The Price / Volume Relationship

[patrader 10]

check out the thick red slower down container's rtl still in play.hth

[amisme 10]

I see an up traverse in the early day that VEs and accelerates steeply. At 10:15, I get flummoxed. Starting a lateral there is the only way I can see things making sense, except that the second bar breaks the high of the first bar by one tick. So it is not a lateral formation in the ten cases sense, but it just...works, laterally. I'm not sure if I'm learning something I should be learning or making up my own thing that will cause me trouble later.

 

The up traverse starts yesterday (going by cnms2's corrections), but the tape expansion and slope change in the early day today prompted me to use the 07:00 bar to set the slope of the up traverse container.

 

Two spots on this chart I don't quite like. I'll be coming back to this later to see what it looks like after I've stepped away for a bit.

[amisme 10]

A sleepy day.

 

I am not certain that these are traverses rather than tapes. Annotating them as traverses requires that I ignore my rule of always requiring a visible FTT to end a tape. This was discussed earlier in the thread and did not seem to have a conclusion as to whether or not the tape end effect had to be visible on a 5m ES chart.

 

When it came down to it, I decided I'd rather treat them as traverses than tapes.

[cnms2 10]

A sleepy day.

 

I am not certain that these are traverses rather than tapes. Annotating them as traverses requires that I ignore my rule of always requiring a visible FTT to end a tape. This was discussed earlier in the thread and did not seem to have a conclusion as to whether or not the tape end effect had to be visible on a 5m ES chart.

 

When it came down to it, I decided I'd rather treat them as traverses than tapes.

The way I apply jokari the pt2 up is ~11:30 PST. It seems you don't use the translation based color coding (higher low and higher high => black, lower high and lower low => red).

[amisme 10]

Revised 2/17/2012 chart. Tomorrow I look for a new traverse down or an FBO and continuation of up traverse.

 

Thanks everyone who provided input on my last few days. I've gotten a lot of good tips specifically on how I should be reading volume and defining tapes.

[amisme 10]

I've never decided for certain what should be done with these partial days. The character of the market is so different, it reminds me of what Jack said about why after-hours trading is irrelevant to intraday fractal continuation. Is the character of a partial trading day sufficiently in line with RTH trading to be a part of our continuous fractals?

 

Regardless, whatever just happened did not break the up traverse from last Friday.

[xioxxio 10]

Does anyone know where to find Spyders notes are on "2pairs", I see in BigMoose summary notes, he quotes Spyder.

 

 

Thanks

Edited February 21, 2012 by xioxxio

[amisme 10]

Awkward carryover.

 

Channels still elude me. I tried drawing in an up channel, using 12:30 bar of 2/15 as point 1 and 12:30 bar of today as point 3, but didn't feel good about it. I'm changing a lot of what I thought I knew about drawing price containers and the volume on that time frame is not clear to me.

[xioxxio 10]

Hi,

 

Looking to hear form people who trade ftt to pt2. I have attached an example from the STOXX50 today. The ftt to to pt2 was 11 ticks, the pt2 to pt 3 gave back 7 ticks?

 

 

What should I be looking at?

[amisme 10]

2/22 chart and debrief for your reading pleasure

 

I dislike that I am lacking in tape-level volume annotations, but with the clear dominance changes in volume, I felt these had to be traverses. Volume below that fractal level was usually not clear to me.

 

Due to time zones, I will refer to bars by bar number.

 

Of note: bar 17 may be discounted as a possible FTT because bar 18 closed inside the range of bar 17. I did not think this was meaningful on this resolution level, but I read a bar-by-bar recently where Spydertrader discounted a bar as a possible FTT because the close of the next bar did not break that bar's boundaries. I'll watch for this from now on and see how it holds up.

 

Bar 19 was a volume peak, followed by a bar on somewhat less volume but with drastically less volatility. I've learned to watch for this as an indicator of an FTT. Price is failing to go further into the trend despite having high volume behind it.

 

As bars 19 and 20 shared the same high, I called bar 20 the FTT for the purpose of drawing trend lines.

 

FTT of the following down traverse was more difficult for me. Bar 27 was a VE and first bar of a lateral, so I was anticipating a return to dominance before picking an eligible FTT bar. Bar 32 gave me that, but with price action not ending the lateral it was a few bars later before I decided to call it an FTT. Should have paid more attention to the trend lines. Price gave some hints when it got near the RTL, then turned and punched through it.

 

Similar situation with the next FTT, though I was better prepared for it.

