Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

Recommended Posts

I note 3 types of laterals: (a) Point 2 to Point 3 movements, (b) post Point 3 movements into the trend, and © Point 1 to Point 2 movements [e.g. 15:15 on 7/23]. I suppose, both (b) and © can be classified as non-dominant. [As in one thing is dominant entering the lateral and then another thing is dominant exiting the lateral]. Other than their location in the gaussian sequence, I can't think of any other way of differentiating them.

 

 

Romanus, how Point 2 to Point 3 movement can be dominant? (in a binary universe of course)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Romanus, how Point 2 to Point 3 movement can be dominant? (in a binary universe of course)
Adding a word 'dominant' or 'non-dominant' in front of the word 'lateral' doesn't change the nature of the lateral formation/movement. I believe it only serves as a way of differentiating various types of laterals. Sort of "vocabulary word" type of deal. However, don't qoute me on this, as there may be a hidden meaning there in the particular choice of words (dominant/non-dominant).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Adding a word 'dominant' or 'non-dominant' in front of the word 'lateral' doesn't change the nature of the lateral formation/movement. I believe it only serves as a way of differentiating various types of laterals. Sort of "vocabulary word" type of deal. However, don't qoute me on this, as there may be a hidden meaning there in the particular choice of words (dominant/non-dominant).

 

Those "vocabulary words" influence decisions and actions resulting from them. It is kind of important. How would you describe the "nature" of a lateral which comprises the movement of price from point 2 to point 3? What decision (and appropriate action) would result from the aforementioned different description?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Romanus is spot on. Don't get hung up on a word. Call them Type I and Type II laterals, remembering that for the purposes of this discussion, ALL laterals must progress through the following structures: Pennant -> Lateral Formation -> "Lateral".

 

Spyder has said in this thread, we must consider what goes on inside the lateral and to me that means one must answer the questions:

  • Where am I in the sequence of the fractal on which I am trading?
  • Based on my position in the sequence, WMCN? As has been said many, many times before, WMCN refers to what must come next in the 1,2,3 sequence. That's all it means (and that's enough).
  • How did the lateral start?
  • What went on as the lateral progressed? This will be more or less important depending on your level of expertise as a trader.

 

If you know the answers to these questions, you will know the outcome long before it comes to pass and you just wait for the outcome to show itself. There is ZERO prediction involved. We've had a mess o' laterals this AM which illustrate the logic outlined above. This is NOT the only way to say this stuff. Put it in your own words.

Edited by ljyoung
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Romanus is spot on. Don't get hung up on a word. Call them Type I and Type II laterals, remembering that for the purposes of this discussion, ALL laterals must progress through the following structures: Pennant -> Lateral Formation -> "Lateral".

 

Spyder has said in this thread, we must consider what goes on inside the lateral and to me that means one must answer the questions:

  • Where am I in the sequence of the fractal on which I am trading?
  • Based on my position in the sequence, WMCN? As has been said many, many times before, WMCN refers to what must come next in the 1,2,3 sequence. That's all it means (and that's enough).
  • How did the lateral start?
  • What went on as the lateral progressed? This will be more or less important depending on your level of expertise as a trader.

 

If you know the answers to these questions, you will know the outcome long before it comes to pass and you just wait for the outcome to show itself. There is ZERO prediction involved. We've had a mess o' laterals this AM which illustrate the logic outlined above. This is NOT the only way to say this stuff. Put it in your own words.

 

 

ljyoung, are you interested in a scientific discussion of the topic at hand? If you are, then let us cut to the chase and discuss those things. The hole shit we are talking about here is binary (I hope), so the answers to any questions asked schould be unambiguous. I thought you have got a scientific background.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ljyoung, are you interested in a scientific discussion of the topic at hand? If you are, then let us cut to the chase and discuss those things. The whole shit we are talking about here is binary (I hope), so the answers to any questions asked schould be unambiguous. I thought you have got a scientific background.

 

FYI, that is precisely what I am doing. EVERYTHING about which I spoke is Boolean. That, as you know, is what NO PREDICTION means.

 

Science, as it develops, may or may not have to do with Booleans, but the end point should be a Boolean, if at all possible. Sometimes, for a time, it isn't possible but that is another discussion for another thread.

