Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

Recommended Posts

I believe you mean container from 1 & 2 and container from pt3 to ftt, no? This rule is a tough one for me... I've tried using it but I never got to where I trusted it. Is this a hard or soft rule for you? (on a scale of 1 to 10).

...

Is this good analysis?

I really meant 1-2 and 2-3 are built the same way, and 3- was not yet built that way after those 3 black bars (11:35). See attached.

I don't do the kind of analysis you're proposing, so I have no opinion on it.

5aa710764f4f1_SpyderQ1-3tapes.png.df0346ec4fac6e0ab9daaa1098cfc252.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I really meant 1-2 and 2-3 are built the same way, and 3- was not yet built that way after those 3 black bars (11:35). See attached.

I don't do the kind of analysis you're proposing, so I have no opinion on it.

 

Understood.

 

So is your rule:

 

IF 1-2 AND 2-3 are built in the same manner THEN 3 - end will also be built in that manner

 

OR

 

Given 1-2 being built in a certain manner THEN 2-3 AND 3- will be built in the same manner as 1-2

 

OR some other variant :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Understood.

 

So is your rule:

 

IF 1-2 AND 2-3 are built in the same manner THEN 3 - end will also be built in that manner

 

OR

 

Given 1-2 being built in a certain manner THEN 2-3 AND 3- will be built in the same manner as 1-2

 

OR some other variant :)

I'd word it like this: a container is made of three sub-containers, and three containers form a super-container, keeping in mind that at faster paces a container might look like a sub-container, and at slower paces it might look like a super-container. This is not my rule, it is one of the basic principles of the market operation that this method is based on. Others observed this fractal structure too, e.g. the Elliott waves.

 

In the discussed example, after those three black bars you had what looked lika just a sub-container.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd word it like this: a container is made of three sub-containers, and three containers form a super-container, keeping in mind that at faster paces a container might look like a sub-container, and at slower paces it might look like a super-container.

 

Yes. To re-state as a rule: as pace decreases the likelihood of seeing faster fractals increases... and as pace increases the likelihood of seeing faster fractals decreases.

 

In the discussed example, after those three black bars you had what looked like just a sub-container.

 

I don't like "looked like" :) I like IS. So ...is this the logic:

 

On the day of our example a B2B container formed on our trading fractal at the highest pace levels. This B2B had clearly articulated sub-containers (faster fractal movement). Therefore we can assume that for THAT DAY containers forming on our trading fractal at all pace levels will result in faster fractal movement being articulated.

 

(Sorry I tried to make it as concise as possible... best I could do).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Attached are hindsight annotations for 2 traverses from today's ES. 3 levels of price and volume gaussians are annotated. Hopefully the color coding is obvious (all of the fastest fractal things are gray on price).

 

The TLs for the carryover short have been degapped.

 

I don't have my pace lines in place because I recently switched to ninjatrader and I still need to code 'em up.

 

Please critique.

5aa710765debb_ES06-11(5Min)5_10_2011.thumb.jpg.337de9f50807096a2d48449812e14a50.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't like "looked like" :) I like IS. So ...is this the logic:

 

On the day of our example a B2B container formed on our trading fractal at the highest pace levels. This B2B had clearly articulated sub-containers (faster fractal movement). Therefore we can assume that for THAT DAY containers forming on our trading fractal at all pace levels will result in faster fractal movement being articulated.

 

FWIW, I don't believe that will prove to be a reliable hypothesis. Careful with assumptions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FWIW, I don't believe that will prove to be a reliable hypothesis. Careful with assumptions.

 

OK - I think we all agree that pace regulates how much or how little faster fractal "stuff" one sees during the day. How would you phrase a rule regarding pace and visible/not visible sub-fractals?

 

No "tends to" No "looks like" - I mean an ALWAYS rule. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
OK - I think we all agree that pace regulates how much or how little faster fractal "stuff" one sees during the day. How would you phrase a rule regarding pace and visible/not visible sub-fractals?

