The Price / Volume Relationship

[patrader 10]

Decreasing black volume Case A followed by an internal formation with Increasing Red volume on second bar (last bar in examples) of internal formation.No fan of the up rtl of the case A due to the fbp's and eh's second bar(last bar in their examples) being red.hth

[wilddog 10]

patrader, please could you post annotated charts Thanks

[patrader 10]

Keeping it simple here is friday 12-21-12 with the two bar cases annotated(except internal formations with decreasing volume on second bar).Ask yourself do you really see each and every 2 bar case no matter what the colors are of the bars? Are you annotating at this basic level correctly? hth

[patrader 10]

12-21-12 with 2 bar cases(except decreasing volume internals) and lateral formations annotated.

[patrader 10]

Here is a simple suggestion on how to "see" and practice annotating the 2 bar cases.In your charting platform turn off the open and close of each bar.Instead of using bar graph type OHLC(open,high,low,close) just use HL(high,low).Focus on correctly annotating each case.Notice how the market forms the 2 bar cases using different colors.Annotate the 2 bar cases till you see them in your sleep.Then when you return to OHLC you will still "see" each 2 bar correctly and be able to annotate them.Attached is 12-21-12 HL.hth

[NYCMB 10]

The attached picture shows my opinion.

Hi SK0,

 

How do you define your XB? Please see the attachment. TIA

 

Edited December 24, 2012 by NYCMB
Adding attachment

[SK0 10]

Hi SK0,

 

How do you define your XB? Please see the attachment. TIA

 

Translation Black is defined as the high and low of "1st bar" in the picture higher than the high and low of "prior bar". It indicates that the price sentiment (tape level) of "1st bar" relative to "prior bar" is long. Open and close are not considered.

 

So....before you know how to annotate on "2nd bar", before you collect the data of "2nd bar", there is a bare minimum of "context" you must form first. What is the price sentiment (tape level) of "1st bar"? Price sentiment is not only long and short, but also include unknown (inside bar or lateral formation). Is the volume of "1st bar" higher or lower than that of "prior bar"? Is the price sentiment dominant (aka increasing volume) or non-dominant (aka decreasing volume)? If dominant, is it X2X or 2X? Last, do you have a change of price sentiment occurred on "1st bar"? A change of price sentiment means ftt at tape level.

 

I know what you are thinking. Personally, I believe that the data of two pairs of adjacent price volume bars are NOT sufficient to annotate presently in particular the non-translation cases. One may get it right sometimes but not all of the time. The best is to annotate at tape level with nothing but the classic principles of the "Pattern" using PRV or 3-min, 2-min or OTR chart whichever make you comfortable. Best of all, there is no new, complicated rules to internalize.

 

Merry Christmas.

[Monkman 10]

I think we are making a lot of progress with this thread. There has been a great deal of information shared over the last couple months which has been priceless. For everyone that has been participating I cannot thank you enough. I wish everyone a Happy Holidays, and am looking forward to the New Year.

[TL Staff 10]

I think we are making a lot of progress with this thread. There has been a great deal of information shared over the last couple months which has been priceless. For everyone that has been participating I cannot thank you enough. I wish everyone a Happy Holidays, and am looking forward to the New Year.

 

Happy Holidays to you too!

[Heisenberg 10]

In the attached chart from jbarnby, assuming it is correct, we see a down traverse.

Let's try to analyse this thing, part by part. I'll apply everything here I have learned from Spyder, Jack and others, but don't assume anything I write is correct.

As it's a down traverse, so the first thing we want look for is R2R.

 

The earlyest that a R2R can occur here, is starting from bar 10. As such, I've annotated the attached chart to reflect this. Do note that I "merge" internals (except laterals). For example, I see bar 1 and bar 2 as a single bar. This implies that bar 3 no longer has increasing volume.

 

The following few bars are the 2B, as can be seen in the chart.

 

Next thing: 2R. The next bars start 2R. We draw the traverse, but we have a ve(tape) and a VE(traverse), whom both close outside their corresponding containers. I think this event implies that the traverse is not yet done. We need to shift the fractals. In other words, the traverse becomes the tape.

[patrader 10]

The attached picture shows my another opinion.

 

SK0 in post #3668 you stated that "if I know 1st bar is XR,I do not need to consider prior bar (& the annotation). I know sentiment change occurs when 2nd bar is of any type of Inside Bar of Increasing Volume,Black or Red." See the attached three bars from 12-26-12 ES.Bar 74/75 is XR (case B) on Increasing red volume.Bar 75/76 is "Inside bar" (fbp) on Increasing black volume.Market then continued down(see second attachment).Could you please comment on this example?

