The Price / Volume Relationship

[stepan7 10]

  plantrader said:

Stepan, most of those seem to amount to a 2-bar formation with an internal (SYM, FBP, etc) with a BO to the dom side. To summarize, then that's a "hold" because it's not a signal for change yet, even if it could be a a FTT bar technically.

 

Is that a fair summary or not really? What I'm wondering is, what if those BO bars (the last bar in each diagram) is on decreasing volume? That is some sort of SOC in an of itself, in that case. So would that change the perspective, or would it still be a "hold" due to how it occurred? Could you expand or share your views on this angle?

 

We have in this case 3-bar examples.

 

Examples provided are tapes.

 

BO by definition is a break of the channel.

 

Stepan

[outsource 10]

  stepan7 said:

To make it clear.

 

HTH

 

 

The first formation on that blackboard is not a Hitch,the second is not a Dip.The only that correct seems are the Stalls.

 

The first three bar combo on that board is FlatBottomPennant and following by the StitchDown.The second,could hardly descern,but the first combo seems an InsideBar.

 

You guys need to get back back to basics sgain,after 20 years of studying the method. :rofl:

[outsource 10]

  1877trading said:

hello everybody

 

I have put in alot of time in studying this method. It looks very nice but when it come to live trading i did not have any success.

 

I am wondering if anybody here is using this method as their daily income?

 

If yes do you think it is possible to achieve this just by reading the thread?

 

What is your advice

 

Thanks

 

Just trade FTT to FTT - trading fractal.

[stepan7 10]

  outsource said:

The first formation on that blackboard is not a Hitch,the second is not a Dip.The only that correct seems are the Stalls.

 

The first three bar combo on that board is FlatBottomPennant and following by the StitchDown.The second,could hardly descern,but the first combo seems an InsideBar.

 

You guys need to get back back to basics sgain,after 20 years of studying the method. :rofl:

 

Sure, dude from Russia knows better than Spydertrader, who posted it back in 2007.

Edited June 3, 2015 by stepan7

[outsource 10]

  SK0 said:

Wow, I have underestimated your intellectual capability and resourcefulness. Shame on me.

 

Did Jack Hershey give you his five books? I am jealous.

 

Jack has transferred his 5 suit to me in a compressed squished like manner,via thin air or ether,if you like.Squish...squish....lol

 

I`m still in contact with Him,btw...He said:,''please tell the guys that still struggle,that the dollar symbol($) wasn`t invented for no reason.''He said;,''it just resembles the price movement from FTT to FTT,that`s where the invention of the whole method has come from."He said:,for those who can see through their a44 only,let them draw $ on the chart and curve fit the price into it."

 

Grandpa was just in a great mood to give you all that shortcut via myself.

 

Enjoy!

[tradingwizzard 10]

hey guys,

 

take it easy, no room for offensive language here....I am editing your recent posts, but then will block you if you continue this way.

 

let's try to keep it civilized.

 

TW

[xioxxio 10]

  stepan7 said:

Sure, dude from Russia knows better than Spydertrader, who posted it back in 2007.

 

 

 

Mak is a masters of this method. He spent a lot of time with Jack and Todd in Tuscon. I would definitely put him in the same boat as Spyder.

[gucci 10]

Take it for what it is worth... The nomenclature was chosen deliberately. IMHO.

Edited June 3, 2015 by gucci

[plantrader 10]

This is similar to a recent topic, so I thought I'd continue it. Anybody interested in sharing their views & techniques for recognizing an FTT that remains an FTT vs a false one & we get trend continuation? I'm thinking in terms of a medium speed, some of you call it a BBT, some of you call it a Tape & some of you call it a Traverse.

 

In case it seems like I'm asking an unanswerable question, I do understand that identifying accurate FTTs in real-time is the most difficult part of the method (and very easy on historical static charts). Just wondering about techniques and perspectives anyone might use.

 

Generally, FTT plus a SOC (signal of change) is what we'd use for a trading decision. While also noting that we need to be 'on cycle' (finished a volume cycle). Still, in real-time that combo of factors will often occur many times in a trend before it finally ends. RTL cross comes into play also, but will obviously usually increase the risk if we wait that long to enter (which is fine of course). Even RTL cross can be a false signal, as continuation may occur & we have to fan the RTL subsequently.

