The Price / Volume Relationship

[wilddog 10]

I want to work through these channels---was wondering if anyone had some un-annotated charts for the 13th, 14th and 15th----my data doesn't go back that far.

 

I not sure how you get the data going back that far.

Edited January 25, 2013 by wilddog

[Scooty 10]

Sorry to be a bit ot here but what is the significance of the thin break lines in some of the formation boxes in the attached TN chart ?

 

Thanks, Steve

 

The first bars of the two boxes with the pointed arrows are OB. Unlike other Internal cases, an OB is painted with a bordered yellow box.

 

Do you notice that some Stitches on the chart are not painted? Hmm...

[wilddog 10]

The first bars of the two boxes with the pointed arrows are OB. Unlike other Internal cases, an OB is painted with a bordered yellow box.

 

Do you notice that some Stitches on the chart are not painted? Hmm...

 

I am not sure what the hmm is for. Once again it is software coding. TN uses a library of Spyders tools.

 

There is no mystery around this. If the second bar of the stitch has lower volume the software highlights this.

 

Remember the second bar of a stitch has higher volatility (range) , so you expect the volume to be higher.

 

HTH

[Corey 10]

Sorry to be a bit ot here but what is the significance of the thin break lines in some of the formation boxes in the attached TN chart ?

 

Thanks, Steve

look closer, one of them is outside bar.

[cnms2 10]

Cleaned up the "example of slow fractal" (see attached).Corrected some of the price and matching volume bars to have correct bar coloration.Added the slightly faster nested gaussians.I believe this is same fractal weighting used by jbarnby's in the 10-3-2012 purple thick down container(traverse).One interesting side note is the placement location of the "trough" of R2R of traverse.There is some comments by spydertrader where the location of the R2R traverse trough may be located starting on http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/6320-price-volume-relationship-271.html post #2167.hth

If you look at the price pane interlocking fractals, look for FTTs. There are many ways to look at the price+pane picture that ultimately show the same thing. If you held through the pt2 to pt3 retrace, you should hold through the whole "fractal 4" snippet.

[Monkman 10]

If you look at the price pane interlocking fractals, look for FTTs. There are many ways to look at the price+pane picture that ultimately show the same thing. If you held through the pt2 to pt3 retrace, you should hold through the whole "fractal 4" snippet.

 

Thank you for the example with the trading application comment. I just wanted to bring up that one might want to enter a trade near the first FTT in green. At this point what type of confirmation should we look for before we enter the trade short?

 

From the information that is provided I am having difficulty seeing change. How do we know, its R2R if we have not seen a breakout from the prior sequences container? Specifically a break out in price from the prior container, and the end of the 2B from the prior volume sequence.

[river 10]

river you have been on this thread long enough to know that is a rhetorical question.

 

lol--wilddog, it wasn't meant to be rhetorical but it appears that it was.

 

-river

[cnms2 10]

Thank you for the example with the trading application comment. I just wanted to bring up that one might want to enter a trade near the first FTT in green. At this point what type of confirmation should we look for before we enter the trade short?. ...

Finer events will give more fake reversals with better entry points, while coarser events will give less fakes with less optimal entries. You'll have to decide what works for you. A volume increase gives momentum, and means continuation, so generally yields better reversals. Remember that this method works more with an "anticipation" mind set, than with a "confirmation" one.

... From the information that is provided I am having difficulty seeing change. How do we know, its R2R if we have not seen a breakout from the prior sequences container? Specifically a break out in price from the prior container, and the end of the 2B from the prior volume sequence.

"The "2" happens in the area where the RTL is crossed, and except on the fastest fractals, in extreme pace situations, or news spikes, it should be preceded by observable decreasing volume and followed by increasing volume, on the fractal you're monitoring.

 

On a lighter note, your question reminds of a dialogue from the movie "Michael"

Are you with the angel?

 

Do you see an angel?

 

I don't think I do.

 

Then how could I be with him?

 

Well, we don't know exactly how it works with angels.

 

How it works? If he's in the room then you're with him. If he's somewhere else ...then you're not.

 

And that's why we can't see him now? He's not here.

 

Are you impaired in some way ...that I haven't noticed, Miss?

 

Ms. Winters ...has probably never heard of an angel living in a motel.

 

You think I'm full of shit.

 

No, no. Nothing like that. I don't judge these things. I don't decide what's real or not.

 

I've seen too many things myself. We heard of a werewolf in S. Jersey. We went there. To locate the werewolf.

 

In that particular case ...that person was convinced that the werewolf was in the room with us. They could see it, although Mr. Quinlan and myself ... We couldn't, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there.

 

Michael? Are you coming down, dear?

 

Yeah. Be right down.

[Scooty 10]

Remember that this method works more with an "anticipation" mind set, than with a "confirmation" one.

