The Price / Volume Relationship

[ivob 10]

 

You probably are very sensitized to Price bar behavior,

 

thanks,

 

Vienna

 

That is true... Of course the issue is to be "sensitized" on the right moment (context) and not to see "change" on a micoscopic level somewhere where it doesn't matter much.. New lows, new highs, RTL, LTL are good moments.

 

Sometimes a clear outside bar doesn't mean much...and sometimes one tick means a big change. It's very subtle, delicate. You have to know when to look for things. Actually when it seems obvious (for the outside world, not for trained FTT traders) it's probably not true as it's the markets job to f**k people.

 

Ivo

[gamblerKi 10]

Hi all,

 

I can only identify traverse FTT bars after the traverse RTL is broken, i.e. several bars later than the FTT bar.

 

Do you guys have any lagging in identifying the FTT bar? Are you able to spot a FTT bar during its formation?

 

TIA.

 

Regards,

Ki

[vienna 10]

Hi Vienna,

 

It would be interesting to make screenshots of all different kinds of FTT's that exists and learn about them. Even better: video capture.

 

Ivo

 

Ivo,

 

great stuff...love the explanation about the timing.

Had been thinking about doing exactly that (the screenshots or the camtasia), or to collect them in a systematic way. After reading your comments I made a schematic drawing about the cases that can occur at FTT's (XIO see the IBGS)...Ivo -I know you hate the terms

Of course these are schematics, for example the VE could occur 2 bars earlier etc...

I indicated the breakout point that would have to occur to confirm the FTT after the fact...

Note that the .pdf file has 2 pages.

 

What might be interesting is to add volume/ PRV that one would expect to see in these situations...maybe I'll give it a shot.

 

good trading,

 

Vienna

FTT CASES.pdf

Edited October 9, 2011 by vienna

[vienna 10]

Ivo,

 

one more:

 

Any thoughts about FBO's?

When do your recognize it is an FBO and not a BO? I seem to have gotten out of trades that closed right at the line (with dec. Volume,sometimes increasing), then the next bar went thru and I realized I had gotten out too early..sometimes the opposite etc.

 

What do you look for to tell you if it's the real thing?

 

Thanks,

 

Vienna

[xioxxio 10]

I have attached the SPI futures from today. I would like to get expert opinions.

 

Thanks

[ivob 10]

Well this is all static and there are some more options. For example there's the Sym pennant/inside bar FTT...which I would enter after breakout instead of in the inside bar itself...

 

The entry of the 1st case I find a little early. I'd wait for price to pass the open.

 

Just look for FTT anytime after a VE. If you're in a position that VE might be a great moment to take profits which is hard pyschologically (but what isn't.??)....freeing your mind and look for the next opportunity which might be one bar later. Sometimes there is no VE...sometimes in slow market price keeps on hugging the RTL and then suddenly might go thru it. Allow yourself only a great entry (FTT, pt 3) else there's a good chance you would catch a point 2 or worse.

 

Ivo

 

 

 

 

Ivo,

 

great stuff...love the explanation about the timing.

Had been thinking about doing exactly that (the screenshots or the camtasia), or to collect them in a systematic way. After reading your comments I made a schematic drawing about the cases that can occur at FTT's (XIO see the IBGS)...Ivo -I know you hate the terms

Of course these are schematics, for example the VE could occur 2 bars earlier etc...

I indicated the breakout point that would have to occur to confirm the FTT after the fact...

Note that the .pdf file has 2 pages.

 

What might be interesting is to add volume/ PRV that one would expect to see in these situations...maybe I'll give it a shot.

 

good trading,

 

Vienna

Edited October 10, 2011 by ivob

[ivob 10]

If price goes sideways thru the RTL and there's not much happening then it's just the volatility that decreased...but the original channel is still intact.The channel is just widening. It's important for bars to let them finish.

 

If price goes thru the RTL and bounces back making a tail (in candlestick terms) it FBO's.

 

In general a BO needs to be strong (Spyder says increasing volume). Else it might be FBO, channel widening, create a point 3 right after it and you get chopped 2 or 3 times. A BO has to convince me... (WOW....nice BO) else I am on the lookout for the FBO.

 

 

 

Ivo

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ivo,

 

one more:

 

Any thoughts about FBO's?

When do your recognize it is an FBO and not a BO? I seem to have gotten out of trades that closed right at the line (with dec. Volume,sometimes increasing), then the next bar went thru and I realized I had gotten out too early..sometimes the opposite etc.

 

What do you look for to tell you if it's the real thing?

 

Thanks,

 

Vienna

[ivob 10]

I was thinking about the question....

 

At BO price acts as if the RTL simply does not exists anymore... (which in fact is true...).... It should go thru without hesitation. If it hesitates...goes up and down wildly..etc then apparently there are still some issues there at RTL and buyers and sellers are still in balance (high volume...I guess). Price will probably FBO and the original trendline respected.

 

When price simply goes thru (without hesitation!! and not sideways) then it's not there anymore. We have BO. As long there's no BO we have FBO.

 

Ivo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ivo,

 

 

What do you look for to tell you if it's the real thing?

