The Price / Volume Relationship

[wilddog 10]

My recommendation is Spydertrader only.

 

The good thing about Spyder is he is a man of few words and speaks in riddles. On the other hand Jack is a man of many words and waffles.

 

No disrespect to either.

[cnms2 10]

On Friday, Jack posted his open for today, and he was right.

Today he posted his open for tomorrow. Does your MADA agree with it?

 

[cnms2 10]

This Morning's non-dominant traverse.

 

Admire Spydertrader's clarity in annotation, the first two steps of MADA!

[Heisenberg 10]

The good thing about Spyder is he is a man of few words and speaks in riddles. On the other hand Jack is a man of many words and waffles.

 

No disrespect to either.

 

Speaking in riddles is a good thing? I don't think so.

 

Heisenberg

[Tams 20]

Speaking in riddles is a good thing? I don't think so.

 

Heisenberg

 

it is a riddle only if you try to look for a message that isn't there.

[Heisenberg 10]

it is a riddle only if you try to look for a message that isn't there.

 

I got an expression for you: "The blind leading the blind".

Think a bit about that. And that is not a riddle, compared to what you try to write here.

 

No offense. Just trying to be realistic.

 

Heisenberg

[SK0 10]

Admire Spydertrader's clarity in annotation, the first two steps of MADA!

 

I want to throw out some "riddles" for Heisenberg based on the posted chart.

 

1. There is something critically important missing, without which one is more or less guessing the price move from Pt 1 to Pt 2 of a forming Red Traverse container.

 

2. Pt 3 of the Red Traverse container can not be known that we know until several bars later.

[Heisenberg 10]

I want to throw out some "riddles" for Heisenberg based on the posted chart.

 

1. There is something critically important missing, without which one is more or less guessing the price move from Pt 1 to Pt 2 of a forming Red Traverse container.

 

2. Pt 3 of the Red Traverse container can not be known that we know until several bars later.

 

1. We need the first traverse in order to know Pt 1 of the next traverse? And its Pt 2 must be outside of the previous (first traverse) container.

 

2. We need to wait for increasing red before this Pt3 is "confirmed"?

 

Heisenberg

[SK0 10]

1. We need the first traverse in order to know Pt 1 of the next traverse? And its Pt 2 must be outside of the previous (first traverse) container.

 

2. We need to wait for increasing red before this Pt3 is "confirmed"?

 

Heisenberg

 

Your answer to second "riddle" is correct. Good. Use this answer to solve first "riddle" accurately.

 

What EVENT, specifically, do you have when this occurs on first "riddle"?

Edited January 15, 2013 by SK0

[Heisenberg 10]

Your answer to second "riddle" is correct. Good. Use this answer to solve first "riddle" accurately.

 

What EVENT, specifically, do you have when this occurs on first "riddle"?

 

We want to see R2R first?

 

Heisenberg

[jbarnby 10]

For those having difficulty understanding the information gucci has attempted to convey, might I suggest continuing the discussion from a slightly different orientation (in an effort to 'fast-forward' the application of said information onto 'present day'). Doing so, allows everyone to 'set aside' that which provides them difficulty - with the goal being to return to reading gucci's words after having the ability to understand 'part' of what gucci hopes to get you to see. Once one solves part of a problem, by definition, one then has a different problem before them.

 

The market begins a new cycle (for all fractals) at 14:15 (Eastern Time) yesterday (10-13-2010). Start the annotation process from that point in time.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

 

"There is only one problem in life: How do you go about the process of solving problems."

 

One of my favorite exercises in this entire thread. In fact, I love this channel drill so much that I use it as part of the training for each of my students. There's a TON of information within this drill, and it may take you a long time to piece it all together, but it has a bit of everything that one uses in their daily decision making process...sub fractals, containers, ve's, pace accelerations, unobservable events, etc...this list goes on! If you have a problem maintaining fractal integrity, this drill will be a challenge.

 

I don't have time to lead a discussion on this exercise, but I thought it worthwhile for some of you to revisit this drill, and perhaps work through it together.

 

Spyder tells us that a new channel begins at 1415 on 10/13/10. The channel ends at 1030 on 10/15/10.

 

Good luck!

[river 10]

On Friday, Jack posted his open for today, and he was right.

Today he posted his open for tomorrow. Does your MADA agree with it?

 

 

Great question. My response to Jack in that thread indicated I thought we were forming a pt 3 at the end of the day (see chart snippet) and I anticipated a "long" on the open from pt 3 to ftt. This morning's open invalided my anticipation.

 

I'm still trying to annotate this time period to my satisfaction. How would you annotate the end of yesterday and today's gap adjusted open snippet?

 

-river

[SK0 10]

We want to see R2R first?

 

Heisenberg

We know R2R is a component of volume sequences that we don't think too much CONSCIOUSLY about what corresponds on the Traverse channel at the price pane. R2R is not an event on the Traverse channel. (Hint: Read my replies again. What event do you see concurrently on Traverse channel when you see Increasing Red? Pt 1, BO, Pt 2, Pt 3, VE, New Pt 2, New Pt 3, FTT, new FTT. Which one?)