 

Here are some starter answers:

1) Wait for a slower RTL cross; bbt, tape or traverse RTL, whatever your version of the method calls it.

 

1.a) Even if we're on-cycle with volume and have a FTT & SOC, and wait for a RTL cross we'll still often have to end up fanning the RTL due to continuation after a false reversal. Any additional tips?

 

2) FTT plus SOC plus RTL cross, enter trade then simply manage the trade and exit/stopout as needed. That's all one can do, and no way around it. If so, that's understandable of course, but am trying to cover all bases rather than making assumptions. Hey, you never know what someone else might "know"!

 

3) FTT plus SOC plus RTL cross, then also wait for IV (incr vol) in the direction of reversal before entering? Often this entry might have to be using PRV (prorated vol), I assume, in order to avoid waiting for a bar close & funking up the risk:reward ratio.

 

4) Other volume-based ways to tell if a potential FTT is likely to have efficacy or whether it'll end up moot and should be ignored in real-time? Troughs, peaks, etc?

[gucci 10]

  plantrader said:

This is similar to a recent topic, so I thought I'd continue it. Anybody interested in sharing their views & techniques for recognizing an FTT that remains an FTT vs a false one & we get trend continuation? I'm thinking in terms of a medium speed, some of you call it a BBT, some of you call it a Tape & some of you call it a Traverse.

 

In case it seems like I'm asking an unanswerable question, I do understand that identifying accurate FTTs in real-time is the most difficult part of the method (and very easy on historical static charts). Just wondering about techniques and perspectives anyone might use.

 

Generally, FTT plus a SOC (signal of change) is what we'd use for a trading decision. While also noting that we need to be 'on cycle' (finished a volume cycle). Still, in real-time that combo of factors will often occur many times in a trend before it finally ends. RTL cross comes into play also, but will obviously usually increase the risk if we wait that long to enter (which is fine of course). Even RTL cross can be a false signal, as continuation may occur & we have to fan the RTL subsequently.

 

Here are some starter answers:

1) Wait for a slower RTL cross; bbt, tape or traverse RTL, whatever your version of the method calls it.

 

1.a) Even if we're on-cycle with volume and have a FTT & SOC, and wait for a RTL cross we'll still often have to end up fanning the RTL due to continuation after a false reversal. Any additional tips?

 

2) FTT plus SOC plus RTL cross, enter trade then simply manage the trade and exit/stopout as needed. That's all one can do, and no way around it. If so, that's understandable of course, but am trying to cover all bases rather than making assumptions. Hey, you never know what someone else might "know"!

 

3) FTT plus SOC plus RTL cross, then also wait for IV (incr vol) in the direction of reversal before entering? Often this entry might have to be using PRV (prorated vol), I assume, in order to avoid waiting for a bar close & funking up the risk:reward ratio.

 

4) Other volume-based ways to tell if a potential FTT is likely to have efficacy or whether it'll end up moot and should be ignored in real-time? Troughs, peaks, etc?

 

Gimme some time to respond. I will start with fanning.

[river 10]

  plantrader said:

Anybody interested in sharing their views & techniques for recognizing an FTT that remains an FTT vs a false one & we get trend continuation?

 

 

Disclaimer: I view the P/V relationship through the prism of a different iteration of the methodology than Spydertrader presented here at TL.

 

Short answer:

 

If your MADA is reasonably proficient, it doesn’t matter. As soon as you think you have a FTT, take the trade and continue to use your MADA routine to ensure you stay on the right side of the market.

 

 

Longer personal view answer:

 

Annotating three levels of ‘containers’ allows you to trade the middle level while the faster level aids timing decisions and the slower level gives context. (If the previous sentence wasn’t already self-evident to you, spend some time sketching the idealized P/V patterns on three levels simultaneously.)

 

Know the clues when the trend on your trading fractal is likely to fail to traverse the left side of your ‘container’. FTTs occur after point 3, typically are preceded by a flaw or a formation, and occur at volume peaks. When you arrive at the point you think you have a FTT on your trading fractal, monitor your faster fractal for a b2b or r2r volume sequence and execute your trade in the indicated direction.

 

After you execute your trade, be sure to continue to utilize your MADA routine and the bookmark and rtl failsafes Jack Hershey discussed elsewhere. As long as you know the price and volume sequences (what must come next) you won’t have to concern yourself with a search for conformation that a FTT just occurred because you are prepared to take action to stay on the right side of the market.

