The Price / Volume Relationship

[Corey 10]

...

So Why in Mr Black's chart does he use what he sees in the Price Pane to describe the volume? Am I missing something in this picture? The volume does not appear to reflect decreasing black, and increasing black.

 

See attached Chart

by the power of hindsight, here is my take

[jbarnby 10]

I know this sounds like heresy to some old timers who studied all the journals in the other threads. But if you want to succeed with only three fractals, you need to re-read this thread and throw out everything you thought you learned from the old ET threads. A lot of the old tools, such as the moving average, dom bars and where they close, lateral movement, fbo's, etc, will only lead you astray. I know a lot of folks, like Mr Black, have adapted some of the old rules into a formula that works for them, which is great. But for those that are new, or still searching for success, I might suggest heeding spyder's advice and concentrate exclusively on this thread.

Edited October 19, 2012 by jbarnby
formatting

[Monkman 10]

I know this sounds like heresy to some old timers who studied all the journals in the other threads. But if you want to succeed with only three fractals, you need to re-read this thread and throw out everything you thought you learned from the old ET threads. A lot of the old tools, such as the moving average, dom bars and where they close, lateral movement, fbo's, etc, will only lead you astray. I know a lot of folks, like Mr Black, have adapted some of the old rules into a formula that works for them, which is great. But for those that are new, or still searching for success, I might suggest heeding spyder's advice and concentrate exclusively on this thread.

 

Is there something I am doing from the old threads or is that a general comment to everyone?

 

BTW, thank you for your answer on volume. This is going to help many people here on TL that have been wrestling with the same question.

[cnms2 10]

As many of you know I have been working on these methods for years. Still chugging away at the rigorous learning curve. One issue I noticed recently, in the past, and that has come into the spot light again is how to correctly label the Gaussian formation , so that price can be annotated in sync correctly to reflect it. So after reading over the quote above, for more times than I can count, Spyder states, "In other words, the 'mental image' everyone needs to develop, with respect to a tape, traverse or channel, comes not from the Price Pane, but instead resides in the Volume Pane."

 

So Why in Mr Black's chart does he use what he sees in the Price Pane to describe the volume? Am I missing something in this picture? The volume does not appear to reflect decreasing black, and increasing black.

 

 

See attached Chart

When you annotate and analyze a chart (MAda) you have to remember that trends overlap, so there'll be a group of bars where you can see the old trend fading while the new one is gaining strength. The picture is affected by what's happening on several other fractals than the one you're trading, and in the context of step changes in the pace during the day.

First attachment is a superposition of mr_black's chart over Jack's money velocity diagram.

In the second attachment, I added a few annotations to the volume pane, to emphasize the overlapping of the fading red trend with the rising of the black trend.

[Monkman 10]

This chart was annotated real time today. As with other charts, in my experience, drawing the gaussians to determine the correct cycle order at the tape level can be confusing. Many times I catch mistake within a couple bars other times, the volume formations start to make less and less sense. Then that has been a red flag for me. I go back, and look at the tapes closely especially in the area of overlap between tapes. I know when the tapes overlap aka make the shift, it is during change aka R2R or B2B. Although more confusion arises when the lateral forms. With your typical tapes, FBP, SYM, Stiches, they combine to form a Tape Trend, at the Tape fractal level. With the laterals, you often have Tapes within Tapes ! Especially the laterals that seem to go on for several bars. Then, if you have a complete Tape fractal cycle, with the lateral, say the R2R 2B 2R cycle, how is one suppose to correctly draw the trend lines to represent this tape? Do you consider the lateral's upper and lower trend lines that form the Tape to represent the cycle that the volume pattern shows or do you connect the Tapes within the lateral Tape to form its own Tape trend?

 

Below is my chart for the day with three fractals annotated. I put crosses in gaussians that were wrong real time. You can see what I thought initially, and what conclusion I came to soon after. Since there is only one correct picture according to Spyder, I hope this is close to it.

 

Edited October 19, 2012 by Monkman

[Monkman 10]

When you annotate and analyze a chart (MAda) you have to remember that trends overlap, so there'll be a group of bars where you can see the old trend fading while the new one is gaining strength. The picture is affected by what's happening on several other fractals than the one you're trading, and in the context of step changes in the pace during the day.

First attachment is a superposition of mr_black's chart over Jack's money velocity diagram.

In the second attachment, I added a few annotations to the volume pane, to emphasize the overlapping of the fading red trend with the rising of the black trend.

 

Ok, so basically in Mr. Black's chart he does not include the Tape fractal in his volume annotation? Just the Traverse and Channel? Had he included the Tape fractal, it would have shown the building blocks required to label the traverse correctly?

