The Price / Volume Relationship

[cnms2 10]

End of bar....do you mean that could be a valid approach? Does anybody actually trade like this (successfully)? My feeling was it would put the stop too far away? Have seen one or two mentions by Spyder regarding EOB trading but nothing clear...But I really am eager to hear your comments on this...

 

In a related matter,I am looking for a good way to enter Pt 3's....they seen easy to spot....considering only the 5 min ES and the 2 Min YM, what I came up with is, after the ES x2x , the ES retrace pt 2-3. Then enter End of YM Bar when you get one of the SFC's (see above post) on the 2 min YM. I also filter them into the ones that retrace a certain percentage of the pt 1-2 move, but that is just a personal technique designed to stop me from entering too soon.

 

I saw other suggestions (from Vorzo in the IR thread "For 123 pt3s, I like to see one bar in the direction of the 123 channel to consider it a pt3, and will enter on next bar if it breaks the end of the pt3 bar (BBO) on rising volume (over prior bar) and fast or extreme PRV.") but this seems very late for many pt 3's?

 

Thanks!

 

Vienna

Yes. I believe "end of bar" to be a low stress valid approach.

If I trust the rest of spydertrader's teachings and recommendations, I see no reason not to believe him on the "end of bar" too. He seems to have went through all the tools, and eventually to settle for a lower stress approach of just a few trades / reversals per day.

With this method price stops are not meant to be hit, excepting in rare emergency situations.

To be clear: trading "end of bar" means that you'll not usually trade at the optimum moment, not even on the optimum bar, but you don't really need to do so. You just need a way of making money in a consistent manner. It is like in The Rolling Stones' song: "You can't always get what you want / But if you try sometime you just might find / You get what you need".

[xioxxio 10]

"Because we have chosen to use the ES five minute as our trading 'view' of the market, we may experience a 'change signal' just before, just at or just after the period of time we refer to as 'the now.' As a trader, each must decide how to define 'sufficient data set' with respect to their particular trading resolution, and more importantly, knowledge and experience. As long as each trader defines their specific rule set, and then, maintains the discipline required to follow the rule set, then the trader has already fought half the battle. Ultimately, the market decides, whether or not, a specific rule set with respect to 'sufficiency' measures as appropriate and timely. Every other opinion matters little and effects the bottom line not at all.

 

- Spydertrader"

[Ezzy 10]

Fractal Jumping

 

I sometimes jump to a finer fractal unintentionally. Would like to hear from others and how they corrected it.

 

This tends to occur more often around fanning out of pt3. Looking back it is easy to see it but in real time this is not the case.

 

Thanks

 

Spydertrader once told me that "if you can't see the cycle on the 15m you're trading at too fine a level." It may not always help during real time but sometimes zooming out helps regain perspective when things get slow or sideways (fanning) and you find yourself zooming in (to the 2min YM or 1min ES). At least in my case, when things got confusing I'd get stuck looking closer and closer instead of the bigger picture.

 

Regards,

 

EZ

[vienna 10]

Sounds good... can see how that would work for traverse level FTT's.

But what about traverse level Pt 3's? It seems that there, EOB would get you in too late...?

 

Thanks!

 

Vienna

 

Yes. I believe "end of bar" to be a low stress valid approach.....You just need a way of making money in a consistent manner.]

[cnms2 10]

Sounds good... can see how that would work for traverse level FTT's.

But what about traverse level Pt 3's? It seems that there, EOB would get you in too late...?

 

Thanks!

 

Vienna

Pt3 trading is pushing the traverse trading one level finer, and choosing to trade only the second anticipated dominant traverse.

On each chart resolution, the traverse level is the one that is the best defined by the volume sequences, and it is the optimum for the "end of bar" approach.

[xioxxio 10]

This is an interesting discussion. Where one trades within the 5 minute timeframe is more of a confidence issue regarding your specific edge. IN MY OPINION the PRV is one of the most important tools in this mythology. If you trade at the end of the timeframe one would not need such a tool. You would wait for the bar to close and make your decision.

 

Personally I trade intra bar timeframe based on the PRV and wash trades if need be. I place a stop where the edge would be negated. Once your edge has been validated, one should take the trade.

 

At the end of the day, trading is execution not analysis.

[vienna 10]

Quote from CNMS2: "To be clear: trading "end of bar" means that you'll not usually trade at the optimum moment, not even on the optimum bar, but you don't really need to do so. You just need a way of making money in a consistent manner."

 

-When you say 'trading End of bar" do you mean that ALL decisions are made end of bar? Or just the Entry decision?

What about if you are long off an FTT, now price goes down (bar turns red) with increasing PRV. Are you still holding until End of bar? What about washes?

 

Thanks!

Vienna

[vienna 10]

This is an interesting discussion. Where one trades within the 5 minute timeframe is more of a confidence issue regarding your specific edge. IN MY OPINION the PRV is one of the most important tools in this mythology. If you trade at the end of the timeframe one would not need such a tool. You would wait for the bar to close and make your decision.

 

Personally I trade intra bar timeframe based on the PRV and wash trades if need be. I place a stop where the edge would be negated. Once your edge has been validated, one should take the trade.

 

At the end of the day, trading is execution not analysis.

 

Did you call this a "mythology" instead of a "methodology" on purpose?

[xioxxio 10]

Did you call this a "mythology" instead of a "methodology" on purpose?

 

That is pretty funny. Hopefully it was not a Freudian slip, rather fat fingers, since I use it.

 

Well spotted.