 

I assume that you know the answer by now. Now, what else do you need to see on the price pane to know that you have the event? (Hint: See what I added on the amended chart.) See what I mean something is missing on the chart?

[wilddog 10]

One of my favorite exercises in this entire thread. In fact, I love this channel drill so much that I use it as part of the training for each of my students. There's a TON of information within this drill, and it may take you a long time to piece it all together, but it has a bit of everything that one uses in their daily decision making process...sub fractals, containers, ve's, pace accelerations, unobservable events, etc...this list goes on! If you have a problem maintaining fractal integrity, this drill will be a challenge.

 

I don't have time to lead a discussion on this exercise, but I thought it worthwhile for some of you to revisit this drill, and perhaps work through it together.

 

Spyder tells us that a new channel begins at 1415 on 10/13/10. The channel ends at 1030 on 10/15/10.

 

Good luck!

 

I found it. Thank you very much. I see what you mean it has the whole kit and kaboodle.

[cnms2 10]

Great question. My response to Jack in that thread indicated I thought we were forming a pt 3 at the end of the day (see chart snippet) and I anticipated a "long" on the open from pt 3 to ftt. This morning's open invalided my anticipation.

 

I'm still trying to annotate this time period to my satisfaction. How would you annotate the end of yesterday and today's gap adjusted open snippet?

 

-river

I believe that lately Jack posts trades based on his price / volume / end effects approach.

[wilddog 10]

I believe that lately Jack posts trades based on his price / volume / end effects approach.

 

I have done a search on ET and cannot find those charts you have posted by Jack, or are they by Jack? I was under the impression Jack uses TN since he has mentioned it a number of times and recently went to their convention.

 

Below are all of Jacks latest post:

 

Forums - Volume

Forums - Did Robert Hoffman really lose 312K in a single TF trade? Yikes!

Forums - Jack Hershey in trading vs Srinivasa Ramanujan in mathematics

Forums - Volume

[cnms2 10]

I have done a search on ET and cannot find those charts you have posted by Jack, or are they by Jack? I was under the impression Jack uses TN since he has mentioned it a number of times and recently went to their convention.

 

Below are all of Jacks latest post:

 

Forums - Volume

Forums - Did Robert Hoffman really lose 312K in a single TF trade? Yikes!

Forums - Jack Hershey in trading vs Srinivasa Ramanujan in mathematics

Forums - Volume

Sorry for the confusion. My statement about Jack's recent posts is not related to the annotations I made on river's charts. Those annotations represent my view, and are in response to river's request.

[eyeamravi 10]

I'm somewhat new to JH method.Currently i've a few basic queries :

(1)I read somewhere in ET Forum,where jack says:Both retrace n reversal occur with declining volume n BO of rtl occurs on low volume(middle part of b2b or r2r).Is it true in all context(Tape,traverse,channel)?

At other places some including spyder tells BO to be meaningful ,should occur on high volume .

(2)Again jack says : ftt or FTT doesn't occur in VE LTL.

Is it true even when a translation bar occurs on VE?

(3)Say-A tape ftt doesn't occur but a traverse or channel FTT occur.In this case do we have to reverse if dom volume is still showing an increasing tendency.

(4)Jack says : Internals(ftp,fbp,sym etc) do not indicate change mode.

suppose i'm trading at tape level,what would be best strategies in two scenarios - when we encounter an internal which occur on a relatively low n high volume(indicated byl PRV)

 

(5)Can SCT rules be applied on higher time frame(15/60/daily) for positional commodity trading,if i am unable to trade stocks using JH Equity method.

 

I currently trade crude oil on indian commodity market(MCX).I can use only few basic tools (price,volume,trendline,PRV) .Is it possible to trade JH method successfully at intermediate/expert level with these basic tools?

Thanks n regards

Ravi

[river 10]

I'm somewhat new to JH method.Currently i've a few basic queries :

(1)I read somewhere in ET Forum,where jack says:Both retrace n reversal occur with declining volume n BO of rtl occurs on low volume(middle part of b2b or r2r).Is it true in all context(Tape,traverse,channel)?

At other places some including spyder tells BO to be meaningful ,should occur on high volume .

(2)Again jack says : ftt or FTT doesn't occur in VE LTL.

Is it true even when a translation bar occurs on VE?

(3)Say-A tape ftt doesn't occur but a traverse or channel FTT occur.In this case do we have to reverse if dom volume is still showing an increasing tendency.

(4)Jack says : Internals(ftp,fbp,sym etc) do not indicate change mode.

suppose i'm trading at tape level,what would be best strategies in two scenarios - when we encounter an internal which occur on a relatively low n high volume(indicated byl PRV)

 

(5)Can SCT rules be applied on higher time frame(15/60/daily) for positional commodity trading,if i am unable to trade stocks using JH Equity method.

 

I currently trade crude oil on indian commodity market(MCX).I can use only few basic tools (price,volume,trendline,PRV) .Is it possible to trade JH method successfully at intermediate/expert level with these basic tools?

