The Price / Volume Relationship

[Scooty 10]

Yeah , you are right !!! Everybody go in his own way , for me is to know what is working and keep it as simple as possible !!! :missy:

 

I have something to refresh your fond memory. No complication.

 

from Jack Hershey Jun 2 2000, 3:00 am show options

Newsgroups: misc.invest.technical

From: "Jack Hershey"

Date: 2000/06/02

Subject: 30 minute warmup bar trading.

 

Fundamental Money Making Concepts.

 

I use simple mechanical systems to get people to understand the basic concept of making money steadily and with little or no risk.

 

When you trade daily for 6 1/2 hours a key thing to consider is not doing too much to make some money.

 

By choosing a futures index of any sort on any exchange in the world, you have put yourself, for 6 1/2 hours a day in a place that is truly dull and unexciting. Being there is fairly safe and not too demanding so you can relax and repeat a few tasks over and over to make some money.

 

I work first with 30 minute bars to frankly eliminate any sense of urgency. I use the prior days last bar to get the ball rolling, or I suggest you wait until the second begins to eliminate the end effects of the market.

 

Here is a progression of four mechanical methods to illustrate making money primarily and secondarily to illustrate that losses are neatly reduced more and more as a little sophistication enters the picture. I also introduce how in a trend you can switch to the most favorable side of the channel to exit. Because this is very simple and mechanical there is no need to clutter it with a stop system as yet mostly because it an index tied to the performance of and aggregation of stocks. We can tuck stops in easily though as a commitment to our ordinary discipline.

 

The four items in the progression are:

 

1. break out of prior bar.

2. slope pairs of bars.

3. overlapped pairs slopes

4. retracement.

 

Here is the progression:

 

1. set up a 30 bar display for a futures index.

2. enter on the breakout beyond (above or below) the prior days last bar hi/lo.

3. hold until the current bar breaks out of the other end (from your long or short entry) of the prior bar.

4. hold on inside bars.

5. hold on successive bar break outs in the same trend.

6. on breakout of 3., reverse so you can take on new trend trade.

7. repeat 3. through 6. for remaining bars of the day.

8. settle at end of day.

[Mr_black 10]

I have something to refresh your fond memory. No complication.

 

This is bull....if you trade this set of rules is 99% probability to lose your play money...!!!!:haha:

[cnms2 10]

I have something to refresh your fond memory. No complication.

You know how they say: "it's only a drill, if it were an actual" trading system it would also have the volume and the fractal context.

[Scooty 10]

This is bull....if you trade this set of rules is 99% probability to lose your play money...!!!!:haha:

If I were the one who designed the rule set of this method, call it a bull as you like. See who designed it.

 

 

You know how they say: "it's only a drill, if it were an actual" trading system it would also have the volume and the fractal context.

It is not a drill. It was put up as an actual complete trading method for a swing trader leaving plenty of money on the table. FYI his second complete method using slope pairs of bars which leaves not as plenty of money on the table does not use volume nor fractal context.

 

 

I am not here to argue what best or not. Frankly, I have a hard time to make meaningful progress in learning price volume relationship. I thought why not put up his older works as food for thoughts.

[Mr_black 10]

If I were the one who designed the rule set of this method, call it a bull as you like. See who designed it.

 

 

 

It is not a drill. It was put up as an actual complete trading method for a swing trader leaving plenty of money on the table. FYI his second complete method using slope pairs of bars which leaves not as plenty of money on the table does not use volume nor fractal context.

 

 

I am not here to argue what best or not. Frankly, I have a hard time to make meaningful progress in learning price volume relationship. I thought why not put up his older works as food for thoughts.

Let me trow you a bone , this is the plase where you should enter, or close to this price level to make some $£¥.

[stepan7 10]

I'm not sure what's your point. Jack's charts show that:

....................

 

As a general note, I'm not defending Jack or Spydertrader, or trying to put one above the other, each one has his merits: we wouldn't have these discussions without either of them. I just post my opinions on a matter or another. I'm always open to learn something, be it something new, or correcting or improving my understanding.

 

Hi cnms2, frenchfry.

 

Do you have Jack's new library for TN?

 

Thnak you,

 

Stepan

Edited March 25, 2013 by stepan7

[Ezzy 10]

If I were the one who designed the rule set of this method, call it a bull as you like. See who designed it.

This will explain where Jack was going with it:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/misc.invest.technical/MepKxK6hbpk

 

His typical MO, starting at a base line and adding layers. He's done the same with indicators, just how he teaches. Call it a learning tool, training wheels or drill.

[frenchfry 10]

Hi cnms2, frenchfry.

 

Do you have Jack's new library for TN?

 

Thnak you,

 

Stepan

 

Unfortunately, no. On ET you can see that he told me that I could/should get it but when I took him by his words he chickened out.