[cnms2 10]

Quote from CNMS2: "To be clear: trading "end of bar" means that you'll not usually trade at the optimum moment, not even on the optimum bar, but you don't really need to do so. You just need a way of making money in a consistent manner."

 

 

-When you say 'trading End of bar" do you mean that ALL decisions are made end of bar? Or just the Entry decision?

What about if you are long off an FTT, now price goes down (bar turns red) with increasing PRV. Are you still holding until End of bar? What about washes?

 

Thanks!

Vienna

I meant taking routine trades close to the end of the bar, or when there is only a slim chance that your analysis of that bar can still be materially affected. Obviously you have to use the emergency breaks if something out of ordinary happens: a news spike, etc.. I don't think that washes can be reconciled with end of bar trading.

[xioxxio 10]

I have attached a perfect example where I would jump fractals. Live market now in SPI.

 

Either B2B or fanning out of 3. The confusion is due to the red volume bars prior to the black are much higher, increasing red vs decreasing black.

 

Any suggestions appreciated.

 

Thanks

Edited May 30, 2012 by xioxxio

[xioxxio 10]

Not always this clean.

[xioxxio 10]

I thought I would give one more update.

 

Market is very tight, my brain is on fire with WMCN

[vienna 10]

I have attached a perfect example where I would jump fractals. Live market now in SPI.

 

Either B2B or fanning out of 3. The confusion is due to the red volume bars prior to the black are much higher, increasing red vs decreasing black.

 

Any suggestions appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

You broke the red RTL on Inc black volume (intrabar)...good enough does not say it has to CLOSE above the RTL on black volume.... Then you get a black bar that clears the RTL (Mak term). That means that red container is done, finished for the time being. So you have B2B and can anticipate a retrace toe pt 3 (which might well happen inside the previous red traverse) and then you need IBV to confirm the pt 3. Note that this whole new up traverse is probably nondom - THAT is what the lower black vol bars tell you.

 

 

hth, just my opinion

vienna

[xioxxio 10]

I have attached a chart which shows Spyders toolset for TN and the other chart shows regular volume based on up/down colour coding based off the close. See the huge discrepancy. One is decreasing black the other is deceasing red.

 

Would like to hear people's thoughts.

 

Thanks

[xioxxio 10]

This time Spyders tool set won the battle. It is not always the case

 

I would still like to hear thoughts, I think Ninja Trader users also have Spyders toolset.

 

Thanks

[Corey 10]

I have attached a chart which shows Spyders toolset for TN and the other chart shows regular volume based on up/down colour coding based off the close. See the huge discrepancy. One is decreasing black the other is deceasing red.

 

Would like to hear people's thoughts.

 

Thanks

based on this TN vol coloring is more advance than NT vol coloring.

[xioxxio 10]

based on this TN vol coloring is more advance than NT vol coloring.

 

I just had a quick check. You are right, there looks like a very small difference.

[xioxxio 10]

Is there anyone who is trading the SPI and would like to compare charts in real time or EOD?

 

PM me, my chart is attached.

[FJK 10]

I have attached a perfect example where I would jump fractals. Live market now in SPI.

 

Either B2B or fanning out of 3. The confusion is due to the red volume bars prior to the black are much higher, increasing red vs decreasing black.

 

Any suggestions appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

 

Let's say that a red sequence starts like you've annotated it on your chart. Bar two starts a lateral, and without any lateral FBO's, everything inside the lateral is part of a faster fractal, which should be ignored. This means that the gaussian R2R should be extended to the IBGS bar around 10:45. Therefore, the black bars that comes afterwards can only be onle thing - a non-dominant building block (2B). You need an additional red building block (with increasing volume - 2R) to complete the sequence.

 

My advise:

 

1: Research the role of laterals and the meaning for your trading fractal

2: Look at how Spyder annotate gaussians. It's different from your method. Perhaps you can improve in this regard...

[xioxxio 10]

This means that the gaussian R2R should be extended to the IBGS bar around 10:45. Therefore, the black bars that comes afterwards can only be onle thing - a non-dominant building block (2B). You need an additional red building block (with increasing volume - 2R) to complete the sequence.

 

 

I see it now, thanks. Would that not be the case with carry over? In Australia the stocks open from 10:00am to 10:08am so I usually ignore the first two bars of the day. I then start looking for the for the pt1 to pt2 to p3.

 

Cary over does not always work.

Edited May 31, 2012 by xioxxio

[FJK 10]

Cary over does not always work.

 

 

I've been trading the ES for 5 years now. Carry-over works every day. I don't trade Australia stocks so I can't comment on those though.

[tickit 10]

This thread has been a mammoth read, but a really interesting one!

 

Can anyone explain PRV and its useage in a bit greater detail? How big a factor is PRV in each setup?

 

Also, in Mak's spreadsheet, why is the PRV tendency measured and logged over ten 30 second intervals? - how is this information used? I couldn't see anything about this in Spydertraders Hershey PDF

 

thanks in advance

[xioxxio 10]

This thread has been a mammoth read, but a really interesting one!

 

Can anyone explain PRV and its useage in a bit greater detail? How big a factor is PRV in each setup?

 

Also, in Mak's spreadsheet, why is the PRV tendency measured and logged over ten 30 second intervals? - how is this information used? I couldn't see anything about this in Spydertraders Hershey PDF

 

thanks in advance

 

A good place to start.

 

Forums - Spydertrader's Jack Hershey Futures Trading Journal

[xioxxio 10]

5 minute Bloomberg data from March to now.