[cnms2 10]

Hi,

 

Looking to hear form people who trade ftt to pt2. I have attached an example from the STOXX50 today. The ftt to to pt2 was 11 ticks, the pt2 to pt 3 gave back 7 ticks?

 

What should I be looking at?

Are you asking if it is possible to anticipate at pt2 how steep will be the slope of the p2 to pt3 retrace? If the retrace gets back inside the old container (up, the gray RTL) it will be steeper, and the new non-dominant volume (black in this example) may occasionally exceed the new dominant volume (red). I also added a few annotations on your chart snippet, how I see it.

[cnms2 10]

2/22 chart and debrief for your reading pleasure

 

I dislike that I am lacking in tape-level volume annotations, but with the clear dominance changes in volume, I felt these had to be traverses. Volume below that fractal level was usually not clear to me.

 

Due to time zones, I will refer to bars by bar number.

 

Of note: bar 17 may be discounted as a possible FTT because bar 18 closed inside the range of bar 17. I did not think this was meaningful on this resolution level, but I read a bar-by-bar recently where Spydertrader discounted a bar as a possible FTT because the close of the next bar did not break that bar's boundaries. I'll watch for this from now on and see how it holds up. We may have a little different ways of annotating.

 

Bar 19 was a volume peak, followed by a bar on somewhat less volume but with drastically less volatility. I've learned to watch for this as an indicator of an FTT. Price is failing to go further into the trend despite having high volume behind it.

 

As bars 19 and 20 shared the same high, I called bar 20 the FTT for the purpose of drawing trend lines.

 

FTT of the following down traverse was more difficult for me. Bar 27 was a VE and first bar of a lateral, so I was anticipating a return to dominance before picking an eligible FTT bar. Bar 32 gave me that, but with price action not ending the lateral it was a few bars later before I decided to call it an FTT. Should have paid more attention to the trend lines. Price gave some hints when it got near the RTL, then turned and punched through it.

 

Similar situation with the next FTT, though I was better prepared for it.

I'd extend the first lateral to the 8:35 bar, and I'd draw the R2R as attached. If I didn't annotate that lateral, I'd tighten the RTL to the 7:05 bar (pt3) and consider 7:20 as ftt of the up container.

[FilterTip 10]

Hi.

 

If it might help.

Re: the area cnms2 commented on,

I had the the same containers.

So now I know I was correct..

(all be it that I might be in a different part of a larger volume cycle)

Good to see you still helping here cnms2

 

Kind regards.

Edited February 23, 2012 by FilterTip

[amisme 10]

Thanks to both of you, this gives me a lot of insight.

 

I'm at a place right now where I feel like a thing is right, but I cannot come up with an explanation for why it would be that way. So I annotate something else that fits what I can justify, and it works fairly well, but I keep running into problems.

 

This is the third lateral for me in the last few days that didn't follow the ten cases as outlined at the beginning of the thread. One I annotated because it felt like a lateral even though bar 2 was one tic outside bar 1, two others I ended and was later told I could have extended. It makes sense, in a way, but I cannot come up with a justification for doing so that I can test for consistency.

 

Is there something about extending laterals that I am missing?

[padrotshik 10]

 

 

 

FTT of the following down traverse was more difficult for me. Bar 27 was a VE and first bar of a lateral, so I was anticipating a return to dominance before picking an eligible FTT bar.

 

Remember: One of the SOCs is when price returns into lateral.

[FilterTip 10]

Two questions on the attached chart, if anyone is able to assist ?

[amisme 10]

I was about to post that I didn't see b2b on the appropriate volume fractal, but I think I just found it.

 

I'm not sure about the FTT thing either, though.

[amisme 10]

2/23 lines on a chart

 

Also including some of yesterday to show how much clearer volume was after straightening myself out. Price pane looks like a nightmare because I don't have a cleaner way to do carryover, but you can see that volume annotations are much improved over what I initially posted.

 

Today, my volume annotations show point 3 of up traverse on 10:45 bar, while price is drawn using 12:10 bar as point 3. Container-wise I believe volume shows the correct sequence of events, price is simply drawn that way because of how the slopes of the containers turned out. If I have made an error though, I think it would be somewhere in this lateral. Laterals are definitely a weak point for me.

 

I've reasoned that the lateral logic I have been lacking is that price can return to the lateral after two closes outside of it, and that's a signal to extend the lateral.

 

Thanks to FilterTip's chart and getting my traverses straightened out, I now have channel level containers. Today's early morning low broke yesterday's FTT bookmark, so the down channel was fanned slightly and the trend lines extended. As of the time of this writing, today's up traverse has broken the point 1 bookmark of the down channel by 1 tick, which tells me that we must be building a new up channel. Let's see how long I can keep my containers straight.

[FilterTip 10]

2/23 lines on a chart

 

Also including some of yesterday to show how much clearer volume was after straightening myself out. Price pane looks like a nightmare because I don't have a cleaner way to do carryover, but you can see that volume annotations are much improved over what I initially posted.

 

Today, my volume annotations show point 3 of up traverse on 10:45 bar, while price is drawn using 12:10 bar as point 3. Container-wise I believe volume shows the correct sequence of events, price is simply drawn that way because of how the slopes of the containers turned out. If I have made an error though, I think it would be somewhere in this lateral. Laterals are definitely a weak point for me.

 

I've reasoned that the lateral logic I have been lacking is that price can return to the lateral after two closes outside of it, and that's a signal to extend the lateral.

Thanks to FilterTip's chart and getting my traverses straightened out, I now have channel level containers. Today's early morning low broke yesterday's FTT bookmark, so the down channel was fanned slightly and the trend lines extended. As of the time of this writing, today's up traverse has broken the point 1 bookmark of the down channel by 1 tick, which tells me that we must be building a new up channel. Let's see how long I can keep my containers straight.

 

I agree that the P3 got dragged over.

I don't recall/think there is any definative rule as to how that's done.

User choice iow, fan from the P1 or previous P3.

 

The 12.25 to 12.35 bars I'm still not sure of.

ie: How can they be a return to black dominance to confirm the P3 of that medium black container. ?

Maybe they weren't and that black dominance only arrived at 15.10-15.15.

(charts are EST time).

I think if, so that that would imply this whole day is just a P1 to P2 tape (container),

but seems a bit wide..

 

Also of note was that 14.40 bar that poked out the top of that lateral.

I ketp that as non-dominant even though it meant the P3 would be higher than the P1

of that non-dom thin red container.

Maybe it was the P3 with P1 at 12.45.

 

Sometimes it's not about fitting things into a box.

 

We're supposed to get dom and non-dom on both volume and price.

For me, I use a degree of discretion as to which (if not both) to decide with.

 

In view of the context of that thicker black container,

imo, it didn't really matter.

ie: the darn thing was going to go up..lol..

 

Re: the bold text on your post.

My understanding is that two closes outside a lateral,

is one way that ends lateral.

Which is contrary to what you've said but hope it helps.

 

As for larger channels.

I've been annotating them based on what faster contianers I have.

As you can see, I was incorrect on those thick black /magenta trend lines.

on the chart in post # 3363.

 

I messed up somewhere, or maybe that 14.30 poke out the red RTL was tha Magenta P3.

Or maybe the faster volume annotations that built them were wrong thickness and should have been thicker.

 

Basically i was still expecting a magent P3 and we'd already had it.

 

I'm frustrated with that, and have been for a long time, only because I've been a long time

seeking a level of understanding of this method on all levels.

But opperationally, I let it go.

i'm not trading that fractal. (but I like to know..don't you know.)

If i get to a P1 blowing out where it ought not to according to my annotations

I just re-synch, asap to what and where dominance is.

 

Not withstanding that I/we start from the fastest container, so I've been trading

those all the way up to the point that that larger container P1 doesn't fit.

 

Still don't know where that FTT was,

and something I have never found a solution to is the VE thingy as asked on chart posr# 3366.

 

Hope that makes some sense...

cheers

Edited February 23, 2012 by FilterTip

[vienna 10]

Still don't know where that FTT was,

and something I have never found a solution to is the VE thingy as asked on chart posr# 3366.

 

Hope that makes some sense...

cheers

 

I missed the FTT too in realtime. The ES closed VE "in the Zone" not only on one but on 2 fractals, so I was also waiting for the M1-M2. Instead it did an LTL touch , albeit at a carryover support...pity to miss it, since that was the move to be in......when I debriefed, I saw that there was an FTT in the YM (a few YM bars later, don't have access to charts right now)... keep the charts coming, these are great!

 

best,

Vienna

[FilterTip 10]

I missed the FTT too in realtime. The ES closed VE "in the Zone" not only on one but on 2 fractals, so I was also waiting for the M1-M2. Instead it did an LTL touch , albeit at a carryover support...pity to miss it, since that was the move to be in......when I debriefed, I saw that there was an FTT in the YM (a few YM bars later, don't have access to charts right now)... keep the charts coming, these are great!

 

best,

Vienna

 

Look forward to seeing your chart.

Perhaps my carry over was incorrect.