 

-river

[plantrader 10]

  river said:

Disclaimer: I view the P/V relationship through the prism of a different iteration of the methodology than Spydertrader presented here at TL.

 

Short answer:

 

If your MADA is reasonably proficient, it doesn’t matter. As soon as you think you have a FTT, take the trade and continue to use your MADA routine to ensure you stay on the right side of the market.

 

 

Longer personal view answer:

 

Annotating three levels of ‘containers’ allows you to trade the middle level while the faster level aids timing decisions and the slower level gives context. (If the previous sentence wasn’t already self-evident to you, spend some time sketching the idealized P/V patterns on three levels simultaneously.)

 

Know the clues when the trend on your trading fractal is likely to fail to traverse the left side of your ‘container’. FTTs occur after point 3, typically are preceded by a flaw or a formation, and occur at volume peaks. When you arrive at the point you think you have a FTT on your trading fractal, monitor your faster fractal for a b2b or r2r volume sequence and execute your trade in the indicated direction.

 

After you execute your trade, be sure to continue to utilize your MADA routine and the bookmark and rtl failsafes Jack Hershey discussed elsewhere. As long as you know the price and volume sequences (what must come next) you won’t have to concern yourself with a search for conformation that a FTT just occurred because you are prepared to take action to stay on the right side of the market.

 

-river

 

Thanks river. Sounds more or less similar to #2 in my list, basically act upon what you think is a FTT and manage the trade accordingly from there. Assuming fractals, volume cycle, etc, are all suitable for the entry.

[stepan7 10]

  plantrader said:

This is similar to a recent topic, so I thought I'd continue it. Anybody interested in sharing their views & techniques for recognizing an FTT that remains an FTT vs a false one & we get trend continuation? I'm thinking in terms of a medium speed, some of you call it a BBT, some of you call it a Tape & some of you call it a Traverse.

 

In case it seems like I'm asking an unanswerable question, I do understand that identifying accurate FTTs in real-time is the most difficult part of the method (and very easy on historical static charts). Just wondering about techniques and perspectives anyone might use.

 

Generally, FTT plus a SOC (signal of change) is what we'd use for a trading decision. While also noting that we need to be 'on cycle' (finished a volume cycle). Still, in real-time that combo of factors will often occur many times in a trend before it finally ends. RTL cross comes into play also, but will obviously usually increase the risk if we wait that long to enter (which is fine of course). Even RTL cross can be a false signal, as continuation may occur & we have to fan the RTL subsequently.

 

Here are some starter answers:

1) Wait for a slower RTL cross; bbt, tape or traverse RTL, whatever your version of the method calls it.

 

1.a) Even if we're on-cycle with volume and have a FTT & SOC, and wait for a RTL cross we'll still often have to end up fanning the RTL due to continuation after a false reversal. Any additional tips?

 

2) FTT plus SOC plus RTL cross, enter trade then simply manage the trade and exit/stopout as needed. That's all one can do, and no way around it. If so, that's understandable of course, but am trying to cover all bases rather than making assumptions. Hey, you never know what someone else might "know"!

 

3) FTT plus SOC plus RTL cross, then also wait for IV (incr vol) in the direction of reversal before entering? Often this entry might have to be using PRV (prorated vol), I assume, in order to avoid waiting for a bar close & funking up the risk:reward ratio.

 

4) Other volume-based ways to tell if a potential FTT is likely to have efficacy or whether it'll end up moot and should be ignored in real-time? Troughs, peaks, etc?

 

 

Interesting topic, plantrader. Thank you.

 

I do little trick with four charts:

 

1. I wold like to see FTT or P3 on all four.

2. Plus FTT/P3 has be be confirmed on YM or NQ 2 min. charts.

 

 

UPDATE P2 on chart is mistake, please read as P3

Edited June 4, 2015 by stepan7

[Mandelbrot 10]

stepan7 and river thanks so much for sharing. Also thanks to plantrader for bringing up this topic. Very interesting indeed

 

All these different iterations are based on your style of trading and personality. Is there any special meaning behind the 987 and 6765 volume charts. Not to be disrespectful, them seem random to me.

 

Thanks

[stepan7 10]

  Mandelbrot said:

stepan7 and river thanks so much for sharing. Also thanks to plantrader for bringing up this topic. Very interesting indeed

 

All these different iterations are based on your style of trading and personality. Is there any special meaning behind the 987 and 6765 volume charts. Not to be disrespectful, them seem random to me.