 

I got the impression that once one could differentiate any kind of formations inside any chart assuming he knows well about price volume relationship, he will be able to trade with a "confirmation" mind. Of course, I am not saying that I could do it.

[Monkman 10]

Finer events will give more fake reversals with better entry points, while coarser events will give less fakes with less optimal entries. You'll have to decide what works for you. A volume increase gives momentum, and means continuation, so generally yields better reversals. Remember that this method works more with an "anticipation" mind set, than with a "confirmation" one."The "2" happens in the area where the RTL is crossed, and except on the fastest fractals, in extreme pace situations, or news spikes, it should be preceded by observable decreasing volume and followed by increasing volume, on the fractal you're monitoring.

 

On a lighter note, your question reminds of a dialogue from the movie "Michael"

 

Overtime it will change trust me, how long, no guarantees lol.

 

You followed up with a home run on this one. I always wondered how others viewed the trade off with entries from other time frames. Back when we numbered cycles, from Dry up to Peak, 0 to 1, with the 0-7-6-5-4-3-2-1-0 numbering system, I tended to get annoyed on what I viewed as a late entry, between / closer to the 7 point. But really I was trading based on confirmation which yielded less profit in turn for a "lower risk trade."

 

I am pretty sure I understand what you are talking about in the quote below. Would you be so kind to confirm if what I have made comments on is correct.

 

"The "2" happens in the area where the RTL is crossed, and except on the fastest fractals, in extreme pace situations, or news spikes,"

 

BTW I am putting a sticky in my office with your above comment. There are several very helpful ones that people have posted in this thread, and this is one of them.

[cnms2 10]

Overtime it will change trust me, how long, no guarantees lol.

 

You followed up with a home run on this one. I always wondered how others viewed the trade off with entries from other time frames. Back when we numbered cycles, from Dry up to Peak, 0 to 1, with the 0-7-6-5-4-3-2-1-0 numbering system, I tended to get annoyed on what I viewed as a late entry, between / closer to the 7 point. But really I was trading based on confirmation which yielded less profit in turn for a "lower risk trade."

 

I am pretty sure I understand what you are talking about in the quote below. Would you be so kind to confirm if what I have made comments on is correct.

 

"The "2" happens in the area where the RTL is crossed, and except on the fastest fractals, in extreme pace situations, or news spikes,"

 

BTW I am putting a sticky in my office with your above comment. There are several very helpful ones that people have posted in this thread, and this is one of them.

I'm tempted to say that you're correct with your examples, in the way I understand what you wrote. Annotations usually are more clear than words, and marking in letters the significant points (pt1, pt2, pt3, ve, m1, m2, ftt) is very helpful.

 

I also quote from today's Jack's posts, related to our current discussion:

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3734007#post3734007

 

...

 

There are many levels of trading. When a person gets beyond beginner to intermediate, he is able to differentiate between indicators and market signals found on indicators or their "derivatives" (not in the sense of calculus but in the sense of "are derived on the basis of").

 

Beginner levels of trading deal with risk management and money mnagement. Stops are also part of this imperfect knowledge and skill.

 

Advanced beginners probably stick to things like "confirmation"

 

At some p[oint in skill development traders swith from entry/exit skill level trading to hold/reversal trading. this is just a statement regarding risk; as risk is minimized by added knowledge and skills, then reversing is preferred over sidelining. At this point the trader is well aware that exit and entry are an identity except for sentiment orientation.

 

At an expert level all these are deemed not required. the reason is that there are aspects of Systems Analysis(SA) that step in to take the place of "trendfollowing" a lagging orientation) to be able to monitor and analysis in the Present or more expert to anticipate (a place slightly ahead of the Present and located in the future) while monitoring and analyzing the "NEXT" event in the trend.

 

A part of potfolio management addresses quality assurance. therefore, many instuments and tools of analysis have the adjective "future" associated with them.

 

I use the word "leading" with respect to events of trends..

 

...

 

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3734100#post3734100

 

Trading is a decision making process. Trading decisions are made in the Present.

 

potential traders do what they do. One common thing is using stops. As knowledge and skill increases; the potential trader becomes a trader and around that time he no longer wastes time deciding on a stop value because he knows they no longer work because of his position size.

 

another common thing is setting targets. A potential trader stops setting targets as he becomes a trader and recognizes that trading is a bar-by-by routine. As the tradr grows, he move to view markets in an anticiaptory mode. Anticipation is "event" oriented and there is always the "NEXT" event taking place as the future moves into the Present. For me "I know that I know" the event is there aand I watch it come into the Present to optimize my carving the turn.

 

...

[Monkman 10]

My take on this AM. Gotta love the solid continuation from previous day.

