The Price / Volume Relationship

[vienna 10]

And here is a chart (Jan 04)..."rolling market" describes a market mode which causes fanning/ recycling of Pt 3's (term courtesy of patrader).

 

HTH, Vienna

[amisme 10]

Looks like you got Trade Navigator playing nice. I had a problem similar to what you mentioned in the other thread when I gave it a trial run - spent more time trying to select and move lines than anything else, even at 1x speed. Was that something they changed, or did you just learn to work with it?

 

Sorry I don't have anything to contribute re: laterals at this time. I've got a ways to go yet before I am at that level.

[vienna 10]

Looks like you got Trade Navigator playing nice. I had a problem similar to what you mentioned in the other thread when I gave it a trial run - spent more time trying to select and move lines than anything else, even at 1x speed. Was that something they changed, or did you just learn to work with it?

 

Actually, I love it now (with the exception of the higher cost)...gave it another shot when I saw that JH keeps recommending it...i just got used to the fact that the lines don't have handles, does not bother me at all anymore...in any case- I find it easier now to clone and cut lines than with other programs. The best channel tool I have seen was Nkhoi's or Stepan's for Ninja, but I love the degapping of TN and the fact that you can set lines to appear in all timeframes....you can draw TL's on a 60 min and it will show up on your 5 min. Am lobbying to get them to move past lines together with the chart, that would be awesome..

 

hth,

Vienna

[203NG 10]

in order not to clog up the thread...

 

no danger of that !

[cnms2 10]

Ok I'll make a revival attempt. ... TIA, Vienna

It seems you did really good work chasing the elusive "lateral exit" rule, and although you didn't solve it at your satisfaction I'm sure you didn't spent all that time in vain.

 

It is definitely possible to correctly annotate without knowing in advance the direction of a lateral formation exit, and even completely ignoring all laterals.

 

As with most signals and key words used with this method to describe the market, it's easy to cross the boundaries of anticipation into prediction, which obviously goes against the spirit of the method.

 

Even if you can't "predict" the direction the price will exit a lateral, this shouldn't alter in any way the order you expect the events to unfold: 1-2-3-ftt, as the volume and price define them.

 

It seems that occasionally laterals end their scope before the price closes consecutively twice outside their boundaries, and continuing to look at them as lateral formations beyond that point can be misleading.

 

Obviously, all these are my interpretations of the method under discussion here, and shouldn't be interpreted more than such.

[xioxxio 10]

I also moved over to Trade Navigator. I second that, it is an amazing piece of software.

[Boux 10]

I have struggled to comprehend any consistent interpretation of laterals in general but do think they are significant pieces of the puzzle. I certainly agree with the note in the above chart that....non-dom. lat's may not "complete" as do most Dom ones.

Also of late I have been trying to sort out the effect of Pace Acceleration on lat formation. I see a definite cause and effect in those instances when I correctly identify PA.

Can anyone point me to discussions that might help regarding these accelerations??

[vienna 10]

..... I certainly agree with the note in the above chart that....non-dom. lat's may not "complete" as do most Dom ones.

 

I am not saying this in any way to be critical!,,,,,but it points out a significant weakness of any forum context: words can be misunderstood and filtered.

 

The blue note on my chart "nondoms do not complete" did not refer to laterals, but to the fact that-in "rolling" marlets (markets that keep pushing out the RTL, often on decreasing volume), nondom legs often do not complete. In fact, this is a way to recognize that you have entered a a "rolling" environment... why is it important to recognize this context? Because your shorts become countertrend trades, the market keeps breaking the RTL but then going up... you see the breakout, wait for the pt 3, and the trade fails....etc....

 

hth,

 

Vienna

[stepan7 10]

I took it easier.

 

Stepan

 

P.S. "Listen..." by Spydertrader )

 

And here is a chart (Jan 04)..."rolling market" describes a market mode which causes fanning/ recycling of Pt 3's (term courtesy of patrader).