 

No "tends to" No "looks like" - I mean an ALWAYS rule. :)

 

You're not going to like this, but rules will get you into trouble. There are too many examples to go into, here's one:

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/34/price-volume-relationship-6320-144.html#post116745

 

For this case IMO you need to observe what the market is doing. Not that it conforms to a specific rule set. We've been warned against making rules vs. guidelines because rules don't allow you to account for other contexts you may not have considered.

 

So more questions: If you see sub-fractals on one leg is it a requirement that you see them on all legs? Or see the same amount (or levels) of sub fractals on each leg?

 

That may or may not be helpful as you test your theory:

This B2B had clearly articulated sub-containers (faster fractal movement). Therefore we can assume that for THAT DAY containers forming on our trading fractal at all pace levels will result in faster fractal movement being articulated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You're not going to like this, but rules will get you into trouble. There are too many examples to go into, here's one:

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/34/price-volume-relationship-6320-144.html#post116745

 

IMO PV trading is 100% rules based... it's just that the rules can seem complex because they employ deductive logic. Also the rules are extremely context sensitive and I believe this is the point you are trying to make.

 

So a rule about rules :) Rules will get you in trouble if you are not mindful of the context.

 

About the snippet you referred to... IMO there was nothing wrong with Breakeven's application of rules in principle. The problem was that his rule for lats is too simplistic... there was no lat in the B2B (Ezzy I believe this drives home the point you and gucci were trying to make - mindless application of rules can get you in trouble).

 

For this case IMO you need to observe what the market is doing. Not that it conforms to a specific rule set.

 

By "this case" are you referring to the 5 bar sequence I highlighted in earlier posts along with the question of why we can't put a thick gaussian over it?

 

So more questions: If you see sub-fractals on one leg is it a requirement that you see them on all legs? Or see the same amount (or levels) of sub fractals on each leg?

 

Both of these are pretty easy to trivially reject because of the word requirement.

 

So - you can't be telling me that pace is useless as a BINARY/DIGITAL/Yes/No operator!?

 

What I was getting at in my original rule may have been too obfuscated. Let me rephrase it:

 

ON THAT DAY (i.e. for the given context) a trading fractal B2B formed on extraordinary pace (highest level) and exhibited 1 level of observable sub-containers. THEREFORE unless there is a dramatic shift up in pace to extra-extraordinary we KNOW that the 2R and 2B portions on the trading fractal will AT LEAST show 1 level of observable sub-containers.

Breakeven_snippet.thumb.jpg.80a0f7c1d4f4cf351104a49708d2bb4b.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IMO PV trading is 100% rules based...

With my current understanding I disagree. Binary yes, rules no. But some may argue that it's a set of binary rules.

 

About the snippet you referred to... IMO there was nothing wrong with Breakeven's application of rules in principle. The problem was that his rule for lats is too simplistic... there was no lat in the B2B (Ezzy I believe this drives home the point you and gucci were trying to make - mindless application of rules can get you in trouble).

It was in reference to a different chart that didn't have a lateral.

 

In the other chart with a lateral, following the lateral rules there are two places they can be drawn in. Whether they are valid or at what point they end was a part of the issue.

 

Many times I was told "do not make this into a rule." I understand that now, trying to pass it along. The rules upon rules with qualifiers thing was a hindrance.

 

By "this case" are you referring to the 5 bar sequence I highlighted in earlier posts along with the question of why we can't put a thick gaussian over it?

 

Because you were creating rules to apply to this section, yes, but also in general. Could remove "this case."

 

Start the thick from the get go because it's what you are building next regardless of how many sub fractals show up.

 

Both of these are pretty easy to trivially reject because of the word requirement.

 

So - you can't be telling me that pace is useless as a BINARY/DIGITAL/Yes/No operator!?

No, not saying that.

 

What I was getting at in my original rule may have been too obfuscated. Let me rephrase it:

 

ON THAT DAY (i.e. for the given context) a trading fractal B2B formed on extraordinary pace (highest level) and exhibited 1 level of observable sub-containers. THEREFORE unless there is a dramatic shift up in pace to extra-extraordinary we KNOW that the 2R and 2B portions on the trading fractal will AT LEAST show 1 level of observable sub-containers.

 

I have seen too many examples of certain sacred unbreakable rules being broken to state something so absolute. If you find that it works for you, great, go with it. It might work out that way most of the time.