[jbarnby 10]

My take on this AM. Gotta love the solid continuation from previous day.

 

At that point in time we didn't have permission to build a med nondom gaussian.

[jbarnby 10]

This Traverse contained LOTS of good learning material. I hope some will find this example helpful.

[jbarnby 10]

All a tape. NOT a traverse!

[Scooty 10]

This Traverse contained LOTS of good learning material. I hope some will find this example helpful.

 

Thanks for showing the correct Traverse in your chart.

 

On your B2B gaussian from 14:45 (2/15) to 11:25 (2/19), could you give some clues why:

 

(1) The trough of B2B is not on any increasing black volume bar such as 15:35 (2/15) but on 11:25 (2/17)? Is it because prior Red Traverse RTL was not broken out yet?

 

(2) The last bar of B2B is not on 09:55 (2/19) or 10:45 (2/19) but on 11:25 (2/19).

 

TIA.

[jbarnby 10]

Thanks for showing the correct Traverse in your chart.

 

On your B2B gaussian from 14:45 (2/15) to 11:25 (2/19), could you give some clues why:

 

(1) The trough of B2B is not on any increasing black volume bar such as 15:35 (2/15) but on 11:25 (2/17)? Is it because prior Red Traverse RTL was not broken out yet?

 

(2) The last bar of B2B is not on 09:55 (2/19) or 10:45 (2/19) but on 11:25 (2/19).

 

TIA.

 

As spyder wrote previously on this thread, to get to pt 2 of a tape (or any fractal) you need a faster fractal container. If you think pt 2 of a tape (b2b) can be on the 0955 bar (02/19) then you're not handling VE's properly.

[cnms2 10]

jack hersheyActive Member

New

PointOne said:

↑

Jack

please would you clarify your:

 

"A trend moves forward by measures (11) in the independent variable (you steer and focus from one to the next). these have "correspondences" to events (10) in the dependent variable which you hold through."

 

...and how these measures and events

map

to markets' R2RBR / B2BRB PV sequences (on 3 fractals)?

Soon I will begin a trading journal

. You show

three independent variable elements in R2R B R. One each of these the sub has 3 also. # x # = 9. In the last sub, two more elements are possible (3 x 3) + 2. That is 11 for volume

. The 10 cases of the dependent variable probably seem unimportant since the independent variable dictates the profit taking on price the dependent variable.

 

BUT..........

 

There is an issue of the sequence of requirements to measure and just when measuring can be done. I feel the OP will explain how the neurobiology of the mind works at some point. As it stands now anyone can do anything they want and we know the consequences.

 

And as you see my constantly lurking detractors show how envy combines with indignation which relly fucks up the mind function permanently.

 

The dependent variable DOES HAVE a JOB. It gates and kills measurement in the independent variable. this is "entwining" of trend forwarding. There are five strands involved as it turns out.

 

The important price cases are the only ones that make money. they "cast" shadows on subsequent price activity. SOOOO.... as a consequence (consequences are very important where a potential trader is focussed on "learning failure") (this may be explained as well by the OP), no measurement of trend forwrding is possible during the "shadowing" periods. Price squishes these out of the picture.

 

An expert senses by three operators: space, shapes, and movement. So I have mathematically articulated 21 elements that cover the entwining of five streams of "stuff"

 

I ask that people work to build their minds so that they have inference to use with the sensing operators. I wrote this out years ago in "Dr. Hu". There neurobiological "picture" of snsing and inference to obtain preception was introduced to the public formally at that time. Diagramatically you can see the iterative refinment positive feedback loops for becoming fully differentiated.

 

Experience affords this fully differentiated spectrum.

[Monkman 10]

Are the two additional elements brought about after a VE?

[wilddog 10]

Are the two additional elements brought about after a VE?

 

Look up m1,m2

 

There used to be a thread on ET called "The Documents by Jack Hershey" and "Iterative Refinement"

 

It looks like all of Spyders threads on ET are gone.

 

An m1,m2 resolves a VE, after a VE you expect a non-dom and then back to dom. You can post on ET and Jack will respond with an explanation. He lives for this stuff

 

 

HTH

Edited February 25, 2013 by wilddog

[wilddog 10]

I found it.

 

Forums - The Documents by Jack Hershey

[Monkman 10]

Are the high lighted areas M1 and M2? On my chart I have the last 2R leg, which has a full cycle and two extra volume cycles.

[wilddog 10]

Are the high lighted areas M1 and M2? On my chart I have the last 2R leg, which has a full cycle and two extra volume cycles.

 

m1m2 is over one to two bars not a range of bars. For example if looking at a single bar case; part of the bar would be black and the other part would be red.

[wilddog 10]

Another possibility.

[wilddog 10]

WMCN: Look for shorting opportunities; sequence not complete

 

HTH