 

So back to topic which is laterals. Sure looks to me like we had one of those unambiguous change in dominance thingies. So there's got to be a P2 and a P3 leading up to the P1 and we are talking about a traverse in this instance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So back to topic which is laterals. Sure looks to me like we had one of those unambiguous change in dominance thingies. So there's got to be a P2 and a P3 leading up to the P1 and we are talking about a traverse in this instance.

 

I do not understand why you are talking about fractals here (you used the word traverse), I was talking about the movement of price from point 2 to point 3. We could nail it down and move on. Another (not so appealing to me at all) alternative would be to play with definitions and their meanings and get stuck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I do not understand why you are talking about fractals here (you used the word traverse), I was talking about the movement of price from point 2 to point 3. We could nail it down and move on. Another (not so appealing to me at all) alternative would be to play with definitions and their meanings and get stuck.

 

You may be playing with definitions. I'm not BUT you'd better know whatTF a P1, a P2 and a P3 are. What I'm talking about is knowing whereTF you are in terms of the fractal on which you are trading. Talking about the 'movement of price from P2 to P3' is meaningless unless you know where you are in terms of the sequence of the fractal on which you are trading.

 

This thread is about the 5 min ES traverse trading fractal unless I've missed something. Read romanus' stuff in this thread and see if that doesn't help.

 

Thank you Spyder. Without your help I would not be able to see more clearly (not perfectly as yet) what the real PV is.

Edited by ljyoung
spelling x3 and a variety of grammatical errors as well and an added thank you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You may be playing with definitions. I'm not BUT you'd better know whatTF a P1, a P2 and a P3 are. What I'm talking about is knowing whereTF you are in terms of the fractal on which you are trading. Talking about the 'movement of price from P2 to P3' is meaningless unless you know where you are in terms of the sequence of the fractal on which you are trading.

 

This thread is about the 5 min ES traverse trading fractal unless I've missed something. Read romanus' stuff in this thread and see if that doesn't help.

 

Thank you Spyder. Without your help I would not be able to see more clearly (not perfectly as yet) what the real PV is.

 

 

Spyder, you thanked ljyoung. I guess this is really helpful for somebody. What about the question? The lateral movement from point 2 to point 3 can it be a non-dom one?

 

PS: ljyoung, I was not playing with definitions. I hope you know what I'm talking about. Are you a scientist?

Edited by gucci
Thank you for your TF that was really helpful

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I guess this is really helpful for somebody.

 

Your posts continue to confirm observations made long ago: You simply refuse to engage your brain, prior to, engaging your mouth (or in this case, keyboard). Several people have attempted to assist your understanding, but instead of listening to, and learning from, their advice, you have, instead, chosen a different path - one which clearly fails to motivate others to continue their assistance.

 

Jb, Roman and Lj have each provided you with helpful advice. I encourage you to review their recent posting history.

 

If you don't much care for the advice of these three, I suggest you follow your own advice instead ...

 

I won't bother you anymore with my posts.

 

- Spydertrader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My efforts on STITCH / OB / LAT - Differentiation Drill for today.

07302009-Diff-Drill.thumb.jpg.e406eb58e845873fb5ae203878a48750.jpg

Edited by ehorn
new image - missed an OB :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My efforts on STITCH / OB / LAT - Differentiation Drill for today.

 

Thank you so much for sharing your efforts! What is your definition of Stitch-DV? Stitch-IV (I noted that both the long and short stitches are thus labeled)? DOM and Non-DOM Laterals? Please, and how do you build up the gausians? building from the smallest unit to the larger as they develop? I am trying to follow as per definition in post #6, but not so sure whether I am hearing the market clearly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thank you so much for sharing your efforts! What is your definition of Stitch-DV? Stitch-IV (I noted that both the long and short stitches are thus labeled)? DOM and Non-DOM Laterals? Please, and how doyou build up the gausians? building from the smallest unit to the larger as they develop?

 

yvw,

 

DV = Decreasing Volume - The second bar in the formation

IV = Increasing Volume - The second bar in the formation

 

Think of a flaw (i.e. pennant type) - What type of volume typically forms the second bar of the pennant? A stitch is also a flaw. IMO, The volume of the second bar gives clues as to what type of stitch we are observing (think increasing volume decreasing volatility - or the inverse).

 

With regards to laterals, I share a similar view as JBarnby describes in an earlier post where he describes the differentiation of laterals.

 

Gaussians are tracked and built from lowest fractal to highest (tape ---> traverse ---> channel). Sometimes there are more visible fractals on a 5M chart (sub-fractals) but we strive to focus on the 3 listed above.

 

I have attached my debriefed chart for today. On It, I use blue to indicate tapes, green (today) and orange to indicate traverse (5M level). Looks like tomorrow I will be using the orange... :)

 

Best wishes

07302009.thumb.jpg.42fa59e28a6ceaee37062c1cd796235f.jpg

Edited by ehorn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm watching Aronofsky's "π". Thank God it's tonight and not 6 months ago or God knows where I'd be (heh, heh). It got me thinking about what we have been discussing and as is often the case, the old man pops up with his set of 'terminators' (my word for want of a better term) and then he vanishes into n-dimensional vector space or wherever it is that he hangs out.

 

Three of the five are the pennants. If you have a third inside bar then you are 'stuck' in the traverse but if you immediately 'break out' of the pennant, then the possible consequences can be quite different if the circumstances are appropriate. Since stitches are just 'reverse pennants' the same logic can apply to them.

 

The trendlines, if you will, associated with the pennants are going to be of particular consequence depending on whether or not you are in a trend which 'matches' the trendlines of the pennant. I think this is what Spyder was talking about in his earlier post. Please note that this is merely my opinion and is not to be construed in any other way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
trying to get to the right ballpark.......

 

I recommend begining the process of learning how to locate the 'correct ballpark' by annotating Price Bars two by two (using the examples shown earlier in the thread). Once one understands the correct procedure required for annotation, one can then begin to see how the process of refining one's technique brings things right into focus.

 

Currently, you have attempted to create a medium size and larger picture, but without the added benefit of the building blocks which make up the details.

 

Begin with these smaller pieces and build from there. In such a fashion, you'll soon see how letters form words, and words become sentences. It is within these sentences that the market tells its story.

 

- Spydertrader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Your posts continue to confirm observations made long ago: You simply refuse to engage your brain, prior to, engaging your mouth (or in this case, keyboard). Several people have attempted to assist your understanding, but instead of listening to, and learning from, their advice, you have, instead, chosen a different path - one which clearly fails to motivate others to continue their assistance.

 

Jb, Roman and Lj have each provided you with helpful advice. I encourage you to review their recent posting history.

 

If you don't much care for the advice of these three, I suggest you follow your own advice instead ...

 

 

 

- Spydertrader

 

Not much of a choice,don't you think? Either follow the advice of those, who don't understand what they are talking about (or couldn't use their understanding profitably) or shut up. This is really priceless. I hope you enjoy the show,because somebody has to get something from it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yvw,

 

DV = Decreasing Volume - The second bar in the formation

IV = Increasing Volume - The second bar in the formation

 

Think of a flaw (i.e. pennant type) - What type of volume typically forms the second bar of the pennant? A stitch is also a flaw. IMO, The volume of the second bar gives clues as to what type of stitch we are observing (think increasing volume decreasing volatility - or the inverse).

 

 

Thank you so much! This is very helpful. Second vol bar of the pennant is typically smaller than the first vol bar. I will pay attention to the second vol bar of stitch today.

 

 

Gaussians are tracked and built from lowest fractal to highest (tape ---> traverse ---> channel). Sometimes there are more visible fractals on a 5M chart (sub-fractals) but we strive to focus on the 3 listed above.

 

 

Very helpful! Thank you!

 

I have attached my debriefed chart for today. On It, I use blue to indicate tapes, green (today) and orange to indicate traverse (5M level). Looks like tomorrow I will be using the orange... :)

 

Best wishes

 

Pardon, what do you call the red (tape?) please?

Edited by rs5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I recommend begining the process of learning how to locate the 'correct ballpark' by annotating Price Bars two by two (using the examples shown earlier in the thread). Once one understands the correct procedure required for annotation, one can then begin to see how the process of refining one's technique brings things right into focus.

 

- Spydertrader

 

Thank you for responding! I am following price annotations as per post #5 (as noted on my chart). Is there something I need to alter to understand the correct procedure please?

 

Thank you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Is there something I need to alter to understand the correct procedure please?

 

1. In the Volume Pane, you'll need three fractals, not just two.

2. In the Price Pane, your trend lines do not show a consistant application of the fractal nature of the market.

 

- Spydertrader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1. In the Volume Pane, you'll need three fractals, not just two.

 

ok Thank you

2. In the Price Pane, your trend lines do not show a consistant application of the fractal nature of the market.

- Spydertrader

 

I would appreciate it if you will point out any errors or inconsistancies when you see them so I will be alerted to correct. Thank you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I guess ... a useful discussion would be to compare contexts: like 1335 and 1550 laterals, or 1120 and 1210 outside bars, or 1140 and 1525 spikes, etc.. Coming with clear examples, clearly explaining your thought process and conclusions, then asking for comments, would get everybody much more from this thread. :)

 

Was this in regard to the 7-28-09 ES chart? I don't have the OB's, stitches on mine. But it looks like the laterals and at least one spike referenced are from that day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • NFLX Netflix stock watch, local support and resistance areas at 838.12 and 880.5 at https://stockconsultant.com/?NFLX
    • NFLX Netflix stock watch, local support and resistance areas at 838.12 and 880.5 at https://stockconsultant.com/?NFLX
    • Hello citizens of the U.S. The hundred year trade war has leaked over into a trading war. Your equity holdings are under attack by huge sovereign funds shorting relentlessly... running basically the opposite of  PPT operations.  As an American you are blessed to be totally responsible for your own assets - the govt won’t and can’t take care of you, your lame ass whuss ‘retail’ fund managers go catatonic  and can't / won’t help you, etc etc.... If you’re going to hold your positions, it’s on you to hedge your holdings.   Don’t blame Trump, don’t blame the system, don’t even blame the ‘enemies’ - ie don’t blame period.  Just occupy the freedom and responsibility you have and act.  The only mistake ‘Trump’ made so far was not to warn you more explicitly and remind you of your options to hedge weeks ago.   FWIW when Trump got elected... I also failed to explicitly remind you... just sayin’
    • Date: 7th April 2025.   Asian Markets Plunge as US-China Trade War Escalates; Wall Street Futures Signal Further Turmoil.   Global financial markets extended last week’s massive sell-off as tensions between the US and its major trading partners deepened, rattling investors and prompting sharp declines across equities, commodities, and currencies. The fallout from President Trump’s sweeping new tariff measures continued to spread, raising fears of a full-blown trade war and economic recession.   Asian stock markets plunged on Monday, extending a global market rout fueled by rising tensions between the US and China. The latest wave of aggressive tariffs and retaliatory measures has unnerved investors worldwide, triggering sharp sell-offs across the Asia-Pacific region.   Asian equities led the global rout on Monday, with dramatic losses seen across the region. Japan’s Nikkei 225 index tumbled more than 8% shortly after the open, while the broader Topix fell over 6.5%, recovering only slightly from steeper losses. In mainland China, the Shanghai Composite sank 6.7%, and the blue-chip CSI300 dropped 7.5% as markets reopened following a public holiday. Hong Kong’s Hang Seng Index opened more than 9% lower, reflecting deep concerns about escalating trade tensions.           South Korea’s Kospi dropped 4.8%, triggering a circuit breaker designed to curb panic selling. Taiwan’s Taiex index collapsed by nearly 10%, with major tech exporters like TSMC and Foxconn hitting circuit breaker limits after each fell close to 10%. Meanwhile, Australia’s ASX 200 shed as much as 6.3%, and New Zealand’s NZX 50 lost over 3.5%.   Despite the escalation, Beijing has adopted a measured tone. Chinese officials urged investors not to panic and assured markets that the country has the tools to mitigate economic shocks. At the same time, they left the door open for renewed trade talks, though no specific timeline has been set.   US Stock Futures Plunge Ahead of Monday Open   US stock futures pointed to another brutal day on Wall Street. Futures tied to the S&P 500 dropped over 3%, Nasdaq futures sank 4%, and Dow Jones futures lost 2.5%—equivalent to nearly 1,000 points. The Nasdaq Composite officially entered a bear market on Friday, down more than 20% from its recent highs, while the S&P 500 is nearing bear territory. The Dow closed last week in correction. Oil prices followed suit, with WTI crude dropping over 4% to $59.49 per barrel—its lowest since April 2021.   Wall Street closed last week in disarray, erasing more than $5 trillion in value amid fears of an all-out trade war. The Nasdaq Composite officially entered a bear market on Friday, sinking more than 20% from its recent peak. The S&P 500 is approaching bear territory, and the Dow Jones Industrial Average has slipped firmly into correction territory.   German Banks Hit Hard Amid Escalating Trade Tensions   German banking stocks were among the worst hit in Europe. Shares of Commerzbank and Deutsche Bank plunged between 9.5% and 10.3% during early Frankfurt trading, compounding Friday’s steep losses. Fears over a global trade war and looming recession are severely impacting the financial sector, particularly export-driven economies like Germany.   