 

For me it immediately brings to mind a chart where I know it doesn't work out. So maybe another rule is added to account for that, or you find a different way to look at it. Just my :2c: worth what you paid for it.

 

Regards,

 

EZ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Comments much appreciated EZ...

 

Many times I was told "do not make this into a rule." I understand that now, trying to pass it along. The rules upon rules with qualifiers thing was a hindrance.

 

OK - yes this statement gets at the heart of the matter... advice taken. The talk about rules was slipping into semantics... so I'll be more careful with word choice.

 

Start the thick from the get go because it's what you are building next regardless of how many sub fractals show up.

 

So let's get back to square 1. We agree that we can draw a thick line in. cnms2 suggested that pace tells us to expect a sub-fractal. I postulated that bar-by-bar analysis says that the first tape didn't actually have a dominant black in it so it could not constitute FTT.

 

How would you personally handle that decision point? ..what are your tells from the market?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...

 

I don't have my pace lines in place because I recently switched to ninjatrader and I still need to code 'em up.

 

Please critique.

you plan to re-code all p-v indicators?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
you plan to re-code all p-v indicators?

 

I pieced together most of it from scripts others have contributed... I didn't mind redoing some stuff because the original code was not written to my liking and I wanted to get my hands dirty with ninja script.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I pieced together most of it from scripts others have contributed... I didn't mind redoing some stuff because the original code was not written to my liking and I wanted to get my hands dirty with ninja script.

 

in the spirit of community,

you should share your enhancements.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
in the spirit of community,

you should share your enhancements.

 

I use the standard PV bar coloring, PRV and pace... that's it. I'm a software guy so my "enhancements" are purely code style issues.

 

Is there a need for an automated pace script for NT? I didn't find one but I also didn't look very hard :) (took about 10 minutes in between forming bars)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a VERY informative chart to study the interlocking of various fractals. Remember, noise does NOT exist.

 

When studying the chart keep in mind:

 

 

"The pattern has a defined ending after point 3 and the three iterative refinements are part of dealing with the end effects. Any trip across the parallelogram on dominant volume after point 3 prolongs the parallelogram if and only if the volume dominates and price responds to "traverse". A signal is generated when volume no longer "pushes" price to a better place in the traverse. This occurance is an ftt." (Quote from Jack)

Fractals.thumb.jpg.f0e0fde18baa882780e5e6ee0eced9b3.jpg

Edited by gucci

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"The pattern has a defined ending after point 3 and the three iterative refinements are part of dealing with the end effects. Any trip across the parallelogram on dominant volume after point 3 prolongs the parallelogram if and only if the volume dominates and price responds to "traverse". A signal is generated when volume no longer "pushes" price to a better place in the traverse. This occurance is an ftt." (Quote from Jack)

 

So... the quote is in reference to the 2X portion of X2X 2Y 2X... see attached attempts to apply the logic to your posted chart. Have I applied the logic correctly?

 

I do not understand what the highlighted phrase refers to... what are the "three iterative refinements" ? ...maybe the 3 levels of Gaussians and corresponding levels in price?

gucci_chart1.thumb.jpg.4e6567c4a525dd6306d086a73a2258b6.jpg

gucci_chart2.thumb.jpg.a546d331a5a722ac6d4ae08c70338bea.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This chart can also clear a lot of things up.

 

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=2133515

 

Very interesting chart! Thanks for posting.

 

I understand the slower fractal orange and blue objects.

I understand the faster fractal pink object.

I do NOT understand the green object (highlighted on attachment)

 

Point 3 of the slower fractal orange thing overlaps with Point 2 of the faster fractal green thing... I thought this was "invalid" ... it's like the slower fractal thing is ending inside the faster fractal thing before the faster fractal thing completes. It's like a snake eating itself :)

 

Is there a good reason to even bother annotating the green thing? .. or is it essential to seeing where we are in the sequence of things.

spyder_chartQ2.thumb.jpg.25bd6b6cb9bf4ace1ed6f59161363e80.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So let's get back to square 1. We agree that we can draw a thick line in. cnms2 suggested that pace tells us to expect a sub-fractal.