[vienna 10]

Well this is all static and there are some more options. For example there's the Sym pennant/inside bar FTT...which I would enter after breakout instead of in the inside bar itself...

 

The entry of the 1st case I find a little early. I'd wait for price to pass the open.

 

 

 

Ivo

 

Yes, saw after doing them that I had missed some...Outside bar IBGS too... will adjust. And yes, of course it's static

[gamblerKi 10]

I have attached the SPI futures from today. I would like to get expert opinions.

 

Thanks

 

 

Hi xioxxio,

 

The dark blue FTT cannot be the point 2 of the same container.

 

 

Regards,

 

Ki

[vienna 10]

The entry of the 1st case I find a little early. I'd wait for price to pass the open.

 

 

 

Ivo

 

In that case, you would have the case next row down- IBGS.

 

I guess you are saying that the only way you would enter a "Case A or B" entry (the FTT bar creates both a LL and a LH) would be if you get an IBGS, intrabar?

 

 

thanks,

 

Vienna

[ivob 10]

I don't know the exact definition of an IBGS. It's just that that entry seems a little early for me. I would wait for the same bar to close above the open or the next bar to go to that area see attach. The low of that bar is too close to the low of the previous bar also... looking flawish to me...

 

I recorded my EURUSD session today, just for myself with comments. I noticed I followed the rules better and the results were better also. Will do that more often.

 

Ivo

 

 

 

In that case, you would have the case next row down- IBGS.

 

I guess you are saying that the only way you would enter a "Case A or B" entry (the FTT bar creates both a LL and a LH) would be if you get an IBGS, intrabar?

 

 

thanks,

 

Vienna

Edited October 10, 2011 by ivob

[vienna 10]

 

I recorded my EURUSD session today, just for myself with comments.

Ivo

 

What do you use? Camtasia?

[gosu 10]

Recording the trading day is very good. I monitor aloud and record that as well. I recommend it highly.

[ivob 10]

Yes. I trade more responsible so it seems. (not to be confused with "waiting for confirmation" because that is always bad). It's like you have to explain to someone your reasoning for what you do. I use Camtasia.

 

Ivo

 

 

Recording the trading day is very good. I monitor aloud and record that as well. I recommend it highly.

[gosu 10]

Yes. I trade more responsible so it seems. (not to be confused with "waiting for confirmation" because that is always bad). It's like you have to explain to someone your reasoning for what you do. I use Camtasia.

 

Ivo

 

I like to keep focused on the monitoring as much as possible and avoid explanations or reasoning in the audio. That way, if I review a segment I know exactly what I was picking up in my sweep of the screens.

[vienna 10]

I like to keep focused on the monitoring as much as possible and avoid explanations or reasoning in the audio. That way, if I review a segment I know exactly what I was picking up in my sweep of the screens.

 

Gosu, Ivo:

 

So how exactly do you use Camtasia? Do you record the whole day and then review parts in the evening? Do you review the whole thing hi-speed?

Do you just turn on Camtasia when a trade is coming up?

 

Thanks,

 

Vienna

[vienna 10]

Well this is all static and .....

 

Ivo

 

Ivo,

 

Believe it or not, I was thinking of adding the variations I did not pick up the first time (and I found quite a few, each case can look completely different Intrabar) and then actually creating a flash animation for each instance...

 

Vienna

[ivob 10]

Here's something that took me a long long time to understand...That you don't find in the "textbook"

 

I deleted the last bar BTW.

 

I am long...

 

We just had BO...but also we had a VE and a FTT....and no point 3 up yet....

 

So what do we do? Do we reverse...we did notice the FTT.... Our point 3 up might take us far far up...... (actually it did, 40 pips or so and I am still long..)

 

In my opinion always do what we see last... we saw the FTT so reverse..(we have to make profit no) and the point 3 up might come later which we would also trade. The FTT where we should reverse can be ignored...but that would be completely conscious...knowing a point 3 up will come. If you give up on the FTT you have to be ready to take some heat...and know a pt3 may come... If you take the FTT while the bar is forming...and you took the point 3 up (which came pretty fast after that) you would have almost no loss, depending on how quickly one would see things.

 

I can't tell how often this went wrong.. I just kept holding (we had BO...BO=hold)....

Sure of course..BO means hold.. but FTT after that means reverse!!!! The most recent thing counts so always have the channels in place because we might get FTT quickly.. (Hell..sometimes we have PT3, BO and FTT in one bar!!!) Often I did not notice the FTT....didn't have the channel lines in place etc.etc.. So we trade the FTT...no matter if we just had BO or not...FTT is FTT. The point 3 up later on might be another FTT and might take an hour to form!!!!

 

Posting this because I struggled with it a lot. All it requires is to have all trendlines in place and to notice things. Wrong or no channels means mistakes.

 

regards,

Ivo

Edited October 11, 2011 by ivob

[Corey 10]

Here's something that took me a long long time to understand...That you don't find in the "textbook"

 

I deleted the last bar BTW.

 

I am long...

 

We just had BO...but also we had a VE and a FTT....and no point 3 up yet....

 

So what do we do? Do we reverse...we did notice the FTT.... Our point 3 up might take us far far up...... (actually it did, 40 pips or so and I am still long..)