 

HTH, Vienna

Edited January 10, 2012 by stepan7

[Boux 10]

I am not saying this in any way to be critical!,,,,,but it points out a significant weakness of any forum context: words can be misunderstood and filtered.

 

The blue note on my chart "nondoms do not complete" did not refer to laterals, but to the fact that-in "rolling" marlets (markets that keep pushing out the RTL, often on decreasing volume), nondom legs often do not complete. In fact, this is a way to recognize that you have entered a a "rolling" environment... why is it important to recognize this context? Because your shorts become countertrend trades, the market keeps breaking the RTL but then going up... you see the breakout, wait for the pt 3, and the trade fails....etc....

 

hth,

 

Vienna

 

My mistake-------suppose I was projecting my own opinion---I often see the BO of lat's in a direction I did not anticipate (completion) and thought you were seeing a similar thing.

I appreciate your contributions in all of this.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Boux

[vienna 10]

I took it easier.

 

Stepan

 

Ha good point...that was a lifetime ago, but old habits are stubborn, so perhaps you are right...

 

Get the 10 min chart...but why is your point 3 not where indicated on the attached chart (yellow)?

 

Best,

 

Vienna

[zdo 20]

I am not saying this in any way to be critical!,,,,,but it points out a significant weakness of any forum context: words can be misunderstood and filtered.

 

The blue note on my chart "nondoms do not complete" did not refer to laterals, but to the fact that-in "rolling" marlets (markets that keep pushing out the RTL, often on decreasing volume), nondom legs often do not complete. In fact, this is a way to recognize that you have entered a a "rolling" environment... why is it important to recognize this context? Because your shorts become countertrend trades, the market keeps breaking the RTL but then going up... you see the breakout, wait for the pt 3, and the trade fails....etc....

 

hth,

 

Vienna

 

Vienna

 

Does this knock any holes in the JH’s original (volume and container) tenets?

If not, how not?

 

Many thanks..

(and also thank you very much for … yesterday)

 

zdo

[stepan7 10]

I took it easier.

 

Stepan

 

Ha good point...that was a lifetime ago, but old habits are stubborn, so perhaps you are right...

 

Get the 10 min chart...but why is your point 3 not where indicated on the attached chart (yellow)?

 

Best,

 

Vienna

 

You are correct - that was true p3 in real time.

 

As long as you have HH you have to fan original channel.

 

St

Edited January 10, 2012 by stepan7

[vienna 10]

Vienna

 

Does this knock any holes in the JH’s original (volume and container) tenets?

If not, how not?

 

zdo

 

My limited understanding is that if WMCN does not come, it means the opposite (what ivo called thinking upside down).

 

Meaning: If you think that the trend has changed (BO of the RTL), but then what you assume to be the New Dom does NOT complete, it means the trend has NOT changed, the new leg is still Nondom and the market has probably turned into a rolling/grinding up market, where countertrend trades will fail.

 

hth,

Vienna

[vienna 10]

 

You are correct - that was true p3 in real time.

 

As long as you have HH you have to fan original channel.

 

St

 

I have never fully understood why the revised point 3 of the old up channel would have to be in the cyan area ? Please see attached... why can't it be in the grey area??

 

best, Vienna

[cnms2 10]

Because you assumed you had an FTT, so the dominant direction is down. To have a new pt3 up you have to break the FTT bookmark.

[vienna 10]

Because you assumed you had an FTT, so the dominant direction is down. To have a new pt3 up you have to break the FTT bookmark.

 

Of course, the blue line. But the drawing says the revised pt 3 has to be above the bookmark...

[Corey 10]

 

I have never fully understood why the revised point 3 of the old up channel would have to be in the cyan area ? Please see attached... why can't it be in the grey area??

 

best, Vienna

he said time is after a new p1 and channel overlap has begun meaning a reversal channel is forming. When does this anticipation fail? it fails when price moves above the horizontal line (thus creates a revised p3)

[amisme 10]

I interpreted it as saying that price must reach the cyan region in order for you to have a new pt3 of the old container, not that the new pt3 had to occur in the cyan region.

