The Price / Volume Relationship

[gucci 10]

Hi gucci,

 

Bar 10 is OB on increasing volume, bar 7 is IBGS. Do you treat bar 7 as Red bar? TIA

 

Yes I do. It is still part of a down tape (skinny black lines) started by bars 4 and 5, so is the next bar 8. But this bar 7 alone doesn't have much importance in this context.

 

HTH.

[gucci 10]

Where do you guys exit?

 

Let's say you are in an upchannel...you get an FTT, you short... price goes and touches the RTL...now you either get a Breakout or an FBO. In case of Breakout, you should see increasing Red Volume...but within what timeframe? How long do you wait to make up your mind if this is a BO or an FBO?

If the bar that touches the RTL goes through with conviction, it is easy...but I had some instances where price stops exactly there (but you only get increasing black 2 bars later, getting a small loss- had you exited at the RTL, you would have profited a point or two), some where it walks the line, and some where it does either but eventually goes through.

 

Thanks, Vienna

 

If you reverse on ftt of your fractal, you know what comes next. Based on that I can not answer your question.

[vienna 10]

If you reverse on ftt of your fractal, you know what comes next. Based on that I can not answer your question.

 

Thank you. Perhaps somebody else can? Seems like a simple question to me. If you don't want to pollute the style or the thread, please PM me.

 

I understand that Spyder set the style of this thread by letting people find the answers themselves. However, many of the people here asked questions for years and years on ET and got clear answers, which obviously got them to where they are...

[gucci 10]

Thank you. Perhaps somebody else can? Seems like a simple question to me. If you don't want to pollute the style or the thread, please PM me.

 

I understand that Spyder set the style of this thread by letting people find the answers themselves. However, many of the people here asked questions for years and years on ET and got clear answers, which obviously got them to where they are...

 

 

I apologize. I didn't want to imply that I'm the only one who can answer your questions. As I see it, I can not answer your questions in a manner, that would seem acceptable to you.

 

My apologies.

 

By the way, you mixed up a couple of fundamentals in your question. This is why it is difficult to give a simple answer.

[vienna 10]

I apologize. I didn't want to imply that I'm the only one who can answer your questions. As I see it, I can not answer your questions in a manner, that would seem acceptable to you.

 

My apologies.

 

By the way, you mixed up a couple of fundamentals in your question. This is why it is difficult to give a simple answer.

 

No, I apologize. It seems that I have not mastered the art of asking a question that can be answered other than by a koan. Regarding your answer "you mixed up a couple of fundamentals in your question", I apologize for doing so. I would have to ask another question as to which fundamentals you mean by that, by which action I would only prove again that I do not know how to ask a question, for which I apologize.

[Tams 20]

Where do you guys exit?

 

Let's say you are in an upchannel...you get an FTT, you short... price goes and touches the RTL...now you either get a Breakout or an FBO. In case of Breakout, you should see increasing Red Volume...but within what timeframe? How long do you wait to make up your mind if this is a BO or an FBO?

If the bar that touches the RTL goes through with conviction, it is easy...but I had some instances where price stops exactly there (but you only get increasing black 2 bars later, getting a small loss- had you exited at the RTL, you would have profited a point or two), some where it walks the line, and some where it does either but eventually goes through.

 

Thanks, Vienna

 

maybe a diagram (or a series of diagrams) would help you to convey your hypothetical question?

 

 

or better still, get a real life example, cover up the portions you have in question... then discuss it bar-by-bar.

[gucci 10]

No, I apologize. It seems that I have not mastered the art of asking a question that can be answered other than by a koan. Regarding your answer "you mixed up a couple of fundamentals in your question", I apologize for doing so. I would have to ask another question as to which fundamentals you mean by that, by which action I would only prove again that I do not know how to ask a question, for which I apologize.

 

No need to apologize. I can relate to your frustration.

 

Re.fundamentals. BO or FBO have NOTHING... ZERO to do with the timeframe. The method we are discussing here is not timeframe driven, but event (sequences) driven. If you take your action on ftt (the "real" one) you can not expect any FBOs. What are they anyway? What is a BO? This is nothing else but market showing the dominance in the opposite direction. If you see any FBOs, than you just jumped the fractals. The market simply showed the dominance on a smaller (faster) fractal.

 

Look at the highlighted bars. Why there was no way one could anticipate a BO?

 

HTH.

Edited March 11, 2011 by gucci
chart

[vienna 10]

No need to apologize. I can relate to your frustration.

 

Re.fundamentals. BO or FBO have NOTHING... ZERO to do with the timeframe. The method we are discussing here is not timeframe driven, but event (sequences) driven. If you take your action on ftt (the "real" one) you can not expect any FBOs. What are they anyway? What is a BO? This is nothing else but market showing the dominance in the opposite direction. If you see any FBOs, than you just jumped the fractals. The market simply showed the dominance on a smaller (faster) fractal.

 

HTH.

 

Thanks, that's better...I was about to quote you from ET in 2008 where you ask Spyder "Spydertrader, I've reread it several times now and perhaps due to the fact that english isn't my native language I still can not understand it. Can you just help me by answering my question???"....LOL

 

Regarding the FBO's: I understand it is not a question of time, but of action taking place bar by bar.

 

What I mean refers to what Spyder wrote :"After an FTT manifests, we have three possible results: 1. an FBO (Failure [of Price] to Break Out), 2. a BO ([Price] Break Out) or 3. another FTT (Failure of [Price] to Traverse). Which of these occurrences materializes also maters not, as the trader profits first from the price changes occurring between the FTT point and the resulting 'end effect' (FBO, BO, additional FTT). The trader profits second from the resulting actions taken (Exit, Hold or Reverse) once the 'end effects' of the FTT play out."

 

So- what do you mean "If you take your action on ftt (the "real" one) you can not expect any FBOs"--??? How does an FBO (as Spyder defines it) manifest itself?

 

TIA

[gucci 10]

Thanks, that's better...I was about to quote you from ET in 2008 where you ask Spyder "Spydertrader, I've reread it several times now and perhaps due to the fact that english isn't my native language I still can not understand it. Can you just help me by answering my question???"....LOL

 

Regarding the FBO's: I understand it is not a question of time, but of action taking place bar by bar.

 

What I mean refers to what Spyder wrote :"After an FTT manifests, we have three possible results: 1. an FBO (Failure [of Price] to Break Out), 2. a BO ([Price] Break Out) or 3. another FTT (Failure of [Price] to Traverse). Which of these occurrences materializes also maters not, as the trader profits first from the price changes occurring between the FTT point and the resulting 'end effect' (FBO, BO, additional FTT). The trader profits second from the resulting actions taken (Exit, Hold or Reverse) once the 'end effects' of the FTT play out."

 

So- what do you mean "If you take your action on ftt (the "real" one) you can not expect any FBOs"--??? How does an FBO (as Spyder defines it) manifest itself?

 

TIA

 

 

LOL. Not only were you about to quote me but you actually quoted me...

 

Anyway. The quote from Spyder dates back to the times where he jumped the fractals. You can ask him if you wish. Just check his posts after this one.

 

 

Re. FBOs there aren't any.

[vienna 10]

LOL. Not only were you about to quote me but you actually quoted me...

 

Anyway. The quote from Spyder dates back to the times where he jumped the fractals. You can ask him if you wish. Just check his posts after this one.

 

 

Re. FBOs there aren't any.

 

[quote=

 

Re. FBOs there aren't any.

 

 

Arrgh! What does that mean "there aren't any???"..when did this change in the method occur? So the whole coarse level in the futures thread is now "old method"?

 

I don't really care about all this fine fractal stuff, am OK with coarse. Just want to hit the major turning points... I understand that an FBO in one fractal is something else in a smaller fractal...(Btw-aren't YOU jumping fractals then?)... I get an FTT in an upchannel, now an FBO happens in the same fractal level as the channel- when do you know it is an FBO (which I guess refers to the JH wash trades)?

Re your chart: only the third one would have been an FTT (in my way), based on volume. When would you have known it was an FBO and exited?

[vienna 10]

maybe a diagram (or a series of diagrams) would help you to convey your hypothetical question?

 

 

or better still, get a real life example, cover up the portions you have in question... then discuss it bar-by-bar.

 

Yes, thank you.Will try to put one together.

[gucci 10]

Arrgh! What does that mean "there aren't any???"..when did this change in the method occur? So the whole coarse level in the futures thread is now "old method"?

 

I don't really care about all this fine fractal stuff, am OK with coarse. Just want to hit the major turning points... I understand that an FBO in one fractal is something else in a smaller fractal...(Btw-aren't YOU jumping fractals then?)... I get an FTT in an upchannel, now an FBO happens in the same fractal level as the channel- when do you know it is an FBO (which I guess refers to the JH wash trades)?

Re your chart: only the third one would have been an FTT (in my way), based on volume. When would you have known it was an FBO and exited?

 

Just reading your first sentence of the second paragraph makes me think. How can you possibly not care about "this fine fractal stuff" if the slower fractal can not reach completion unless this stuff you do not care about does? Schould I procede with every following sentence in your paragraph?

 

Re. my chart. None of the bars could possibly be an FTT of the traverse. How can you expect a BO then? If there is no BO there can not be any FBOs.

Edited March 11, 2011 by gucci

[vienna 10]

Just reading your first sentence of the second paragraph makes me think. How can you possibly not care about "this fine fractal stuff" if the slower fractal can not reach completion unless this stuff you do not care about does? Schould I procede with every following sentence in your paragraph?

 

Re. my chart. None of the bars could possibly be an FTT of the traverse. How can you expect a BO then? If there is no BO there can not be any FBOs.

 

OK -you need to complete the B2B2R2B on the finer fractal before you look for an FTT?

[vienna 10]

Ok, general question:

 

You guys know the video by Eric Wilson where he trades the RTL breakout, not even the FTT's? Very basic stuff it seemed (he says "I do not tape" in the video), and apparently stays pretty much in one fractal for 2 to 4 major turning points per day, always in until he gets a TL Break with R2R or B2B. (Since then, It seems that since then the method has changed a lot- there even used to be indicators etc, it has also gone micro, breaking it down into the smallest parts).

 

My questions are:

1. It seems that Eric was successful doing this. Am I wrong in this? (If he was successful, does anybody have some contact info for him, PM me)?

2. Are there people on this board that can trade profitably the way Eric did?

3. Gucci says above that at the beginning, Spyder was "jumping fractals". Apparently, however, Spyder could still trade successfully doing so. Is this correct or am I wrong?

4. If so, is there anybody here who trades the way Spyder originally did in the ET thread, and with success?

 

You see where I am going... it might be much more profitable to trade it the way presented here, but perhaps the easier way for me is to approach it from coarse to fine..

 

Thanks!

[pr0crast 10]

Good timing... I've been lurking here for a little while after a multi-year hiatus. Weird to think that people still watch those videos... Those were made a lifetime ago. Personally, being in the leaves (trading tapes, labeling every hitch/dip/etc) psyched me out, so I strived to simplify and use what made intuitive sense to me. That's what I've had the most success with personally, but take that with a grain of salt because my trading record is very short -- my work has a way of keeping me too busy to trade. Lately, I've tried to carve out a little time in the AM for trading and I'm hoping to spend more time here. I've been thrilled to discover that some of the other stuff in these forums that is price/volume related (like VSA) actually backs up / further explains a lot of what folks are doing here, adding context/confidence/understanding to the basics of p/v/channels/ftts. Quite a different environment than EliteTrader.

 

My attitude towards Spyder's futures threads here and at ET is that his training and exercises put you in front of a chart, paying close attention, for enough hours that you will eventually figure out how to trade. Last I checked he doesn't lay out an exact method for entries/exits -- just shows you how to read what you're seeing and keep your head in the game. It might be a mistake to treat this as a method for trading when really it is a method for learning how to trade.

 

Ok, general question:

 

You guys know the video by Eric Wilson where he trades the RTL breakout, not even the FTT's? Very basic stuff it seemed (he says "I do not tape" in the video), and apparently stays pretty much in one fractal for 2 to 4 major turning points per day, always in until he gets a TL Break with R2R or B2B. (Since then, It seems that since then the method has changed a lot- there even used to be indicators etc, it has also gone micro, breaking it down into the smallest parts).

 

My questions are:

1. It seems that Eric was successful doing this. Am I wrong in this? (If he was successful, does anybody have some contact info for him, PM me)?

2. Are there people on this board that can trade profitably the way Eric did?

3. Gucci says above that at the beginning, Spyder was "jumping fractals". Apparently, however, Spyder could still trade successfully doing so. Is this correct or am I wrong?

4. If so, is there anybody here who trades the way Spyder originally did in the ET thread, and with success?

 

You see where I am going... it might be much more profitable to trade it the way presented here, but perhaps the easier way for me is to approach it from coarse to fine..

 

Thanks!

[NYCMB 10]

Enjoy the drill. PAY, PAY, PAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY attention to the tapes and volume ...

 

I'am in a good mood...

Hi gucci,

The attached chart was taken from your annotated FDAX March9, 2011. I got two questions after a closer look of the image---

 

A. What's the significance of the slant line which connecting bar 38 low to bar 42 high? Do you use it as a visual aid to determine something?

 

B. Bar 43 is a difficulty for me to read and anticipate WMCN because---

 

a. Bar 43 has increasing red volume and its close is below the low of bar 42.

b. Bar 43 broke the RTL of bar 40 to 42

c. Close of bar 43 sits on blue trend line and above forest green trend line.

 

Could you help to solve the stated questions A and B ? TIA

[Boux 10]

Thanks Gucci for the chart ---it highlights a few of my delimmas and I'm hoping to sort some of them out once and for all.

 

In my opinion

1) We can't have FTT at any of these bars because we have yet to have return to Dom---as defined by Vol. on a level of that at red "a" or previous black peak???? I'm just guessing for in realtime I would have seen the 2nd bar as a Jakari change and the 3rd as FTT for sure

 

2) On an unrelated topic----how can Pt. 1 be a FTT when it does in fact traverse and even extend on what seems to be an acceleration of Pace??!!!!

 

3) Assuming FTT at Pt.1, how can Pt. 3 be so far into the previous up traverse?? After the BO of the lateral at Pt.2 (which moved so far into the previous) I would have ceased to look for Pt.3 and assumed an error in annotation leading to a continuation of Dom. Up

 

Could anyone give some insight---

 

Vienna--I really appreciate your questions and can relate to your frustration.

[gucci 10]

Hi gucci,

The attached chart was taken from your annotated FDAX March9, 2011. I got two questions after a closer look of the image---

 

A. What's the significance of the slant line which connecting bar 38 low to bar 42 high? Do you use it as a visual aid to determine something?

 

B. Bar 43 is a difficulty for me to read and anticipate WMCN because---

 

a. Bar 43 has increasing red volume and its close is below the low of bar 42.

b. Bar 43 broke the RTL of bar 40 to 42

c. Close of bar 43 sits on blue trend line and above forest green trend line.

 

Could you help to solve the stated questions A and B ? TIA

 

A. This line doesn't carry any significance. I might have put it in real time when the market was creating a pennant on the 39th bar and simply forgot to remove it. Sorry for the confusion.

 

B. The bar in question is a non dom movement of the faster fractal (dark green lines). No need to over-analyse it since it is confined by those lines. Look at the dominant tape (bars 36,37,38) of the faster fractal traverse (dark green). It goes all way through to the LTL so no FTT of the faster fractal traverse yet (dark green). What must come next?

[frenchfry 10]

FBO or not... which "signs" would tell us that we probably have an FBO?

 

What do you see? Are there any hints of?

[frenchfry 10]

What hints do you see now?

[frenchfry 10]

Well... could be an FBO!?

[frenchfry 10]

This looks better!? Any clues?

[frenchfry 10]

Now it is clear. But would you have seen it in real time? What were the clues?

[frenchfry 10]

Just in case somebody thinks I know something or wants to be a "wise ass" and show that I don't know anything...

 

I'm clueless!!!

:o

[gucci 10]

Now it is clear. But would you have seen it in real time? What were the clues?

 

 

Thanks for giving me a hand frenchfry.