[jbarnby 10]

Is there something I am doing from the old threads or is that a general comment to everyone?

 

 

It's a general comment to everyone. Within this thread, spyder speaks very specifically about how to reach pt 2 of ANYTHING. And he also talks about how each container must complete an order of events. Now, think of the things (from his old ET journals) that he DOESN'T discuss in this thread. Perhaps there's a very good reason.

[patrader 10]

This chart was annotated real time today.

Monkman a few suggestions.Correct your price and volume colors.Degap your chart.hth

[Monkman 10]

Monkman a few suggestions.Correct your price and volume colors.Degap your chart.hth

 

Does anyone still use Ninjatrader for the ES? To my knowledge it does not contain a de gap function in its GUI options. By chance, has anyone coded it in that would be willing to share?

[FilterTip 10]

Does anyone still use Ninjatrader for the ES? To my knowledge it does not contain a de gap function in its GUI options. By chance, has anyone coded it in that would be willing to share?

 

Hello Monkman

 

Applying it as an "indicator",

"NoGapChart"

try Corey's post # 3409.

 

Kind Regards

FilterTip

Edited October 22, 2012 by FilterTip

[Corey 10]

Hello Monkman

 

Applying it as an "indicator",

"NoGapChart"

try Corey's post # 3409.

 

Kind Regards

FilterTip

also try latest stepan7's work.

[Monkman 10]

also try latest stepan7's work.

 

Yours works nicely. Going to upload my chart later tonight with it on my chart. The only weird thing is that it de gaps all historical bars, not just the previous day and opening bar.

[padrotshik 10]

This chart was annotated real time today. As with other charts, in my experience, drawing the gaussians to determine the correct cycle order at the tape level can be confusing. Many times I catch mistake within a couple bars other times, the volume formations start to make less and less sense. Then that has been a red flag for me. I go back, and look at the tapes closely especially in the area of overlap between tapes. I know when the tapes overlap aka make the shift, it is during change aka R2R or B2B. Although more confusion arises when the lateral forms. With your typical tapes, FBP, SYM, Stiches, they combine to form a Tape Trend, at the Tape fractal level. With the laterals, you often have Tapes within Tapes ! Especially the laterals that seem to go on for several bars. Then, if you have a complete Tape fractal cycle, with the lateral, say the R2R 2B 2R cycle, how is one suppose to correctly draw the trend lines to represent this tape? Do you consider the lateral's upper and lower trend lines that form the Tape to represent the cycle that the volume pattern shows or do you connect the Tapes within the lateral Tape to form its own Tape trend?

 

Below is my chart for the day with three fractals annotated. I put crosses in gaussians that were wrong real time. You can see what I thought initially, and what conclusion I came to soon after. Since there is only one correct picture according to Spyder, I hope this is close to it.

 

As a general suggestion: add the CP4 [clean page 4] to your annotations. It might help you sort the confusions! IMHO.

[Monkman 10]

My ES chart with real time annotations, and corrections. Volume bars scratched out with the blue lines represent what I believed to be mistakes real time, that did not show the correct picture. The laterals tripped me up quite a bit, which I am going to continue to focus upon. Building the tape fractal is still a challenge for me real time, but I think I am getting better. Below is my chart for today.

 

 

BTW my time frame will be fixed soon, hopefully with the help of one of the above scripts. A couple years ago I hired a guy to help update the old one which worked, but turned out a little funky as you can see.

[Monkman 10]

As a general suggestion: add the CP4 [clean page 4] to your annotations. It might help you sort the confusions! IMHO.

 

I am not sure what you mean by CP4. Could you please explain this?

 

I found a Ninjatrader post about some code, and looks like a gold mine of information located here:http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/printthread.php?threadid=229669

 

Not sure which you are referring to.

[padrotshik 10]

I am not sure what you mean by CP4. Could you please explain this?

 

I found a Ninjatrader post about some code, and looks like a gold mine of information located here:Forums - Questions to Jack Hershey

 

Not sure which you are referring to.

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/6320-price-volume-relationship-15.html#post71050

[Monkman 10]

Chart for today, annotated EOD. Around 13:00 you have the volume that goes against the cycle. This may be an indication that some of my volume annotations are wrong.

 

When looking back at the chart today, I was wondering how many Tapes are within the Traverse's R2R or B2B. I know that 2R or 2B there is only one Tape cycle within each Traverse. I would assume that there are two in the B2B or R2R. For example one tape cycle within R2, and one within 2R of the R2R. In the R2R traverse part of the volume cycle would the two tape cycles always show R2R 2B 2R within it? My chart shows a different picture around the 12:30 to 15:50 area, that is adding to the channel building confusion.