 

It's good advice. He also said:

 

The way I understand this method, one trades only what one sees, and not what one expects to happen. Also, as volume leads price, sequences pictured by my volume annotations lead sequences pictured by my price annotations.

 

I postulated that bar-by-bar analysis says that the first tape didn't actually have a dominant black in it so it could not constitute FTT.

 

Maybe a similar thing is going on with your analysis?:

 

About the snippet you referred to... IMO there was nothing wrong with Breakeven's application of rules in principle. The problem was that his rule for lats is too simplistic... there was no lat in the B2B (Ezzy I believe this drives home the point you and gucci were trying to make - mindless application of rules can get you in trouble).

 

How would you personally handle that decision point? ..what are your tells from the market?

 

See my first reply.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Ezzy for your reply... you are trying to help me and I appreciate it!

 

As is often the case with this method the words can get in the way... soo I'm going to try a slightly different approach. :)

 

In my attachment I've numbered some bars.

 

The market has provided B2B 2R on the "THICK" fractal. We KNOW and can EXPECT that it will give us 2B on the THICK fractal... with 100% certainty.

 

On which bar # do you KNOW that as the market is forming the 2B it is articulating B2B on the MEDIUM fractal (1st sub-fractal) and why?

bar_by_bar.thumb.jpg.53d8c73e8dac30853871a9bbe76c8f4d.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is a VERY informative chart to study the interlocking of various fractals. Remember, noise does NOT exist.

 

When studying the chart keep in mind:

 

 

"The pattern has a defined ending after point 3 and the three iterative refinements are part of dealing with the end effects. Any trip across the parallelogram on dominant volume after point 3 prolongs the parallelogram if and only if the volume dominates and price responds to "traverse". A signal is generated when volume no longer "pushes" price to a better place in the traverse. This occurance is an ftt." (Quote from Jack)

Hi everybody

 

I am new to this method and after reading and studying this thread and also a lot on ET forum , I am somewhat stuck on the way to draw gaussians.

Gucci I looked over your chart and tried to establish the same on my own.

Between bar 10 and 20 I am doing something wrong .

Do I mix fractal levels ? if so how do i recognize that.

Or am I drawing these gaussians completely wrong .