Eurozone Growth at Risk   Eurozone officials are bracing for economic fallout, with Greek central bank governor Yannis Stournaras warning that Trump’s tariff policy could reduce eurozone GDP by up to 1%. The EU is preparing retaliatory tariffs on $28 billion worth of American goods—ranging from steel and aluminium to consumer products like dental floss and luxury jewellery.   Starting Wednesday, the US is expected to impose 25% tariffs on key EU exports, with Brussels ready to respond with its own 20% levies on nearly all remaining American imports.   UK Faces £22 Billion Economic Blow   In the UK, fresh research from KPMG revealed that the British economy could shrink by £21.6 billion by 2027 due to US-imposed tariffs. The analysis points to a 0.8% dip in economic output over the next two years, undermining Chancellor Rachel Reeves’ growth agenda. The report also warned of additional fiscal pressure that may lead to future tax increases and public spending cuts.   Wall Street Braces for Recession   Goldman Sachs revised its US recession probability to 45% within the next year, citing tighter financial conditions and rising policy uncertainty. This marks a sharp jump from the 35% risk estimated just last month—and more than double January’s 20% projection. J.P. Morgan issued a bleaker outlook, now forecasting a 60% chance of recession both in the US and globally.   Global Leaders Respond as Trade Tensions Deepen   The dramatic market sell-off was triggered by China’s sweeping retaliation to a new round of US tariffs, which included a 34% levy on all American imports. Beijing’s state-run People’s Daily released a defiant statement, asserting that China has the tools and resilience to withstand economic pressure from Washington. ‘We’ve built up experience after years of trade conflict and are prepared with a full arsenal of countermeasures,’ it stated.   Around the world, policymakers are responding to the growing threat of a trade-led economic slowdown. Japanese Prime Minister Shigeru Ishiba announced plans to appeal directly to Washington and push for tariff relief, following the US administration’s decision to impose a blanket 24% tariff on Japanese imports. He aims to visit the US soon to present Japan’s case as a fair trade partner.   In Taiwan, President Lai Ching-te said his administration would work closely with Washington to remove trade barriers and increase purchases of American goods in an effort to reduce the bilateral trade deficit. The island's defence ministry has also submitted a new list of US military procurements to highlight its strategic partnership.   Economists and strategists are warning of deeper economic consequences. Ronald Temple, chief market strategist at Lazard, said the scale and speed of these tariffs could result in far more severe damage than previously anticipated. ‘This isn’t just a bilateral conflict anymore — more countries are likely to respond in the coming weeks,’ he noted.   Analysts at Barclays cautioned that smaller Asian economies, such as Singapore and South Korea, may face challenges in negotiating with Washington and are already adjusting their economic growth forecasts downward in response to the unfolding trade crisis.           Oil Prices Sink on Demand Concerns   Crude oil continued its sharp slide on Monday, driven by recession fears and weakened global demand. Brent fell 3.9% to $63.04 a barrel, while WTI plunged over 4% to $59.49—both benchmarks marking weekly losses exceeding 10%. Analysts say inflationary pressures and slowing economic activity may drag demand down, even though energy imports were excluded from the latest round of tariffs.   Vandana Hari of Vanda Insights noted, ‘The market is struggling to find a bottom. Until there’s a clear signal from Trump that calms recession fears, crude prices will remain under pressure.’   OPEC+ Adds Further Pressure with Output Hike   Bearish sentiment intensified after OPEC+ announced it would boost production by 411,000 barrels per day in May, far surpassing the expected 135,000 bpd. The alliance called on overproducing nations to submit compensation plans by April 15. Analysts fear this surprise move could undo years of supply discipline and weigh further on already fragile oil markets.   Global political risks also flared over the weekend. Iran rejected US proposals for direct nuclear negotiations and warned of potential military action. Meanwhile, Russia claimed fresh territorial gains in Ukraine’s Sumy region and ramped up attacks on surrounding areas—further darkening the outlook for markets.   Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business.   Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report.   Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar.   Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding of how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE!   Click HERE to READ more Market news.   Andria Pichidi HFMarkets   Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in Leveraged Products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • AMZN Amazon stock watch, good buying (+313%) toi hold onto the 173.32 support area at https://stockconsultant.com/?AMZN
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.