 

If you look at his chart then you can see that you already have most of what he re-invented. It is basically all the cases and bar numbers. He changed the lateral annotation and added his "U's" as an indication that the bar gives permission to measure volume. I also see he marks the BO's. The rest he seems to add manually. Everything you see on his chart should be pretty easy for you to replicate. If then in addition you can get the intra-bar degapping to work, then you're the man. No... in fact... if you add an automatic volume annotation with PPs, bands LVBOs, HVBOs, T1s, etc. then you should have an automated SCT system. Just remember me when you don't need the system anymore.

[stepan7 10]

Unfortunately, no. On ET you can see that he told me that I could/should get it but when I took him by his words he chickened out.

 

If you look at his chart then you can see that you already have most of what he re-invented. It is basically all the cases and bar numbers. He changed the lateral annotation and added his "U's" as an indication that the bar gives permission to measure volume. I also see he marks the BO's. The rest he seems to add manually. Everything you see on his chart should be pretty easy for you to replicate. If then in addition you can get the intra-bar degapping to work, then you're the man. No... in fact... if you add an automatic volume annotation with PPs, bands LVBOs, HVBOs, T1s, etc. then you should have an automated SCT system. Just remember me when you don't need the system anymore.

 

Thank you.

 

It took me significant time to reverse engineer Spyder's Lateral Formation and Lateral Movement and I don't want to repeat this route again.

 

If somebody will come up with defined rules than I have no problem to implement them for benefit of all. Otherwise I will stick to "old" school.

 

What do you mean by "intra-bar degapping"? Intra-day?

 

Stepan )

Edited March 25, 2013 by stepan7

[frenchfry 10]

What do you mean by "intra-bar degapping"? Intra-day?

Stepan )

 

Look at the chart you posted. There is often a gap between the close and the open of the next bar. If you take the distance between the close and the open and then shift the previous bars up or down by that distance then you will get a new result. For example without degap you would see an FTP but when you shift the bars then suddenly you have a XB or a Sym.

 

Does it matter? Theoretically, yes... could be. The funny thing is until recently everybody (most) didn't degap intra-bar and SCT still worked... or maybe that's why it didn't work?

 

Maybe those like DB_sezwhat who degap intrabar since some time can share their experience?

[wilddog 10]

Look at the chart you posted. There is often a gap between the close and the open of the next bar. If you take the distance between the close and the open and then shift the previous bars up or down by that distance then you will get a new result. For example without degap you would see an FTP but when you shift the bars then suddenly you have a XB or a Sym.

 

Does it matter? Theoretically, yes... could be. The funny thing is until recently everybody (most) didn't degap intra-bar and SCT still worked... or maybe that's why it didn't work?

 

Maybe those like DB_sezwhat who degap intrabar since some time can share their experience?

 

Todd spoke about that. He felt de-gap from the previous close to the open was sufficient. I have attache DB's de-gapped chart.

[vienna 10]

....... If then in addition you can get the intra-bar degapping to work, then you're the man. .....

 

 

Guys- intra-bar degapping? Are you sure?

 

Just to clarify: you ARE aware that that would mean the trendlines would jump at every bar, right? Or rather- price would jump relative to your trendlines.

Which means you could not draw trendlines, therefore you would not know when you have crossed a TL/ closed outside. And you could not draw an FTT nor a VE either....

 

So- you are saying that it would be advantageous to trade this method without trendlines and without FTT's..??

 

[cnms2 10]

Guys- intra-bar degapping? Are you sure?

 

Just to clarify: you ARE aware that that would mean the trendlines would jump at every bar, right? Or rather- price would jump relative to your trendlines.

Which means you could not draw trendlines, therefore you would not know when you have crossed a TL/ closed outside. And you could not draw an FTT nor a VE either....

 

So- you are saying that it would be advantageous to trade this method without trendlines and without FTT's..??

 

First time I read this idea from Spydertrader, and I guess Jack took it from him, or as in other cases it might've been an older element of Jack's method uncovered by Spydertrader at a certain moment.

 

Degapping (day to day, and maybe the intra-day too) makes sense especially for the continuity of the order of events, for volume sequences.

 

There is the possibility that it may be useful for volume gating by price internals, and it might not be useful for trendlines. It might be also useful to determine if a VE closed in the zone, or if a lateral ended.

 

If you try to use a concept you don't fully understand, it's likely that you'll use it incorrectly and you'll draw the wrong conclusions.

 

You may have noticed that bar coloring (pennants) is slightly changed too.

[vienna 10]

First time I read this idea from Spydertrader, and I guess Jack took it from him, or as in other cases it might've been an older element of Jack's method uncovered by Spydertrader at a certain moment.

 

Degapping (day to day, and maybe the intra-day too) makes sense especially for the continuity of the order of events, for volume sequences.

 

There is the possibility that it may be useful for volume gating by price internals, and it might not be useful for trendlines. It might be also useful to determine if a VE closed in the zone, or if a lateral ended.

 

If you try to use a concept you don't fully understand, it's likely that you'll use it incorrectly and you'll draw the wrong conclusions.

 

You may have noticed that bar coloring (pennants) is slightly changed too.

 

"First time I read this idea from Spydertrader, and I guess Jack took it from him, or as in other cases it might've been an older element of Jack's method uncovered by Spydertrader at a certain moment."