..

regards,

Ivo

you gave away the ending so this is just my 2cents, you had order of event 3 red arrows (down+up+down) so the next order of events is 3 blue arrows (up+down+up) you already had 2 B/Os, 2 yellow arrows so it was a strong case for holding long.

[ivob 10]

This is setting yourself up for failure. (IMO) check my attach...

 

It worked out in this case but I disagree because the next time it won't work out and I know the solution so it works out in any case: Just take the FTT and go long again next bar when the FTT is invalided... I would have lost 2 pips... (or made 1 depending how quick I would be) and above all would have been on the correct side of the market again.

 

You have to follow the rules and take the FTT short. You cannot predict price will go up. You can only see change and act on it. It was change to the short side. Most BO's fail and I have seen dozens of similar examples where taking the FTT would have been better and holding would have killed you.. Actually especially today...has been very choppy. It was risky to hold..... It would have been better to reverse and reverse back.

 

regards,

Ivo

 

 

 

 

 

you gave away the ending so this is just my 2cents, you had order of event 3 red arrows (down+up+down) so the next order of events is 3 blue arrows (up+down+up) you already had 2 B/Os, 2 yellow arrows so it was a strong case for holding long.

Edited October 11, 2011 by ivob

[Corey 10]

This is setting yourself up for failure. (IMO) check my attach...

 

It worked out in this case but I disagree because the next time it won't work out and I know the solution so it works out in any case: Just take the FTT and go long again next bar when the FTT is invalided... I would have lost 2 pips... (or made 1 depending how quick I would be) and above all would have been on the correct side of the market again.

 

You have to follow the rules and take the FTT short. You cannot predict price will go up. You can only see change and act on it. It was change to the short side. Most BO's fail and I have seen dozens of similar examples where taking the FTT would have been better and holding would have killed you.. Actually especially today...has been very choppy. It was risky to hold..... It would have been better to reverse and reverse back.

 

regards,

Ivo

I see without volume there is no anticipation only trade what you see, more washes but less holding on to wrong way trade, thanks.

[gosu 10]

Gosu, Ivo:

 

So how exactly do you use Camtasia? Do you record the whole day and then review parts in the evening? Do you review the whole thing hi-speed?

Do you just turn on Camtasia when a trade is coming up?

 

Thanks,

 

Vienna

 

I record the entire day and premarket when there are major announcements. Sometimes I will record the night session if I'm trading.

 

When I started the recordings, I used them to go over my screwups (in normal speed) to see what I was monitoring at the time. It was quite helpful to see replayed how my monitoring was almost always spot on but my stubbornness led to ignoring what I was monitoring.

 

Nowadays I rarely go back to review the recordings. This is more because of lack of time than anything else. I have no doubt that there's a lot more to learn in the videos.

[vienna 10]

I record the entire day and premarket when there are major announcements. Sometimes I will record the night session if I'm trading.

 

When I started the recordings, I used them to go over my screwups to see what I was monitoring at the time. It was quite helpful to see replayed how my monitoring was almost always spot on but my stubbornness led to ignoring what I was monitoring.

 

Nowadays I rarely go back to review the recordings. This is more because of lack of time than anything else. I have no doubt that there's a lot more to learn in the videos.

 

Gosu,

 

you wrote "Nowadays I rarely go back to review the recordings."...then why do you record (if not to review/ debrief)?

 

Thanks,

 

Vienna

[patrader 10]

Here's something that took me a long long time to understand...That you don't find in the "textbook"

 

I deleted the last bar BTW.

 

I am long...

 

We just had BO...but also we had a VE and a FTT....and no point 3 up yet....

 

So what do we do? Do we reverse...we did notice the FTT.... Our point 3 up might take us far far up...... (actually it did, 40 pips or so and I am still long..)

 

In my opinion always do what we see last... we saw the FTT so reverse..(we have to make profit no) and the point 3 up might come later which we would also trade. The FTT where we should reverse can be ignored...but that would be completely conscious...knowing a point 3 up will come. If you give up on the FTT you have to be ready to take some heat...and know a pt3 may come... If you take the FTT while the bar is forming...and you took the point 3 up (which came pretty fast after that) you would have almost no loss, depending on how quickly one would see things.

 

I can't tell how often this went wrong.. I just kept holding (we had BO...BO=hold)....

Sure of course..BO means hold.. but FTT after that means reverse!!!! The most recent thing counts so always have the channels in place because we might get FTT quickly.. (Hell..sometimes we have PT3, BO and FTT in one bar!!!) Often I did not notice the FTT....didn't have the channel lines in place etc.etc.. So we trade the FTT...no matter if we just had BO or not...FTT is FTT. The point 3 up later on might be another FTT and might take an hour to form!!!!

 

Posting this because I struggled with it a lot. All it requires is to have all trendlines in place and to notice things. Wrong or no channels means mistakes.

 

regards,

Ivo

 

First post is 10-6-11 thru 10-11-11 with the carryover RTL(slow up container) in place from 10-10-11.Second post shows the RTL(slow up container) bounce and completion of the non dom pink container on a test of the bm(see circle highlite).hth