The Price / Volume Relationship

[SK0 10]

Meaning if you cross the open of the first bar of a trend?

 

Hi Heisenberg.

 

FYI Mr Black was an excellent JHM trader. He sure knows the simple fundamentals of JHM profoundly and that are all he care. Look at some of his old charts in ET and TL.

 

He was already trading at the tape level, more like a scalper. A scalper usually stays in the market for a few minutes. An excellent scalper reads DOM and T&S. From his opinion about TA, I believe that Mr Black does not need to look at a chart to trade. He was indirectly telling you that minority rules and this is one of the core insights in DOM.

 

May be I can help you to answer the question. No, the signals are inside DOM and T&S.

 

Edited March 29, 2013 by SK0

[vienna 10]

I am not trading JH method....but if you ask me trend lines, and shapes are only in your imagination, and most of TA is crap.....you can't predict what price will do next based on TA principles, Ma's and indicators. The only certain is that most of traders are losers and if you find places where are more of them this is your sweet (G)spot...

 

"but if you ask me trend lines, and shapes are only in your imagination"...

 

!!!!!!!

 

You have got to be kidding me! Of all people- Mr. Black....that is almost like Spyder saying he now realizes TL's don't work...not quite, but close...

 

So- I have to ask- what about your (maybe hundreds) of posts on ET, all these prints showing profitable trades...are you saying you could never reach consistency with this method (=trading with trend lines)?

 

[Heisenberg 10]

You people are so funny it isn't funny anymore...

[Mr_black 10]

You people are so funny it isn't funny anymore...

Yes it is......:rofl:

[cnms2 10]

I miss the times when people discussed various concrete aspects of the Hershey methods trying to improve their knowledge.

 

Without Spydertrader ...

[cnms2 10]

I miss the times when people discussed various concrete aspects of the Hershey methods trying to improve their knowledge.

 

Without Spydertrader ...

A comparative example of a bar-2-bar degapped section vs. its regular charting. In this case the degapped annotation seems clearer.

[xioxxio 10]

A comparative example of a bar-2-bar degapped section vs. its regular charting. In this case the degapped annotation seems clearer.

 

I am not sure how this one example proves anything. It is random in the scheme if things. There are plenty of examples where bars with gaps would give a cleaner container.

 

Please could yourself or PTVtrader elaborate on why it is superior, what am I missing?

 

Thanks

[cnms2 10]

I am not sure how this one example proves anything. It is random in the scheme if things. There are plenty of examples where bars with gaps would give a cleaner container.

 

Please could yourself or PTVtrader elaborate on why it is superior, what am I missing?

 

Thanks

Unfortunately this discussion is marred by misunderstandings, as often happen on internet forums.

 

I'll try to clarify my recent postings:

- I don't use intraday degapping

- I don't have software that does it

- I didn't say that intraday deggaping is superior

- I don't have data and an opinion to compare intraday degapping with non-degapping

- my example above is the first example ever I used to compare a sequence of bars deggaped vs. non-degapped; in this randomly selected example, it seems to me that the degapped sequence identified more clearly the sentiment moves

- my recollection is that the first time I read about intraday degapping, as about day-to-day degapping was from Spydertrader, and only later from Jack, but I don't know who actually invented it

- my current impression, based on their latest posts, is that both Spydertrader and Jack currently use both type of de-gapping

- I find that day-to-day degapping makes sense because RTH market has different characteristics than overnight market; and I believe this is the same justification supported by Jack; I don't recall Spydertrader's justification

- I'm not aware of a justification for intraday degapping from anybody; if I were to guess, I'd say that it emphasizes more what's happening intrabar, putting all bars on the same footing; anyway, encapsulating the price in bars with OHLC points is a form of filtering an information that is by its nature continuous, so it is arbitrary and will always truncate out some data

 

Anyway, people often make statements and argue without providing support for their opinion, while asking others to justify themselves, to invest time and effort for the requester benefit. It can't work.

[FJK 10]

From your chart below, I can see that you've added more customizations to TN. I'm assuming you have the Gold version. Can you elaborate on some of the annotations?

 

I miss the times when people discussed various concrete aspects of the Hershey methods trying to improve their knowledge.

 

Without Spydertrader ...

 

Spyder mentioned intra-day degapping briefly in Vegas. Back then, his opinion was that either you do it, or you don't. As long as you're consistent, it didn't matter.

 

In retrospect, I'm thinking that what he meant was that as long as you're consistent, you're able to probably analyze the signals provided by the market. He left it to each individual to find out if it was a good idea or not to use intra-day de-gapping.

[frenchfry 10]

Interesting how the discussion went so far.

 

Regarding the "new TN template", go to the other website (can I mention it here?). Search for "I did not redo that work." from "Jack Hershey".

 

If I interpret what I think I see and "know" then I would say that here on TL you are still busy with drawing your channels and volume gaussian lines. Price first and then volume. In this case it probably doesn't matter if you degap intraday or not. Maybe.