 

[Corey 10]

Yours works nicely. Going to upload my chart later tonight with it on my chart. The only weird thing is that it de gaps all historical bars...

yes that is how it's supposed to work.

[FJK 10]

Chart for today, annotated EOD. Around 13:00 you have the volume that goes against the cycle. This may be an indication that some of my volume annotations are wrong.

 

 

Around 12:20 you have a FTT ending a long sequence. Around 14:00 you have another FTT at a higher price than the first, but your Gaussians show we're in a short sequence?!?

 

It seems to me the market is trying to tell you something... :missy:

 

Volume never goes against the cycle, it _drives_ the cycle.

[Frontrunner 10]

I've had a lot of success with this method. While I'm grateful to spyder for his insights and guidance, most of my success came through self-discovery, using the basics described in this and other threads. I will upload a couple of recent Traverses in hopes that it might encourage others. Success will only come after you achieve complete understanding of how to build containers correctly and manage fractal nesting,

 

hello J, had a question about your chart dated 10-3. Bar 15:25 is clearly braking the purple containers right TL on increasing black volume and closes strongly outside of it yet you show the volume gaussian as a non dom move. would you be kind enough to explain

 

thanks in advance

[Monkman 10]

Around 12:20 you have a FTT ending a long sequence. Around 14:00 you have another FTT at a higher price than the first, but your Gaussians show we're in a short sequence?!?

 

It seems to me the market is trying to tell you something... :missy:

 

Volume never goes against the cycle, it _drives_ the cycle.

 

FJK, I re did some of the gaussians on the chart to reflect the FTT from the 12:20 and 14:05 mark. Below is the chart.

 

In regards to the volume cycle, I completely agree with you that volume drives the cycle. But why is it that we need confirmation of what price reflects when volume alone is inadequate to see the correct picture? For example, the 12:55, 13:00, and 13:05 bars are clearly incrementally increasing in volume. That part of the R2R 2B cycle tells us to draw a black decreasing sloping trend line in the volume pane, in order to match the current cycle. We know there are only two cycles, B2B 2R 2B, and R2R 2B 2R, both have to complete in order for a new cycle to begin. In this example, it appears that Price takes precedence over volume in reflecting the current cycle.

 

Furthermore, a second example is during 10:35, to 10:40, to 10:45, showing incrementally decreasing volume bars, in the R2R 2B 2R part of the cycle. This again is labeled with an increasing red trend line, when volume visually shows itself to be decreasing. It appears a shift/change is also occurring at this point because of the overlap in Tapes with a change to B2B.

 

Am I wrong on this? If not, how does one get confirmation real time that the tape fractal is correctly represented with this volume phenomenon? Thank you.

[Monkman 10]

For those that have pmed or posted here with helpful tips. I cannot thank you enough. Every little bit helps. Yesterday, I received a message that suggested I should annotate all the ten tapes, and connect them. That would alleviate the guessing of containers building to the traverse level. As pointed out, it appears I have been doing quite a bit of guess work.

 

In the chart below I annotated the AM real time, midday and afternoon were EOD. As suggested I annotated the fastest tapes, connected them (I hope I did this correctly), and then matched the volume cycles with the tapes.

 

I think if I can become consist with building the to block to form correct tapes, with correct volume(cycle) annotations, then it may make it much easier to label the volume for the traverses and channels.

 

 

[cnms2 10]

... In the chart below I annotated the AM real time, midday and afternoon were EOD ...

Today Jack posted his trades for the first part of the day. See if they fit your tapes:

bar1 short

bar 5 long

bar 9 short

bar 17 long

bar 22 short

bar 29 long

bar 32 short

bar 36 long

[Monkman 10]

Today Jack posted his trades for the first part of the day. See if they fit your tapes:

bar1 short

bar 5 long

bar 9 short

bar 17 long

bar 22 short

bar 29 long

bar 32 short

bar 36 long

 

Very interesting, Jack is dam good at what he does not doubt. His long trade on bar 5 looks brutal though. It appears he held through around a 2pt loss at one point before he reversed on bar 9 to short.

 

The volume and tape annotations appear correct to me. I am guessing he held on bar 36 because of the lateral flaw, which from my understanding he holds through flaws. So my decreasing red , on the tape fractal may be pre mature.

 

I have made several trades in the past, but am not confident in my trading until I can consistently nest these fractals correctly real time.

[cnms2 10]

Very interesting, Jack is dam good at what he does not doubt. His long trade on bar 5 looks brutal though. It appears he held through around a 2pt loss at one point before he reversed on bar 9 to short. ...

Jack "knows that he knows". Remember: he doesn't know what the price will do; he just stays always on the right side of the market, in the present.