TIA

DrawGaussian1.thumb.png.79e860b50fbf292b08edadb10acd1d50.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
    • NFLX Netflix stock watch, local support and resistance areas at 838.12 and 880.5 at https://stockconsultant.com/?NFLX
    • Date: 8th April 2025.   Markets Rebound Cautiously as US-China Tariff Tensions Deepen     Global markets staged a tentative recovery on Tuesday following a wave of volatility sparked by escalating trade tensions between the United States and China. The Asia-Pacific region showed signs of stability after a chaotic start to the week—though some pockets remained under pressure. Taiwan’s Taiex dropped 4.4%, dragged lower by losses in tech heavyweight TSMC. The world’s largest chipmaker fell another 4% on Tuesday and has now slumped 13.5% since April 2, when US President Donald Trump first unveiled what he called ‘Liberation Day’ tariffs.   However, broader sentiment across the region turned more positive, with several markets rebounding sharply after Monday’s dramatic sell-offs. Japan’s Nikkei 225 surged over 6% in early trading, rebounding from an 18-month low. South Korea’s Kospi rose marginally, and Australia’s ASX 200 gained 1.9%, driven by strength in mining stocks. Hong Kong’s Hang Seng rose 1.6%, though still far from recovering from Monday’s 13.2% crash—its worst day since the 1997 Asian financial crisis. China’s Shanghai Composite added 0.9%.   In Europe, DAX and FTSE 100 are up more than 1% in opening trade. EU Commission President von der Leyen repeated yesterday that the EU had offered reciprocal zero tariffs on manufactured goods previously and continues to stand by that offer. Others are also trying again to talk to Trump to get some sort of agreement that limits the impact.   Much of the rally appeared to be driven by dip-buying, as well as hopes that the intensifying trade war could still be defused through negotiations.   China Strikes Back: ‘We Will Fight to the End’   Tensions reached a boiling point after Trump threatened to impose an additional 50% tariff on all Chinese imports unless Beijing rolled back its retaliatory measures by April 8. ‘If China does not withdraw its 34% increase above their already long-term trading abuses by tomorrow... the United States will impose additional tariffs on China of 50%,’ Trump declared on social media.   If implemented, the new tariffs would bring total US duties on Chinese goods to a staggering 124%, factoring in the existing 20%, the 34% recently announced, and the proposed 50%.   In response, China’s Ministry of Commerce issued a stern warning, stating: ‘The US threat to escalate tariffs is a mistake on top of a mistake... If the US insists on its own way, China will fight to the end.’ The ministry also called for equal and respectful dialogue, though signs of compromise on either side remain scarce.   Beijing acted quickly to contain a market fallout. State funds intervened to support equities, and the People’s Bank of China set the yuan fixing at its weakest level since September 2023 to boost export competitiveness. Additionally, five-year interest rate swaps in China fell to their lowest levels since 2020, indicating potential for further monetary easing.   Trump Talks Tough on EU Too   Trump’s hardline approach extended beyond China. Speaking at a press conference, he rejected the European Union’s offer to eliminate tariffs on cars and industrial goods, accusing the bloc of ‘being very bad to us.’ He insisted that Europe would need to source its energy from the US, claiming the US could ‘knock off $350 billion in one week.’   The EU, meanwhile, backed away from a proposed 50% retaliatory tariff on American whiskey, opting instead for 25% duties on selected US goods in response to Trump’s steel and aluminium tariffs.     Volatile Wall Street Adds to the Drama   Wall Street experienced wild swings on Monday as investors processed the rapidly evolving trade conflict. The S&P 500 briefly fell 4.7% before rebounding 3.4%, nearly erasing its losses in what could have been its biggest one-day jump in years—if it had held. The Dow Jones Industrial Average sank by as much as 1,700 points early in the day but later climbed nearly 900 points before closing 349 points lower, down 0.9%. The Nasdaq ended up 0.1%.   The brief rally was fueled by a false rumour that Trump was considering a 90-day pause on tariffs—rumours that the White House quickly labelled ‘fake news.’ The market's sharp reaction underscored how desperate investors are for any sign that tensions might ease.   Oil Markets in Focus: Goldman Sachs Revises Forecasts   Crude prices also reflected the uncertainty, with US crude briefly dipping below $60 per barrel for the first time since 2021. As of early Tuesday, Brent crude was trading at $64.72, while WTI hovered around $61.26.   Goldman Sachs, in a note dated April 7, lowered its average price forecasts for Brent and WTI through 2025 and 2026, citing mounting recession risks and the potential for higher-than-expected supply from OPEC+.       Under a base-case scenario where the US avoids a recession and tariffs are reduced significantly before the April 9 implementation date, Goldman sees Brent at $62 per barrel and WTI at $58 by December 2025. These figures fall further to $55 and $51, respectively, by the end of 2026. This outlook also assumes moderate output increases from eight OPEC+ countries, with incremental boosts of 130,000–140,000 barrels per day in June and July.   However, should the US slip into a typical recession and OPEC production aligns with the bank’s baseline assumptions, Brent could retreat to $58 by the end of this year and to $50 by December 2026.   In a more bearish scenario involving a global GDP slowdown and no change to OPEC+ output levels, Brent prices might fall to $54 by year-end and $45 by late 2026. The most extreme projection—based on a simultaneous economic downturn and a full reversal of OPEC+ production cuts—would see Brent plunge to below $40 per barrel by the end of 2026.   Goldman noted that oil prices could outperform forecasts significantly if there was a dramatic shift in tariff policy and a surprise in global demand recovery.   Cautious Optimism, But Warnings Persist   With both Washington and Beijing showing no signs of backing down, markets are likely to remain volatile in the days ahead. Investors now turn their attention to upcoming trade meetings and policy decisions, hoping for clarity in what has become one of the most unpredictable trading environments in recent years.   Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business.   Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar.   Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding of how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE!   Click HERE to READ more Market news.   Andria Pichidi HFMarkets   Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in Leveraged Products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • CVNA Carvana stock watch, rebound to 166.56 support area at https://stockconsultant.com/?CVNA
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.