 

Jack, however looked for ways how to automate SCT. In this case your instructions to the computer have to be absolutely clear. No flaws, no anomalies. Channels? Gaussian lines!? Forget it. Therefore he looks into volume as the leading indicator. But in order to know if he is allowed to use the volume bar he needs to look at price which gives him permission to measure or not. In this scenario he thinks that it is absolutely necessary that price has to be degapped all the time!

 

That is just my interpretation which is usually wrong. Therefore I recommend you ask those who know more for confirmation/clarification: Jack, baro-san, cnms, correy, and all the others hiding.

[xioxxio 10]

Unfortunately this discussion is marred by misunderstandings, as often happen on internet forums.

 

I'll try to clarify my recent postings:

- I don't use intraday degapping

- I don't have software that does it

- I didn't say that intraday deggaping is superior

- I don't have data and an opinion to compare intraday degapping with non-degapping

- my example above is the first example ever I used to compare a sequence of bars deggaped vs. non-degapped; in this randomly selected example, it seems to me that the degapped sequence identified more clearly the sentiment moves

- my recollection is that the first time I read about intraday degapping, as about day-to-day degapping was from Spydertrader, and only later from Jack, but I don't know who actually invented it

- my current impression, based on their latest posts, is that both Spydertrader and Jack currently use both type of de-gapping

- I find that day-to-day degapping makes sense because RTH market has different characteristics than overnight market; and I believe this is the same justification supported by Jack; I don't recall Spydertrader's justification

- I'm not aware of a justification for intraday degapping from anybody; if I were to guess, I'd say that it emphasizes more what's happening intrabar, putting all bars on the same footing; anyway, encapsulating the price in bars with OHLC points is a form of filtering an information that is by its nature continuous, so it is arbitrary and will always truncate out some data

 

Anyway, people often make statements and argue without providing support for their opinion, while asking others to justify themselves, to invest time and effort for the requester benefit. It can't work.

 

I don't make reckless statements like PTVtrader. I am happy to backup statements I make.

 

(would you like a EH on the de-gapped (same 3 bars), I can make it as ugly as you like)

Edited March 31, 2013 by xioxxio

[Tams 20]

for your viewing entertainment

 

 

[cnms2 10]

[/color]

 

I don't make reckless statements like PTVtrader. I am happy to backup statements I make.

 

(would you like a EH on the de-gapped (same 3 bars), I can make it as ugly as you like)

That is not a real example, so it's not useful. Try to look into actual market chart snippets, that are large enough to include at least an observable set of three sentiment moves, like in the example I posted. Maybe you can use Tams charts for this.

 

Market is not random.

[cnms2 10]

From your chart below, I can see that you've added more customizations to TN. I'm assuming you have the Gold version. Can you elaborate on some of the annotations?

 

 

 

Spyder mentioned intra-day degapping briefly in Vegas. Back then, his opinion was that either you do it, or you don't. As long as you're consistent, it didn't matter.

 

In retrospect, I'm thinking that what he meant was that as long as you're consistent, you're able to probably analyze the signals provided by the market. He left it to each individual to find out if it was a good idea or not to use intra-day de-gapping.

I'm not using TN. The example I posted was a cut and paste from Jack's chart posted on ET.

[xioxxio 10]

That is not a real example, so it's not useful. Try to look into actual market chart snippets, that are large enough to include at least an observable set of three sentiment moves, like in the example I posted. Maybe you can use Tams charts for this.

 

Market is not random.

 

I had a good laugh, Do you think Tams chart has all the possible market combinations between gaps and de-gaps?

 

I think you need to re-read what I wrote; I said your example is random NOT the market is random. Big Big Difference.

 

Surely you can see the difference between that?

 

This is where I bow out. Good luck.

[vienna 10]

.......here on TL you are still busy with drawing your channels and volume gaussian lines. Price first and then volume. In this case it probably doesn't matter if you degap intraday or not. Maybe.

 

......Channels? Gaussian lines!? Forget it. Therefore he looks into volume as the leading indicator. ....Therefore I recommend you ask those who know more for confirmation/clarification: Jack, baro-san, cnms, correy, and all the others hiding.

 

This method has morphed from the beginning of ET to the end of the ET threads, then from the beginning of TL to the end of TL (hint:after 2009). So it was probably only a matter of time until somebody said "well maybe we don't need channels at all, including the ftt etc. etc."....feels a bit like the movie "the master", where the dogma keeps changing but the goal remains elusive.

From my personal research, a surprising (to me) number of people which used to be prominent in the different threads seem to either have never mastered it, are trading something else entirely (several told me so), are trading paper or still struggling etc.

 

On the other hand, the (quite few) people that I have met that actually have mastered it, do it with fractals, containers, Ftt's and the whole lot. Hell- some have never even posted on any of the forums!