[vienna 10]

I interpreted it as saying that ......

 

Yes I interpret it the same way...my point is that is not what it says

Is no big deal, the intent seems clear.

[stepan7 10]

One more time.

 

As long as you have new HH you have to fan original channel with new revised p3.

 

Cyan area, not cyan area, regardless

 

St

Edited January 10, 2012 by stepan7

[patrader 10]

Spydertrader commented on how he and jack would annotate fanning differently though either technique was fine to use.Spydertrader would use a "rolling" annotation style on his charts using previous pt 3's and/or troughs when fanning decelerated containers.Here is your 10m chart with the "rollin" container annotated with white trendlines.I have found this annotation style to be very helpful in markets that the pace decelerates but the trend continues.hth

[stepan7 10]

 

...either technique was fine...

 

 

as long as it helps extracting money from the market )

 

St.

[cnms2 10]

And this is another way.

[patrader 10]

Here's a few of spydertrader's posts on how he fans containers:"If I need to 'fan out' a channel (when price leaves the channel on decreasing volume) I usually fan from my last Point Three. Not only does the decreased slope of the new (fanned) channel visually represent a reduction in market pace, but using the Point Three vs. recycling the Old Point One normally results in fewer fans as time moves forward. Either way works. Choose whichever you feel best allows you to 'see' the market","When fanning out channels, Jack recycles his previous Point One. Because I look at a need to fan as a slowing down of market pace (and therefore, potentially providing an opportunity for the market to begin to roll over), I choose instead to recycle Point Three's into new Point One's. Doing so causes me to have to 'fan' less often, and allows me to 'see' the change in pace better. During the time frame you posted above, my original Point Three started waaaaay back. To me, recycling from that point, so far away, didn't make sense. Instead, I chose to recycle from an FBO that bounced off the RTL. In this fashion, I mirrored the use of a 'Point Three' - just further down the line. In other words, Any time I have Price return to the RTL, only to bounce directly off and move higher, I consider using that point as a new Point One, if need be - especially when the Points One and Three started so far back in the day from where I need the fan.","I 'recycle' my Point Three into a New Point One, rather than, use the Original Point One because I 'see' the market in terms of 'rolling through' various points instead of starting and stopping on those points of change. I annotate my channels in real time, and when Price breaks a RTL on decreasing Volume, we often have yet to see the end of the current trend. In other words, the channel needs changing because the trend did not change. When a particular channel continues on for quite some time, I may need to use the most recent 'trough' of Price (most likely a flaw, but could be an FBO point) for the New Point One - rather than go all the way back to the Point Three. This is the way I fan my channels as I feel it gives me the best view of the actual market. Others, who may view things differently might draw their fanned channels differently.","When the market 'rolls over' or 'rolls under' fanning from (recycling) the Point Three more accurately represents these changes. Jack refers to these changes as 'saucer shape' formations","The market tells us if we have correctly contained Price within our channels. One need look no further for confirmation on correct fanning than the market itself. Numerous examples exist each day showing how the channel has changed, but the trend did not. This occurs on every fractal, resolution and time frame","By fanning outward (channel deceleration), we show the intact trend (i.e. one which has not changed direction long or short), but we also contain the altered money velocity (we no longer profit as much per unit time as we once did). In other words, we haven't stopped making money, we just don't make it at the same rate as before","And 'fanned' channels always do fit into larger containers. Whether or not those larger containers assist the trader to either better 'see' the market, or enable the trader to bank more profits remains a matter of experience.

 

Choosing to recycle a Point Three into a New Point One, or to 'fan' using the original Point One remains a matter of personal preference. For me, I 'see' the market as 'rolling over' from Point to point, and as a result, recycling Point Three makes better sense to me. However, someone else, who 'sees' things from a slightly different perspective might find 'fanning' from the same Point One provides better clarity.

 

Again, two different paths which cause two different traders to arrive at the exact same place." hth