Actually, Spyder apparently said on several occasions that de-gapping individual bars makes absolutely no sense. I can get you more info as to when he said that, if needed...

 

"It might be also useful to determine if a VE closed in the zone, or if a lateral ended."

Independent of the fact that if you can't draw a trendline, you obviously can't determine what a VE is: why on earth would you need de-gapped bars to determine either of these??

 

"If you try to use a concept you don't fully understand, it's likely that you'll use it incorrectly and you'll draw the wrong conclusions."

 

 

Very true, see above...

:-)

[PTVtrader 10]

Guys- intra-bar degapping? Are you sure?

 

Just to clarify: you ARE aware that that would mean the trendlines would jump at every bar, right? Or rather- price would jump relative to your trendlines.

Which means you could not draw trendlines, therefore you would not know when you have crossed a TL/ closed outside. And you could not draw an FTT nor a VE either....

 

So- you are saying that it would be advantageous to trade this method without trendlines and without FTT's..??

 

 

The trend lines do not jump at all.. Inter-bar degapping IS superior.

 

Also take a look at who found this post useful.

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/6320-price-volume-relationship-21.html#post77636

 

To each their own though...

[vienna 10]

The trend lines do not jump at all.. Inter-bar degapping IS superior.

 

Also take a look at who found this post useful.

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/6320-price-volume-relationship-21.html#post77636

 

To each their own though...

 

 

"The trend lines do not jump at all.. Inter-bar degapping IS superior."-

 

Thank you, now I am really convinced...:-)..."sigh".

 

OF course they jump! How could they not? You need to move either the previous bars or the future bars to remove the gap. The open of each new bar has to line up with the close of the last bar.

NT has an indicator that de-gaps bars, I had it- you try to draw a trendline, good luck. If I remember correctly, it moved the previous bars. If it shifted the current bar to remove a gap, prices would be completely off by the end of day.

 

Unless there is a software that moves the TL's with the price, if so- please let me know which one can do this: i lobbied with the owner of TN for months to achieve it, without success (and several others did too), just to remove the hassle of moving lines in the morning. He was afraid of liability issues for the software if it displayed non-existant price bars and people placed trades based on it.

 

As to Spyder liking that post: I personally know (because we discussed it in the last few days) from somebody who was as close to Spyder as anybody that S. thought that whole intrabar de-gapping thing was complete hogwash. Maybe he changed his mind after that post, I don't know.

 

But enough of this: if you guys can make intrabar degapping and drawing TL's work, please post it here.If you are already doing it- just post a video.Anyways....I'll stop now.

[heretodaygone... 10]

please delete........

[cnms2 10]

They are going to be at Las Vegas (the VP for sure, and possibly their CEO), and even though (at least) two individuals have strongly encouraged Genesis to add a 'Gap Elimination' Option to their software, additional interest for said functionality expressed through direct contact should prove beneficial. After all, The 'opening' gap isn't the only Gap which does not exist.

 

More on this in Las Vegas.

 

- Spydertrader

PTVtrader's chart and post of 10-11-2009 were in reply to the above comment made by Spydertrader.

 

A clarification: I don't use intraday degapping.

[PTVtrader 10]

"The trend lines do not jump at all.. Inter-bar degapping IS superior."-

 

 

 

OF course they jump! How could they not? - just post a video.Anyways....I'll stop now.

 

interbar degap | Screencast-O-Matic - Free online screen recorder for instant screen capture video sharing.

[vienna 10]

interbar degap | Screencast-O-Matic - Free online screen recorder for instant screen capture video sharing.

 

Aha...I guess it does exist...:-) So it drags the lines with the bars....what software is that?

[xioxxio 10]

PTVtrader,

 

"Inter-bar degapping IS superior", Bold statement (needs to be backed up)

 

Please could you demonstrate with an example where the inter-bar degapping gave you an edge over bars with gaps?

 

Thanks

[Heisenberg 10]

Let me trow you a bone , this is the plase where you should enter, or close to this price level to make some $£¥.

 

Meaning if you cross the open of the first bar of a trend?

 

Heisenberg

[Mr_black 10]

Meaning if you cross the open of the first bar of a trend?

 

Heisenberg

I am not trading JH method....but if you ask me trend lines, and shapes are only in your imagination, and most of TA is crap.....you can't predict what price will do next based on TA principles, Ma's and indicators. The only certain is that most of traders are losers and if you find places where are more of them this is your sweet (G)spot...

[Heisenberg 10]

I am not trading JH method....but if you ask me trend lines, and shapes are only in your imagination, and most of TA is crap.....you can't predict what price will do next based on TA principles, Ma's and indicators. The only certain is that most of traders are losers and if you find places where are more of them this is your sweet (G)spot...

 

So don't keep me in suspense, what are you trading then? And what are you doing among the trader losers?

[Mr_black 10]

So don't keep me in suspense, what are you trading then? And what are you doing among the trader losers?

Just looking....:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer: