The Price / Volume Relationship

[FilterTip 10]

Thought I'd drop a 15min in here.

 

Update 7.

Been a grind and a drag dragging the thiner black rtl,

but it us what it is...until it isn't I suppose.

 

The lateral from 12:00 looks to me to be a non dom lateral.

 

still holding long but not much umph here at the highs of the day.

Waiting for inc black vol to kick in.

Edited February 24, 2012 by FilterTip

[FilterTip 10]

Update 8.

 

timed out updating last post..has it relly been that long.

 

Covered my long @ 1365.50 B/E.

 

That was a shame being up 1.5 points,

So that 13:15 doji was it..?

 

Presently flat.

 

Update 9.

I'm tentively short (if such a thing exists) @ 1365.00.

i've superimposed an Orange (very fruity) "thing" with it's possible volume.

so we could be in a non dom leg of that.

As volume looks more about that in view of the action at the highs of the day.

 

15 min Update.

We may be in that non -dom ( P2 to P3) thing that I was mindfull of from yesterday.

ie: yesterday/today was still going to a P2 of larger up container.

Just some thoughts

Edited February 24, 2012 by FilterTip

[FilterTip 10]

Explaining the Orange Thingy.

 

see chart notes.

 

But to add. it amounts to the same thing as this non dom leg

on the 15 min chart...sorry for the intrusion...

normal programming will resume shortly..

 

Presently still short from 1365.00

 

Update 10

covered shorts @ 1362.25

 

Presently flat and somewhat hungry..

 

Update 11

 

Short @ 1362.25

So back to those VE's thingy that I asked about before...

 

Shouldn't we get another move down..a return to red dominance ?

Edited February 24, 2012 by FilterTip

[FilterTip 10]

Update 11

 

My entry @1362.25 was not good.

I added a short @ 1363.00.

 

so as to return to red dom..

what do Ve have here ?

 

I suppose it is it but I'm still left with the same two

questions from yesterday..

1) how do we know if it will go araound again or not..

2) where's the ftt at 14;40 ?

 

Presently short

 

Update 12.

 

didn't see the move whilst typing.

covered shorts late and reversed long @ 1363.50

 

Presently long

[amisme 10]

Hope you closed out your longs near the top of the 16:00 bar. Thanks a bunch for the play by play, by the way.

 

I changed some of my annotation habits, or maybe I shifted fractal levels, I'm not sure.

 

Painfully low volume day. I don't feel good trading these conditions, but I watched FilterTip's play by play intently. Gave me a lot of insight to my own emotional and mental state at the points he was calling.

 

My hunch is that up channel ended at 13:15 EST on the doji that pokes out of the lateral, and we had down traverse from there moving from p1 to p2 of the channel.

 

I am indecisive about 14:40 on. I followed it as a continuation of the down traverse and annotated red dom starting at 15:30, but I'm questioning that. Looks like we will have to look at Monday to provide clarity.

[vienna 10]

Update 11

 

 

 

Presently long

 

Cool stuff...I like the gaussian projections... same amisme...you guys have the gaussians on diff fractals down pat...perhaps I can learn some here...

[vienna 10]

Question re Tick charts:

 

Is there somebody here who really gets the Tick charts?

 

I have been staring at them for weeks now, attempting to see what JH describes in the Video (the pairs shifting "favoring" etc.), and what is described in the threads...and I just can't see it...perhaps I am especially dense in this regard...

 

So, if you do know, please kindly point out to me what I am missing...I included 3 FTT's from yesterday and today...It is clear to me that you can visualize gaussians etc on that chart as well...but what I am looking for is the specific point on the Tick-chart where you see the change in direction.... I can't seem to be able to do that, even in hindsight...:-D

 

many thanks,

 

Vienna

[vienna 10]

So back to those VE's thingy that I asked about before...

 

Shouldn't we get another move down..a return to red dominance ?

 

This is regarding your question regarding yesterday... see attached.

Don't let my brilliant hindsight analysis fool you... in realtime, I was stupefied like the proverbial cow in front of the barn door....

 

Cheerio, Vienna

[FilterTip 10]

Today's Review;

 

6 Trades:

 

Trade 1:

B 2 @ 1364.50

S 1 @ 1365.75 +1.25

S 1 @ 1366.00 +1.50

+ 2.75

 

Trade 2:

S @ 1364.75

B @ 1365.50

- 0.50 (was up 1.75)

 

Trade 3:

B @ 1365.50

S @ 1365.50

0 (was up +2.00)

 

Trade 4:

S @ 1365.00

B @ 1362.25

+ 2.75

 

Trade 5;

S @ 1362.25

S @ 1363.00

B 2 @ 1363.50

- 1.75 (was up 0.75)

 

Trade 6:

B @ 1365.50

S @ 1365.50

0 (was up 0.50)

 

Total:

+ 1.75

Was up +10.00

 

So I'm thinking I was the right side of the market for 10 points

in a day with a 6 point range.

 

Also thinking what's the point of entering if i don't know when to exit.

 

I admit Trade 5 the sell at 1362.25 was wrong, although I recall seeing incresing red vol

when I went in, but the bar turned and closed up pronto.

 

I'm pleased with the rest, entry wise.

Although being late to exit leads to being late to enter the other way.

 

I didn't like the way things topped out on that doji, not that what I think has any baring.

It does however highlight two things;

1) this method is based on difinitive principles but often involves a degree of ambiguity.

That may seem a contradiction hence number two:

2) this method is, imo, a sort of reverse to normal thinking.

ie: here we take action and then see if it is confirmed, where as a "normal" approach, for the sake of a better word, is the opposite.

3) When what we require for that confirmation does not arrive, that in itself becomes a confirmation, so there is a sort of overlap loop that we , again in my oppinion, need to always cary in our mind.

 

Doing todays posts reminded me of how hard it is to post and a certain sense of the forum as a whole. I hope it's been at the least enjoyable and at the most, helpfull.

 

Someone, and we all know who, gave an inordinate amount of their time and effort to a lot of those that I see post from time to time and/or log in for a read.

 

I'm no authority by any means, and don't mean to imply I am, but what ever I know, baring the inordinate help shared with one particular member (who if reading these last posts is probably scratching their head thinking WTF. High there btw) most is out of the effort given by yours truely.

 

So this is sort of a respect to him and hope he is well.

 

Hmmm..I need to eat something..

 

Cheers

Edited February 24, 2012 by FilterTip

[FilterTip 10]

This is regarding your question regarding yesterday... see attached.

Don't let my brilliant hindsight analysis fool you... in realtime, I was stupefied like the proverbial cow in front of the barn door....

 

Cheerio, Vienna

 

Vienna.

Thx, that is very helpful.

I admit I've not ventured down the finer tool set for a long time.

I will need and want to, as even intra bar analysis on a coarse 5 min chart is required.

Many thx.

 

Btw, with the pigs ear I made of that sell @1362.25 no problem with the farm stuff..

 

I've been hungry all day and more so now.

Whether you know it or not a Vienna is a kosher sausage that you boil, not grill.

With rhye bread and mustard it's pretty good.

 

Cheers.

Edited February 24, 2012 by FilterTip

[FilterTip 10]

Today's Review;

 

6 Trades:

 

Trade 1:

B 2 @ 1364.50

S 1 @ 1365.75 +1.25

S 1 @ 1366.00 +1.50

+ 2.75

 

Trade 2:

S @ 1364.75

B @ 1365.50

- 0.50 (was up 1.75)

 

Trade 3:

B @ 1365.50

S @ 1365.50

0 (was up +2.00)

 

Trade 4:

S @ 1365.00

B @ 1362.25

+ 2.75

 

Trade 5;

S @ 1362.25

S @ 1363.00

B 2 @ 1363.50

- 1.75 (was up 0.75)

 

Trade 6:

B @ 1365.50

S @ 1365.50

0 (was up 0.50)

 

Total:

+ 1.75

Was up +10.00

 

So I'm thinking I was the right side of the market for 10 points

in a day with a 6 point range.

 

Also thinking what's the point of entering if i don't know when to exit.

 

I admit Trade 5 the sell at 1362.25 was wrong, although I recall seeing incresing red vol

when I went in, but the bar turned and closed up pronto.

 

I'm pleased with the rest, entry wise.

Although being late to exit leads to being late to enter the other way.

 

I didn't like the way things topped out on that doji, not that what I think has any baring.

It does however highlight two things;

1) this method is based on difinitive principles but often involves a degree of ambiguity.

That may seem a contradiction hence number two:

2) this method is, imo, a sort of reverse to normal thinking.

ie: here we take action and then see if it is confirmed, where as a "normal" approach, for the sake of a better word, is the opposite.

3) When what we require for that confirmation does not arrive, that in itself becomes a confirmation, so there is a sort of overlap loop that we , again in my oppinion, need to always cary in our mind.

 

Doing todays posts reminded me of how hard it is to post and a certain sense of the forum as a whole. I hope it's been at the least enjoyable and at the most, helpfull.

 

Someone, and we all know who, gave an inordinate amount of their time and effort to a lot of those that I see post from time to time and/or log in for a read.

 

I'm no authority by any means, and don't mean to imply I am, but what ever I know, baring the inordinate help shared with one particular member (who if reading these last posts is probably scratching their head thinking WTF. High there btw) most is out of the effort given by yours truely.

 

So this is sort of a respect to him and hope he is well.

 

Hmmm..I need to eat something..

 

Cheers

 

This ridiculous time limit on editing posts;

 

my math was wrong;

 

Total = + 3.25 (not + 1.75) apologies.

[wilddog 10]

Tick charts are for SCT trading, you cannot identify a FTT on a 5 minute time frame from a tick chart.

[xioxxio 10]

1) this method is based on difinitive principles but often involves a degree of ambiguity.

That may seem a contradiction hence number two:

2) this method is, imo, a sort of reverse to normal thinking.

ie: here we take action and then see if it is confirmed, where as a "normal" approach, for the sake of a better word, is the opposite.

3) When what we require for that confirmation does not arrive, that in itself becomes a confirmation, so there is a sort of overlap loop that we , again in my oppinion, need to always cary in our mind.

Cheers

 

2) in Spyder's words "what must come next?"

3) in Spyder's words "what wasn't that?

 

Its all part of M-A-D-A specifically Analyze.

[cnms2 10]

Question re Tick charts:

 

Is there somebody here who really gets the Tick charts?

 

I have been staring at them for weeks now, attempting to see what JH describes in the Video (the pairs shifting "favoring" etc.), and what is described in the threads...and I just can't see it...perhaps I am especially dense in this regard...

 

So, if you do know, please kindly point out to me what I am missing...I included 3 FTT's from yesterday and today...It is clear to me that you can visualize gaussians etc on that chart as well...but what I am looking for is the specific point on the Tick-chart where you see the change in direction.... I can't seem to be able to do that, even in hindsight...:-D

 

many thanks,

 

Vienna

As you wrote, you can use the OTR chart to draw containers and gaussians x2x2y2x, but you can also watch in real time the price flipping between bid and ask. You can see this flipping in real time on the 5 min chart too, but it is more clearly seen on the OTR, because you don't have the constraint of the time axis and the OHLC bars. The price flipping shows alternate periods of sticking to either the high or the low of the pair. You can see how the dominance changes based on the relative duration of the sicking high and low. You can see how this ratio changes from favoring on side to favoring the other side. If you look at a tick chart you can get an idea of that flipping. It's not like you could differentiate a 5 minute FTT on the OTR chart from other fine dominance changes on the fastest fractal, but that 5 min FTT is one of those dominance changes, so by aligning all the fractals' changes you can (seemingly) pin point the ideal 5 min dominance change point down to one tick.

[xioxxio 10]

As you wrote, you can use the OTR chart to draw containers and gaussians x2x2y2x, but you can also watch in real time the price flipping between bid and ask. You can see this flipping in real time on the 5 min chart too, but it is more clearly seen on the OTR, because you don't have the constraint of the time axis and the OHLC bars. The price flipping shows alternate periods of sticking to either the high or the low of the pair. You can see how the dominance changes based on the relative duration of the sicking high and low. You can see how this ratio changes from favoring on side to favoring the other side. If you look at a tick chart you can get an idea of that flipping. It's not like you could differentiate a 5 minute FTT on the OTR chart from other fine dominance changes on the fastest fractal, but that 5 min FTT is one of those dominance changes, so by aligning all the fractals' changes you can (seemingly) pin point the ideal 5 min dominance change point down to one tick.

 

 

You are assuming you know it is an FTT. However if it is a flaw, which may look like an FTT (What wasn't that?) which in it self is looking backwards. The same thought process MADA applies on all fractals. Once an event has happened it is easy to identify that event.

[cnms2 10]

 

You are assuming you know it is an ftt. However if it is a flaw, which may look like an ftt (what wasn't that?) which in it self is looking backwards.

 

The same thought process mada applies on all fractals. Once an event has happened it is easy to identify that event.

I understand things differently, so I reach different conclusions.

 

Firstly, MADA is applied from coarse to fine, not simultaneously, in parallel.

 

Secondly, trends overlap, so there is a period over which the dominance gradually changes. There is a tipping point, but the process is not sudden. Going from coarse to fine, this period gets narrower.

 

Also, WMCN is not prediction, and WWT / WTF is a rare exception, not a tool.

[vienna 10]

.....The price flipping shows alternate periods of sticking to either the high or the low of the pair.....You can see how the dominance changes based on the relative duration of the sicking high and low. ....You can see how this ratio changes from favoring on side to favoring the other side.......you can (seemingly) pin point the ideal 5 min dominance change point down to one tick.

 

Thank you for you contributions, I really appreciate them! You have been around, and I find your comments very good...could you do me a favor? Could you put an arrow on my charts where exactly "this ratio changes from favoring on side to favoring the other side"? (I know about the direction of the sweep ES>YM> Str-Sq>Dom> Tick chart), and I know this stuff is dangerous if you look at it out of context...that is why I selected actual FTT's)...the idea is, if it is visible in realtime, it should be visible in hindsight, right? Same as an FTT, which can be clearly seen on a 5 Min chart after the fact....

 

"the relative duration of the sticking high and low"- what exactly do you mean by that? I know that during an FTT bar, price kind of hesitates and stalls as it makes an attempt to reach the LTL (Ivo wrote about this), so this effect is something that could be shown only on video, not on a static chart....Are you saying the OTR Chart does the same? JH's instructions on his video seemed to imply that the pattern of the OTR bars showed the shift (so it should be visible in hindsight)...

 

So: do you mean that more OTR Bars get printed on one side than on another, until the shift, or do you mean that individual OTR bars take longer to form (which would make it hard to see in hindsight)...?

 

Thanks for your time!

 

Vienna

[amisme 10]

I've done very little with it myself, but this may be useful. Here's the picture that was posted along with Spydertrader's introduction of the tick chart in the first futures journal. The picture shows more bars on the dominant side of a 2 pair, though I would guess that time and also volume would be parts of the puzzle as well.

[vienna 10]

Here's the picture that was posted along with Spydertrader's introduction of the tick chart in the first futures journal. The picture shows more bars on the dominant side of a 2 pair, though I would guess that time and also volume would be parts of the puzzle as well.

 

Yes thank you, I am aware of that schematic by JH, that is what I was referring to...my problem is, I can't seem to locate this pattern on most FTT's I look at...take my examples. I can kind of see this (=shift in the number of bars) occurring in one of the 3 examples but not in the 2 others...

 

Best,

 

Vienna

[cnms2 10]

Thank you for you contributions, I really appreciate them! You have been around, and I find your comments very good...could you do me a favor? Could you put an arrow on my charts where exactly "this ratio changes from favoring on side to favoring the other side"? (I know about the direction of the sweep ES>YM> Str-Sq>Dom> Tick chart), and I know this stuff is dangerous if you look at it out of context...that is why I selected actual FTT's)...the idea is, if it is visible in realtime, it should be visible in hindsight, right? Same as an FTT, which can be clearly seen on a 5 Min chart after the fact....

 

"the relative duration of the sticking high and low"- what exactly do you mean by that? I know that during an FTT bar, price kind of hesitates and stalls as it makes an attempt to reach the LTL (Ivo wrote about this), so this effect is something that could be shown only on video, not on a static chart....Are you saying the OTR Chart does the same? JH's instructions on his video seemed to imply that the pattern of the OTR bars showed the shift (so it should be visible in hindsight)...

 

So: do you mean that more OTR Bars get printed on one side than on another, until the shift, or do you mean that individual OTR bars take longer to form (which would make it hard to see in hindsight)...?

 

Thanks for your time!

 

Vienna

You're correct: the stickiness to bid and ask, as well as the stickiness to one bid/ask pair and to the next bid/ask pair can be seen in real time, or on a video recording. The tick chart gives you some idea of this happening, but both the OTR and the tick charts use event driven x-axis.

 

To illustrate what I tried to explain in my previous reply to you, and to answer your latest questions I attach three pictures:

 

1st: Jack's well known hand drawing "2 pair spike", on which I grouped the bid/ask flips in red and green squares. The drawing depicts how events would be seen on a time driven x-axis display. Time rolls on the x-axis at constant speed, so the OTR bars would appear of variable width, function of how long it takes the price to go to the next bid/ask pair. Red squares mark lower new bid/ask, and green squares mark higher new bid/ask pairs.

 

2nd: I blew out the charts around the first example you brought in discussion. By annotating RTLs and gaussians on the OTR, it can be seen how nicely the things roll from long dominance to short dominance, with completed sequences on multiple sub-fractals (NO NOISE!). In yellow I highlighted the ultimate change window on both the OTR and the tick charts. On the tick chart it can be seen how the bid/ask pair that follows the last high (very short) peak "sticks" for longer time. The OTR and the tick charts have different x-axis being driven by different events. The correspondence between events can be easily deciphered using the 5 minute red vertical makers, and the 2 minute white vertical markers, corresponding to the ES 5 minute, and YM 2 minute OHLC charts.

 

3rd: I marked in red the change in dominance on your chart snippet, and on my added tick chart snippet.

[vienna 10]

 

..... (NO NOISE!)....

 

Outstanding. TYVM!!

 

Vienna

[FilterTip 10]

This is my view.

5 min and 15 min attached.

 

Got a bit messed up first thing (platform issues don't you know)

 

Presently long.

 

I'll see how things pan out at end of day.

(not a "blow by blow" today you'll all be pleased to hear )

[FilterTip 10]

That turned out well.

Did exactly what it said on the tin..

 

Update 2

I see that blue largest container ending.

 

Added the 15min.

But the NoGap chart's gone wierd on me, so not sure about the angle

of the largest blue container.

 

Presently short.

Edited February 27, 2012 by FilterTip

[Corey 10]

That turned out well.

Did exactly what it said on the tin..

 

Update 2

I see that blue largest container ending.

 

Added the 15min.

But the NoGap chart's gone wierd on me, ....

make sure bar look back in setting = infinite instead of default 256

[FilterTip 10]

make sure bar look back in setting = infinite instead of default 256

 

Thank you Corey for that info.

I appear to have had a NoGapPrevious day loaded fro some reason.

 

Have put on the NoGap (more than previous day)

 

Got my orientaion on that large blue container,

which has VE'd, oh my now what...

Have put on a new RTL to account for that VE, so things have ended up at the same place

in the end, being short that is.

 

thx again..

Edited February 27, 2012 by FilterTip