Edited December 26, 2012 by patrader

[jbarnby 10]

In the attached chart from jbarnby, assuming it is correct, we see a down traverse.

Let's try to analyse this thing, part by part. I'll apply everything here I have learned from

Next thing: 2R. The next bars start 2R. We draw the traverse, but we have a ve(tape) and a VE(traverse), whom both close outside their corresponding containers. I think this event implies that the traverse is not yet done. We need to shift the fractals. In other words, the traverse becomes the tape.

 

Looks to me like you're missing an important piece about fractals and the relationship of faster fractals to slower fractals. I'll try to post a new chart or two within the next week.

[Monkman 10]

A little something for today

[Monkman 10]

In the attached chart from jbarnby, assuming it is correct, we see a down traverse.

Let's try to analyse this thing, part by part. I'll apply everything here I have learned from Spyder, Jack and others, but don't assume anything I write is correct.

As it's a down traverse, so the first thing we want look for is R2R.

 

The earlyest that a R2R can occur here, is starting from bar 10. As such, I've annotated the attached chart to reflect this. Do note that I "merge" internals (except laterals). For example, I see bar 1 and bar 2 as a single bar. This implies that bar 3 no longer has increasing volume.

 

The following few bars are the 2B, as can be seen in the chart.

 

Next thing: 2R. The next bars start 2R. We draw the traverse, but we have a ve(tape) and a VE(traverse), whom both close outside their corresponding containers. I think this event implies that the traverse is not yet done. We need to shift the fractals. In other words, the traverse becomes the tape.

 

Here is my attempt at this.

 

With Bar 1 and 2 I would not go as far as to make an assumption that they are a single bar. It does happen to work in this case because you know the prior trend was B2B 2R(Bar 1-6), 2B. When people mention to view these as pairs I believe its because you wait until the next bar, or the following bars for a continuation or change confirmation. Look at Bar 7, that is what I mean by a continuation. Increasing black, bullish formation(bar 6-7). Bar 8, wait, bar 9, increasing volume PRV price increasing, continuation, look for peak volume. Bar 10 Peak volume, Bar 10-11 (this is why I do not think of them as one bar. Bar 11 is where you can first see a potential R2R shift. Bar 12 confirms with increasing Red volume). R2R(Bar 10-12, on Tape fractal. Notice how its not labeled that way in the chart, but that is the way I would label it. Though Jbarnby has had more success than me with so there is probably a reason its labeled that way. If you look at my charts I make mistakes, leave out annotations at times, mess up some annotations real time, that happens when your in the rhythm. Aside from that, if you look at all our charts they may looks very similar but rarely are any exactly the same). R2R(bar 10-12) 2B(bar 12-14), 2R(bar 14-17). Then the rest is a continuation of 2R, with VEs that tell you to steepen the channel. Which I believe also tells you to start looking closely for the FTT, and B2B/R2R change. Often I see, a VE with another VE or retrace. It gets tricky at this point especially mid-day at lower volume levels. Look at Bar 34-36. That is where you get those tricky modified PT3s.

 

The Tape never becomes the Traverse, that is the wrong way to think about it. The Tape and Traverse are separate building blocks. How you could view it imo, is the Traverse has overlap on the Tape's fractal on both price and volume. It starts with Fastest Fractal formations, they build Tapes, which build Traverses.

 

When the Tapes VE they can widen the Traverse channel, in which case you will see overlap in the price pane. Trends Overlap.

 

I hope this helps. If I am off someone please correct me : )

[wilddog 10]

Here is my attempt at this.

 

With Bar 1 and 2 I would not go as far as to make an assumption that they are a single bar. It does happen to work in this case because you know the prior trend was B2B 2R(Bar 1-6), 2B. When people mention to view these as pairs I believe its because you wait until the next bar, or the following bars for a continuation or change confirmation. Look at Bar 7, that is what I mean by a continuation. Increasing black, bullish formation(bar 6-7). Bar 8, wait, bar 9, increasing volume PRV price increasing, continuation, look for peak volume. Bar 10 Peak volume, Bar 10-11 (this is why I do not think of them as one bar. Bar 11 is where you can first see a potential R2R shift. Bar 12 confirms with increasing Red volume). R2R(Bar 10-12, on Tape fractal. Notice how its not labeled that way in the chart, but that is the way I would label it. Though Jbarnby has had more success than me with so there is probably a reason its labeled that way. If you look at my charts I make mistakes, leave out annotations at times, mess up some annotations real time, that happens when your in the rhythm. Aside from that, if you look at all our charts they may looks very similar but rarely are any exactly the same). R2R(bar 10-12) 2B(bar 12-14), 2R(bar 14-17). Then the rest is a continuation of 2R, with VEs that tell you to steepen the channel. Which I believe also tells you to start looking closely for the FTT, and B2B/R2R change. Often I see, a VE with another VE or retrace. It gets tricky at this point especially mid-day at lower volume levels. Look at Bar 34-36. That is where you get those tricky modified PT3s.