 

That aside, here is a 15 minute.

It's as though the (my) largest containers (Magenta) RTL and next level down (light pink) RTL are one of the same.

 

Where is the room for the non-dom leg of that larger level ?

ie the only place for P2 (Aqua) to be outside the Light Pink RTL is the high of the 14.30 bar.

 

Ok lets go with that.

 

(as an aside:

I was short about there (on 5 min) seeing it as the last leg of the Light Pink container,

still going to Magenta P2 in other words, which is why I was still expecting a non dom container to Magenta P3.)

 

Moving along to today, I think even on 15min chart, I can see that we are still

on our way to the larger (Dodger blue) P2, which is the thought I had on the 5 min (last post i made) about perhaps today all being a P1 to P2 (tape) move.

 

We shall see what tomorrow brings...

"tomorrow, tomorrow...la la la..."

 

Cheers

Edited February 24, 2012 by FilterTip

[FilterTip 10]

Here is same 15 min chart (entitled Chart 2)

 

There is another way to annotate the first container (Magenta P1 to Magenta P2).

Which makes more sense of that Aqua non-dom to Magenta P3.

 

Trouble I have is why did we go around again from 14.30 yesterday to this morning,

other than an FBO of the Magenta RTL.

 

Which is why I was seeing things long (on 5min) where I've put the white P1.

Edited February 24, 2012 by FilterTip

[Ezzy 10]

Thanks to both of you, this gives me a lot of insight.

 

I'm at a place right now where I feel like a thing is right, but I cannot come up with an explanation for why it would be that way. So I annotate something else that fits what I can justify, and it works fairly well, but I keep running into problems.

 

This is the third lateral for me in the last few days that didn't follow the ten cases as outlined at the beginning of the thread. One I annotated because it felt like a lateral even though bar 2 was one tic outside bar 1, two others I ended and was later told I could have extended. It makes sense, in a way, but I cannot come up with a justification for doing so that I can test for consistency.

 

Is there something about extending laterals that I am missing?

 

 

Typically you have a significant volume drop off in a lateral. Almost like the market is taking a break, the sequences on that fractal sort of stop working. Everything within is sub fractal.

 

Start here, good stuff: http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/6320-price-volume-relationship-39.html#post90682

 

So you could ask if your sequences for that fractal are still continuing? If they are maybe you don't need the lateral. In your example you could extend the lateral, or you could cut it short. You might find other things later, besides 2 closes outside (unless the 2 closes are a formation) that terminate laterals. Or circumstances like the post referenced above where you don't annotate a lateral. Don't be too rigid, try breaking a few rules - see if it helps.

 

Regards,

 

EZ

[FilterTip 10]

This is my current view atm.

 

Presently long.

 

Where is the inc black vol to return to dom out of that 15:30

lateral ?

Do we need it ?

 

Just thinking out load here.

 

Update.

covered the longs at 1365.75 and 1366.00

on basis of SOC bar (HH and > close on dec vol).

 

Presently Flat

 

Update 2

Presently short @ 1364.75

Lets see if this retrace turns into a reversal.

Things got a bit light at the top there at 1366

 

Update 3

Moves down on inc vol, but have an FBO of the Black RTL.

My finger was hovering to close through that 10:30 bar..

Where was the in red vol..?

But as we then got dec black vol I held short.

 

Update 4.

Got tricky through those last 3 bars...

still holding short.

Where's inc red vol..I'm gonna wanna have somma soona..

Edited February 24, 2012 by FilterTip

[FilterTip 10]

Update 5

covered shorts for 2 tick loss @ 1365.25.

 

I liked the 10:55 bar..I really liked it.

But then, well we can see the move up.

 

OK, lets go with that.

Perhaps that down move from 1366 was a non dom leg

in something bigger.

 

I've fanned the largest Black RTL and adjusted my Guassians.

 

presently long @1365.50.

 

(hope my ramblings aren't a bore or intrusion)

 

Update 6

Price has stopped at my entry and reversing on me.

Nice eh..!

 

So I'm thinking, that down red thing I was short through may be correct

and we've only moved up to it's P3.

Maybe that red thing is done as this move up to a possible P3 down is

within 3 ticks of the high of the day.

Maybe I'm sitting on a beach some where...

 

Only 2 of the above are a possibility at the moment.

 

So I'm trying to work out where overall dominance is.

But as confucious didn't say..

"squirrel that climbs ladies leg won't find nuts.."

 

Still holding long,

In for a pennie, in for $15 triliion as they say.

Edited February 24, 2012 by FilterTip