The Price / Volume Relationship

[Heisenberg 10]

I've stated before (in a previous post) that I think it's very difficult to teach and/or learn this method from a forum such as this. So many things are open to misinterpretation. To my knowledge there haven't been a lot of long-term success stories from this thread or previous threads on another site. Many have adapted this method or "merged" it with other ways of viewing the market. And to be honest, spyder changed his own personal approach when he started this thread on TL. Prior to the start of this thread he annotated as many as five or six (or more) gaussian levels, but he never posted those charts in a public forum. However, in 2009, he adjusted his approach to only annotate 3 fractals at most....tape, traverse, & channel.

 

With that said, I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from studying. Just know that it will likely take a long time before you "see" it. It definitely did with me and that was with a lot of support and help outside of this thread. I mentioned before that I privately mentor a small group of folks....but even with the day-to-day support and our frequent discussions, it takes some time for folks to 1. learn the method, and 2. learn to trust what they see and act upon it.

 

It's a process - and not an easy one. Hang in there!!

 

Thank you for explaining. Clearly you cannot privately mentor everyone here on the forum.

 

But, what I really want to know before I spend/lose another ridiculous amount of time trying to learn the method, is that, starting from fall 2010, really everything is there to learn the method succesfully. Because, if not, I'm not going to waste any more time on this. I already wasted way to much time on learning wrong, incomplete or, God forbid, wrong things. I'm asking because you said "most is there".

Otherwise I'd be more than happy to dive in.

 

You were lucky to get support and help outside of this thread, your friends from you, but most of us don't. Just sayin'.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm truly happy for you that you did manage to get it.

 

Heisenberg

[wilddog 10]

I just wanted to point out, that I appreciate your help and I see that many others do as well. When we spoke a couple months ago, it sounded like you were on the fence about getting involved. Many others had expressed the same view as well. Over the past couple of months things have changed, and I genuinely believe that many of us have started to improve.

 

I just wanted to challenge you publicly to not hold back. Share with us detailed answers with graphical explanations. Help provide us with information that is not a replay of the same old record. We may not be your family or good friends, but we are still a community of members that have been working hard together to achieve a common goal.

 

To everyone: Try to avoid repetitive generalities that are undermining and unhelpful. If you are explaining a topic the best you can, then no hurt in that.

 

If you were willing to go into detail on how you build your fractals that would be very helpful. Specifically, how you interpret the volume pace levels in determining the length of the cycle.

 

When your looking for a shift or change (start of B2B or R2R), and your looking to make an entry, what do you specifically look for to confirm that you are seeing Change, and not a continuation of the last leg of the prior trend?

 

Please do not attack other members on this forum. I have read this thread a number of times and the amount of charts Spyder posted fully annotated with explanations on TL, is exactly ZERO.

 

Secondly other people may not be at the same level as you, so things that are not helpful to you may be helpful to others.

 

This is a public forum and treat it as such.

[jbarnby 10]

Thank you for explaining. Clearly you cannot privately mentor everyone here on the forum.

 

But, what I really want to know before I spend/lose another ridiculous amount of time trying to learn the method, is that, starting from fall 2010, really everything is there to learn the method succesfully. Because, if not, I'm not going to waste any more time on this. I already wasted way to much time on learning wrong, incomplete or, God forbid, wrong things. I'm asking because you said "most is there".

Otherwise I'd be more than happy to dive in.

 

You were lucky to get support and help outside of this thread, your friends from you, but most of us don't. Just sayin'.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm truly happy for you that you did manage to get it.

 

Heisenberg

 

Clearly there are spyder "gems" of information scattered throughout this thread. Some of the exchanges around fractals and gaussians in October 2010 could be quite helpful in my opinion.

[FilterTip 10]

The attached chart has several gaussian possibilities.

 

My question, if anyone can help, is as noted on the chart:

 

"Where is the blue thicker line (fractal) FTT ?

Wouldn't we need one in order to start the red thicker line (fractal) ?"

 

There is always the possibility !, that my trend lines are wrong.

But regardless of thickness I think I am correct to say:

that we need an FTT to start a new leg on the same fractal ?

 

If so any feedback is most welcome.

 

thx

[jbarnby 10]

Hmmm....i do have a clear ftt @ 0935 on TradeNavigator. There seems to be a data issue here? edit: upon closer inspection it appears a LOT of your bars display different data than mine. For instance, the open/close is slightly different on many of your bars. I assume the range is different on some as well.

 

The attached chart has several gaussian possibilities.