The temptation to look for a software tweak (de-gapped bars! new indicators!) as the next new thing for salvation is great, I know that...maybe it works for somebody, good for them... these things can be big time wasters though, and- amongst other questions, we have no idea if Jack actually trades this...and it is unlikely we will ever know...I am very grateful to him, but trying to get a clear answer from Jack is like trying to nail oatmeal to a wall, as you all know:

I once tried to run something by him by email. He told me on ET to post a temporary email address and that he would respond. (See ET/Forums - Why does TA not work (for you)?)

I did. No answer. I gently reminded him, he said "my bad" and that he would get in touch. This went back and forth several times...never got my answer and eventually just gave up.......:)

[cnms2 10]

Guys, I understand disappointment and frustration when things don't go as you expect, but shake it off and concentrate ... Many of you have a pretty serious amount of experience with this method to put things head to head even when they're not spelled out for you.

 

All those names basically have correspondence in volume gaussians' points, and all those gaussians have correspondence in the price containers' points. For example: what does T1 mean? It means the crossing of the RTL, the "2" in the x2xyx. Currently many of you do it the other way: you draw price containers, and your volume gaussians just mimic what you think you have in the price pane (which is not exactly correct, and that's why you have difficulties)

 

Jack showed everybody where to look for trading points, he made real-time and anticipatory calls, and he showed that even mechanically applying coarse tools overall you'll be profitable. He showed that you don't have to be always right, that you won't have only winning trades, but that if you consistently stay on the right side of the market you win. He showed that the volume is the independent variable, and that it leads the price.

 

Man up: fight it, or leave it! Don't bitch about it!

[cnms2 10]

I had a good laugh, Do you think Tams chart has all the possible market combinations between gaps and de-gaps?

 

I think you need to re-read what I wrote; I said your example is random NOT the market is random. Big Big Difference.

 

Surely you can see the difference between that?

 

This is where I bow out. Good luck.

Again you misunderstood my post. Relax, take a step back, and think again, ... or not.

[Mr_black 10]

I had a good laugh, Do you think Tams chart has all the possible market combinations between gaps and de-gaps?

 

I think you need to re-read what I wrote; I said your example is random NOT the market is random. Big Big Difference.

 

Surely you can see the difference between that?

 

This is where I bow out. Good luck.

JH method has some working parts and lots of science fiction...its up to you to filter what is working and what is only in Jack's imagination...Do you people remember the name of company that was using JH method for trading futures it was "Peak Trader" something. It was obvious that he is trying to enter the vendors biz....

[river 10]

JH method has some working parts and lots of science fiction...

 

Mr_black,

 

I recall being impressed by many of the charts you posted of trades using the methodology, years ago, on another site. Your quotation above startled and surprised me because you appeared (at that time) to consistently extract meaningful, positive results using the JH method.

 

In your experience, what aspects of the methodology are “science fiction”?

 

-river

[Mr_black 10]

Mr_black,

 

I recall being impressed by many of the charts you posted of trades using the methodology, years ago, on another site. Your quotation above startled and surprised me because you appeared (at that time) to consistently extract meaningful, positive results using the JH method.

 

In your experience, what aspects of the methodology are “science fiction”?

 

-river

Trading whit no Stops..... FTT to FTT ....In my opinion the biggest blunder in JH Method is that he thinks for price and volume like a object like a shape, the shape doesn't means nothing, the price shape is not important , more important is the big money buying or selling .... .if somebody can do it please join to TL Forex Contest and prove it.... I am there and everybody can see My trades..wins and losses...

Edited April 1, 2013 by Mr_black

[river 10]

....In my opinion the biggest blunder in JH Method is that he thinks for price and volume like a object like a shape, the shape doesn't means nothing, the price shape is not important , more important is the big money buying or selling ....

 

Would you mind elaborating a little more on the biggest blunder? Are you referring here to Jack's "The Pattern" (the three price moves on four volume moves per half cycle), or "channels" in general, or something else?

 

Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

-river

[Mr_black 10]

Would you mind elaborating a little more on the biggest blunder? Are you referring here to Jack's "The Pattern" (the three price moves on four volume moves per half cycle), or "channels" in general, or something else?

 

Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

-river[/

There is no pattern, its like if you see sexy blonde ( she is blonde and sexy....pattern, shape ,form) to guess is she smart or dumb....so it can be any pattern, shape or form....and be pretty smart and be any shape or be dumb....There is no pattern....its only one question if you sell on some pattern who is buying from you and why is it smart or dumb...???

[vienna 10]

From my personal research, a surprising (to me) number of people which used to be prominent in the different threads ..... are trading something else entirely.......

 

QED:

".In my opinion the biggest blunder in JH Method is that he thinks for price and volume like a object like a shape, the shape doesn't means nothing, the price shape is not important..."

(Mr. B)

[DbPhoenix 42]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vienna »

From my personal research, a surprising (to me) number of people which used to be prominent in the different threads ..... are trading something else entirely.......

 

QED:

".In my opinion the biggest blunder in JH Method is that he thinks for price and volume like a object like a shape, the shape doesn't means nothing, the price shape is not important..."

(Mr. B)

 

After 4 years and 4000 posts, a pertinent question might be Is anybody making a living by trading in this way?

 

Just curious.