 

Thanks

 

They are Fibonacci Sequence numbers. In the Nature nothing is random.

[stepan7 10]

  stepan7 said:

Interesting topic, plantrader. Thank you.

 

I do little trick with four charts:

 

1. I wold like to see FTT or P3 on all four.

2. Plus FTT/P3 has be be confirmed on YM or NQ 2 min. charts.

 

 

UPDATE P2 on chart is mistake, please read as P3

 

 

3. All three major indices have to line up at the point of change. One can substitute ES/YM/NQ with SPY/DIA/QQQ.

 

Edited June 4, 2015 by stepan7

[xioxxio 10]

  stepan7 said:

3. All three major indices have to line up at the point of change. One can substitute ES/YM/NQ with SPY/DIA/QQQ.

 

 

Stepan, you are a machine. How many charts are you annotating in realtime?

 

Thanks for the posts.

[stepan7 10]

  xioxxio said:

Stepan, you are a machine. How many charts are you annotating in realtime?

 

Thanks for the posts.

 

I do not annotate charts - software does.

[plantrader 10]

  stepan7 said:

I do not annotate charts - software does.

 

Stepan, thanks for the replies & info. Related question, for you & everyone... do you find that a slower thing (what I call a Tape; medium speed thing) HAS to FTT or can the slower thing FTT on a VE bar as long as the "faster" thing truly does FTT? And similarly, what if the slower thing FTTs but the faster does not?

 

Either/or can FTT, as long as one of them does? Or both have to? Or just the slower thing has to FTT and the faster does not necessarily?

 

My assumption is that the slower thing HAS to FTT no matter what, even if the faster thing doesn't. Anyone have observation-based opinions on that re: what you've found has the most credibility overall? Maybe in the end, it doesn't matter, who knows.

[stepan7 10]

  plantrader said:

Stepan, thanks for the replies & info. Related question, for you & everyone... do you find that a slower thing (what I call a Tape; medium speed thing) HAS to FTT or can the slower thing FTT on a VE bar as long as the "faster" thing truly does FTT? And similarly, what if the slower thing FTTs but the faster does not?

 

Either/or can FTT, as long as one of them does? Or both have to? Or just the slower thing has to FTT and the faster does not necessarily?

 

My assumption is that the slower thing HAS to FTT no matter what, even if the faster thing doesn't. Anyone have observation-based opinions on that re: what you've found has the most credibility overall? Maybe in the end, it doesn't matter, who knows.

 

Could you post real chart annotated by you with your questions outlined on it?

[plantrader 10]

  stepan7 said:

Could you post real chart annotated by you with your questions outlined on it?

 

Sure, here's one. I'm only showing price, in order to isolate the question I'm asking. I didn't want to comb back through charts, so I'm using today and have modified one TL to illustrate my question (i know it's not a correct TL now).

 

Assumptions: We have 3 BBTs, each with a 123ftt, and the overall Tape (green TLs) has a full volume cycle and incr vol after Pt3. Also assume we get a valid down tape after this.

 

That sets the stage for what I'm really asking, which is can we FTT the tape when the slower thing (tape TL) are a VE, but the faster thing (BBT TL) does FTT?

 

Or is it vice versa, we have to FTT the Tape (green TL) but it's Ok if the faster thing ends on a VE? Or do both have to FTT no matter what?

Edited June 4, 2015 by plantrader

[outsource 10]

If you had matched Open with Close there woulda been no VE`s

[plantrader 10]

  outsource said:

If you had matched Open with Close there woulda been no VE`s

 

What do you mean by that? Matched open with close, in relation to what? Maybe a visual would help.

[outsource 10]

Check the image.Image check...check check. check.....(short message doesn`t come through)

[plantrader 10]

  outsource said:

Check the image.Image check...check check. check.....(short message doesn`t come through)

 

Very interesting. I take it you used custom code in ninja to force the open to always match the close of each bar? Why did you do it? Is that something the original method creators suggested, or is it something you discovered? Can you expand on the rationale or benefit or how it came to be?

 

Aside from that, let's say you ended up on a given tape with the same TL/FTT situation I described, then what? Do both speeds have to FTT, or is it an either/or type of thing?