 

My question, if anyone can help, is as noted on the chart:

 

"Where is the blue thicker line (fractal) FTT ?

Wouldn't we need one in order to start the red thicker line (fractal) ?"

 

There is always the possibility !, that my trend lines are wrong.

But regardless of thickness I think I am correct to say:

that we need an FTT to start a new leg on the same fractal ?

 

If so any feedback is most welcome.

 

thx

[patrader 10]

Spyder gave us a channel drill.So I am writing to suggest to others; those who may have most of the puzzle pieces but are still missing some critical element....work the channel drill until you find the answers. Once you find the solutions the charts will become crystal clear almost overnight. http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/6320-price-volume-relationship-93.html#post76623

 

John

 

A trader can easily learn to differentiate the various tapes, traverses and channels formed by the market, as well as the sequences of Price and Volume which landmark these specific events, by starting with a known entity - one which exhibits certainty as defined by the market itself. Beginning with 10:10 AM on 7-13-2009, and continuing through until 15:30 PM on 8-5-2009 the market has provided just such an event. In addition, beginning with the very same 15:30 PM Bar on 8-5-2009, move forward until 13:30 PM on 8-11-2009 in order to see the exact same event, but in the opposite direction.

 

This Channel Drill requires the trader to construct their charts in such a fashion that one knows with 100% certainty the end has arrived for both entities described above. Whatever solution works for one part of a chart, must work for all charts in the time frames mentioned.

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/6320-price-volume-relationship-56.html#post73139

- Spydertrader

 

Click link, scroll down to "slow download" for the free download.

 

2009_Channel_Drill_ES.rar - download now for free. File sharing. Software file sharing. Free file hosting. File upload. FileFactory.com

 

First known entity lasts for 18 days.Second known entity for 4 days.Hmm.Thought i would repost this information for anyone who missed them and encourage discussion as we work thru this daunting task.hth

[jbarnby 10]

Here's my data for you to compare.

[jbarnby 10]

Click link, scroll down to "slow download" for the free download.

 

2009_Channel_Drill_ES.rar - download now for free. File sharing. Software file sharing. Free file hosting. File upload. FileFactory.com

 

First known entity lasts for 18 days.Second known entity for 4 days.Hmm.Thought i would repost this information for anyone who missed them and encourage discussion as we work thru this daunting task.hth

 

I have to be totally honest - I should retract that post from Sept 2009. The answers I initially thought I found didn't prove consistently successful. IOW, it wasn't just a lateral problem. Turns out I continued to have "fractal issues" that needed to be resolved. It took me considerably more time after this channel drill to sort those out. But I imagine that experience sounds familiar to many of us - thinking we have had a breakthrough only to find it didn't hold up long term. Such is the nature of this journey, right?

[patrader 10]

First 18 day known entity.Thick dark blue vertical lines are start and finish.hth

[patrader 10]

Second known entity charts.Thick dark blue vertical lines are start and finish.hth

[patrader 10]

1-10-13 with volume included for comparison.hth

[NYCMB 10]

What you see is what you get. Look at ehorn next-day's chart I posted too.

Hi SK0,

 

As shown on your annotated chart, there is a down slope of volume from the market open till 13:00. How do you know that you have a dominant traverse? Please see the attached 3Aug4Aug2009 for two full days of chart. TIA

[SK0 10]

Hi SK0,

 

As shown on your annotated chart, there is a down slope of volume from the market open till 13:00. How do you know that you have a dominant traverse? Please see the attached 3Aug4Aug2009 for two full days of chart. TIA

 

Look at the scalloped-shaped volume bars of THAT Down Traverse starting at 13:00. It is non-dominant. What is before this non-dominant move? It must be a dominant move in opposite sentiment. We were given limited information set of context prior to THAT Down Traverse which was the main interest of the drill. So I assumed that some near ending bar of prior day as the start of Up Traverse. Pragmatically for the drill, we wanted to get the RTL of Up Traverse which could be flatten, accelerated or extended.

 

Now, what you see in the declining volume prior to 13:00 is the end effect of one or more pairs of M1 and M2. The volume during this phase is usually much weaker than the initial FTT. Use the Peak at the initial FTT for comparison to see the volume dominance.

 

To know with certainty of having correct annotation, you need to have full information set of context. That is, you must look back in days and aided with 15m, 30m or daily chart to get a swing point that is absolutely the beginning of a Channel or even Super-Channel. Then you build your Channel from there.

Edited January 12, 2013 by SK0

[cnms2 10]

Hi SK0,

 

As shown on your annotated chart, there is a down slope of volume from the market open till 13:00. How do you know that you have a dominant traverse? Please see the attached 3Aug4Aug2009 for two full days of chart. TIA

Don't forget the RTH pace.