 

The Tape never becomes the Traverse, that is the wrong way to think about it. The Tape and Traverse are separate building blocks. How you could view it imo, is the Traverse has overlap on the Tape's fractal on both price and volume. It starts with Fastest Fractal formations, they build Tapes, which build Traverses.

 

When the Tapes VE they can widen the Traverse channel, in which case you will see overlap in the price pane. Trends Overlap.

 

I hope this helps. If I am off someone please correct me : )

 

I think you are overlooking the basics.

 

The 1 is the FTT of the previous up move. A R2R goes from a pt1 to pt2. How do you see bar 10-12 as the R2R?

 

Corey had a chart that showed the the above.

 

HTH

[wilddog 10]

I found it, it was by Nkhoi

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/attachments/34/22529d1286747524-price-volume-relationship-fractal3.png

[SK0 10]

SK0 in post #3668 you stated that "if I know 1st bar is XR,I do not need to consider prior bar (& the annotation). I know sentiment change occurs when 2nd bar is of any type of Inside Bar of Increasing Volume,Black or Red." See the attached three bars from 12-26-12 ES.Bar 74/75 is XR (case B) on Increasing red volume.Bar 75/76 is "Inside bar" (fbp) on Increasing black volume.Market then continued down(see second attachment).Could you please comment on this example?

 

I am not an achieved and wholly JHM student as I don't depend on geometry very much except for the obvious cases. So I would have a hard time to "comment" from your perspective.

 

I have written a brief note on how I see the last 15 bars on 12/26/2012. If it confuses you, just drag the file into the trash bin.

 

Good trading.

12262012.txt

[NYCMB 10]

I am not an achieved and wholly JHM student as I don't depend on geometry very much except for the obvious cases. So I would have a hard time to "comment" from your perspective.

 

I have written a brief note on how I see the last 15 bars on 12/26/2012. If it confuses you, just drag the file into the trash bin.

 

Good trading.

Hi SK0,

 

Is my chart coorrect regarding to Dominance and Non-dominance based on slope?

[patrader 10]

Attached is my annotation for bar 74-76 on 12-26-12 ES.I have broken the three bars down into pieces how i would annotate it.The first 2 bars form a case B which i annotate.Then the last 2 bars form a case F(fbp) which i annotate.Notice how the fbp is annotated with downward sloping trendlines even though the second bar of the fbp is a black bar.This is a purely mechanical annotation simply because its a case F(fbp).The second bar of the case F can be either red or black and the annotation is the same.Next i show the annotations of each case combined.Finally i show a "merged" version of the two cases together.So how does this benefit us to annotate the cases? Can each annotation give us insight into the market's latest movement.How does the annotation of internal formations fit into all this? Notice if you only annotate the case B(see attachment) a trader may misinterpret the close outside the case B's rtl on increasing black volume as a change in trend.If the case F is annotated there is no close outside the rtl because you use the top of the fbp to annotate the rtl.The market would need at least another bar to close outside the case F's rtl.I have found annotating the cases combined with the overall read of the trend to be indispensable.The purpose of posting all the different combinations of cases was in the hope others may find value thru the refinement of annotating the cases.hth

[cnms2 10]

Added a few notes to SK0's purple and green trendlines.

[wilddog 10]

Added a few notes to SK0's purple and green trendlines.

 

cnms2, what is a VE zone?

 

Thanks

[cnms2 10]

cnms2, what is a VE zone?

 

Thanks

Bar closing at left of LTL (see Jack Hershey).

[SK0 10]

Is my chart coorrect regarding to Dominance and Non-dominance based on slope?

 

Yes. I have added some notes on cnms2 chart.

[wilddog 10]

Bar closing at left of LTL (see Jack Hershey).

 

 

Thanks, I don't read Jacks writings. Too difficult to understand.

 

Spyder never had VE zones. He would use the previous pt3 as a new pt1 and would create a faster container.

 

Trading FTT to FTT would not be possible with VE zones, since there are no FTT's only VE's

[rs5 10]

Hello Everyone

 

My best wishes to ALL for a Healthy, Happy and Very Prosperous New Year!