Thanks n regards

Ravi

 

eyeamravi,

 

Welcome to the thread. I don’t consider myself an expert on the methodology but I am at least a few steps into the journey. Perhaps someone else will offer their answers to your questions while my post sits in queue to be moderated before it appears and hopefully if anyone finds any of my answers lacking they will post their comments.

 

1) A retrace and a reversal both occur on nondominant volume as price heads toward the RTL, a retrace becomes a reversal as price crosses the RTL on increasing volume. This is true on every fractal.

 

2) Perhaps Jack meant that if price has traversed its container how can it “fail to traverse”?

 

3) A Channel FTT would also be a traverse FTT and a tape FTT. I cannot envision the scenario you describe.

 

4) If we are not in “change” mode, then we must be in “continuation”.

 

5) I am not familiar with any concrete SCT rules. Spydertrader has repeatedly said that the methodology works on any instrument and any timeframe provided there is sufficient liquidity.

 

The tools you mentioned, price, volume, trendlines and PRV, are sufficient for the methodology. Of course, your level of success using the tools available to you depends on your journey.

 

HTH

 

-river

[NYCMB 10]

The attached two degapped charts are for Spydertrader 07/14, 2009 drill which has been under discussion recently.

[patrader 10]

I've had a lot of success with this method. While I'm grateful to spyder for his insights and guidance, most of my success came through self-discovery, using the basics described in this and other threads. I will upload a couple of recent Traverses in hopes that it might encourage others. Success will only come after you achieve complete understanding of how to build containers correctly and manage fractal nesting,

 

Jbarnby,thank you for posting your charts.10-3-2012 at 14:30 est i believe the market completed a down tape putting it at PT 2 of the down traverse.Then two black bars later you put the traverse level PT 3 and annotated a thicker traverse rtl.In this case there was a break of the down tape rtl on ibv on 14:40 est.I believe this increasing black volume bar coupled with the final push down on irv created the traverse fractal.Would this be correct? If in this exact same situation with the only difference being neither 14:35 or 14:40 est were on ibv would the market still create a down traverse or would the fractal stay a down tape (just be fanned)? Tia

Edited January 18, 2013 by patrader

[jbarnby 10]

Jbarnby,thank you for posting your charts.10-3-2012 at 14:30 est i believe the market completed a down tape putting it at PT 2 of the down traverse.Then two black bars later you put the traverse level PT 3 and annotated a thicker traverse rtl.In this case there was a break of the down tape rtl on ibv on 14:40 est.I believe this increasing black volume bar coupled with the final push down on irv created the traverse fractal.Would this be correct? If in this exact same situation with the only difference being neither 14:35 or 14:40 est were on ibv would the market still create a down traverse or would the fractal stay a down tape (just be fanned)? Tia

 

The question sounds simple enough but it's really a bit more complicated than i can fully explain here. When you're able to see all the fractals at play, even at the finest level, you can (as spyder said to me once) move everything down one fractal. He actually walked thru a sequence one time doing just that...which kinda rattled my mind at the time. But volume does play a keen role in our analysis. As has been pointed out in this and other threads, increasing dominant volume confirms pt 3. You will never have a tape/traverse/channel without confirming inc dominant vol after a pt 3.

 

One of the most consistent errors I see on charts is misinterpreting increasing volume, and how it relates to formations. I wish more folks would work hard to differentiate that relationship. Additionally, many of the answers to sequences and volume reside in the relationship of peaks & troughs.

 

I spent so many years playing with trendlines (which are important) but failing to realize all of the important elements of volume that really tell the story.

[wilddog 10]

Jbarnby,thank you for posting your charts.10-3-2012 at 14:30 est i believe the market completed a down tape putting it at PT 2 of the down traverse.Then two black bars later you put the traverse level PT 3 and annotated a thicker traverse rtl.In this case there was a break of the down tape rtl on ibv on 14:40 est.I believe this increasing black volume bar coupled with the final push down on irv created the traverse fractal.Would this be correct? If in this exact same situation with the only difference being neither 14:35 or 14:40 est were on ibv would the market still create a down traverse or would the fractal stay a down tape (just be fanned)? Tia

 

patrader, it is probably worth your while re-reading this thread. Sypders constantly reminds us to focus on the volume pane. The price pane is where we like to look since that is where the profits reside, however the sequences lie in the volume pane.

 

HTH

[patrader 10]

The question sounds simple enough but it's really a bit more complicated than i can fully explain here.

 

jbarnby,thanks again for your comments.I have many questions but will keep it to one question at a time.Hopefully they're not too complicated to answer here.10-3-2012 at 14:30 est i believe the market completed a down tape fractal (where you placed directly below this bar a purple "2"). Would this be correct?

[Frontrunner 10]

When you're able to see all the fractals at play, even at the finest level, you can (as spyder said to me once) move everything down one fractal.

 

JBarnby, thanks for your posts and your commentary. Would you please explain what you mean "when you move everything down one fractal"?

Is it going from a tape to a traverse or a traverse to a tape?

 

Thank you for your help