[wilddog 10]

SK0 please could you post your annotated chart on this forum.

 

Thanks

[NYCMB 10]

Don't forget the RTH pace.

 

Hi cnms2,

 

RTH pace, Dominant volume slope and Dominant volume slope make my pea brain spinning. Attached is a multi days of 30-minute chart and PV relationship is very tricky. Could you kindly annotate the chart with RTH pace rule being applied and some brief explanation? TIA?

[SK0 10]

SK0 please could you post your annotated chart on this forum.

 

Thanks

 

Sorry that I have annoyed you with my replies to NYCMB. I am not an expert in annotation nor do I care too much. I merely want to live (= trade and learn and horn more advanced skills) with what is given in limited context instead of chasing dream and solving puzzles. I hope that she will figure out she can still live with limited context. Sorry if I annoy you again. I hereby bow out.

[wilddog 10]

Sorry that I have annoyed you with my replies to NYCMB. I am not an expert in annotation nor do I care too much. I merely want to live (= trade and learn and horn more advanced skills) with what is given in limited context instead of chasing dream and solving puzzles. I hope that she will figure out she can still live with limited context. Sorry if I annoy you again. I hereby bow out.

 

 

No need to bow out. Well said. The goal is to make money. There are people out there using parts of this method that are successful.

 

Good luck

[patrader 10]

 

Such is the nature of this journey, right?

 

by starting with a known entity in order to see the exact same event, but in the opposite direction.

- Spydertrader

 

Jbarnby,thank you for that frank reply.You are so correct about the nature of this journey.I think spydertrader had a few reasons for posting this channel drill.One is the huge difference in the amount of days it takes the market to complete "the exact same event" and the hope this would be a wake up call for those learning this method.I believe these "events" spydertrader is referring to are channel fractals.The first event (beginning with 10:10 AM on 7-13-2009 and continuing through until 15:30 PM on 8-5-2009) i think is an up channel fractal event.The second event(15:30 PM Bar on 8-5-2009, move forward until 13:30 PM on 8-11-2009) a down channel fractal.Could it be said that "It doesn't appear you need my help at all" ? Tia

[jbarnby 10]

Jbarnby,thank you for that frank reply.You are so correct about the nature of this journey.I think spydertrader had a few reasons for posting this channel drill.One is the huge difference in the amount of days it takes the market to complete "the exact same event" and the hope this would be a wake up call for those learning this method.I believe these "events" spydertrader is referring to are channel fractals.The first event (beginning with 10:10 AM on 7-13-2009 and continuing through until 15:30 PM on 8-5-2009) i think is an up channel fractal event.The second event(15:30 PM Bar on 8-5-2009, move forward until 13:30 PM on 8-11-2009) a down channel fractal.Could it be said that "It doesn't appear you need my help at all" ? Tia

 

Ha - in all honesty I don't recall that I ever went back and reworked those channels. But yes, those were supposedly channels.

[cnms2 10]

Hi cnms2,

 

RTH pace, Dominant volume slope and Dominant volume slope make my pea brain spinning. Attached is a multi days of 30-minute chart and PV relationship is very tricky. Could you kindly annotate the chart with RTH pace rule being applied and some brief explanation? TIA?

When day-trading, the RTH pace trough affects your analysis. During the midday hours additional faster fractals can be observed. Volume slopes that span over several hours are affected. Money making velocity changes.

 

Your chart doesn't follow the bar coloring recommended for this method.

[cnms2 10]

I thought this might be a fun sequence to bring up for discussion. I have it on "good authority" that this snippet represents a Traverse. For context, this is a non-dominant traverse of a down channel. We have a complete skinny cycle up to 1105, then a down tape followed by an up tape. Would you have seen it as such? Why or why not?

Filtertip's question about that FTT brought to my memory this drill submitted by jbarnby over an year ago: where that container ends, and why?

[wilddog 10]

Thanks for the above drill.

[Heisenberg 10]

Clearly there are spyder "gems" of information scattered throughout this thread. Some of the exchanges around fractals and gaussians in October 2010 could be quite helpful in my opinion.

 

Trying to narrow things down, more specifically, what am I looking for? Posts from Spydertrader, gucci or both?

 

thanks,

Heisenberg

[jbarnby 10]

Trying to narrow things down, more specifically, what am I looking for? Posts from Spydertrader, gucci or both?

 

thanks,

Heisenberg

 

My recommendation is Spydertrader only.