VSA Crock or Not 2

[rigel 10]

You keep deluding yourself.

 

Walmart and bananas, you reckon that is logic, it is a supermarket selling zillion items.

Is bananas at the heart of their business?))

 

What is the central theme of TG? What is at the heart of the business?

What is the stuff they sell based on?

Where did the TG company originate? could it be a VSA company in U.K run by TW:))))

Who is running/promoting/appearing at most seminars etc with GH nowadays?

 

By your own statement regarding GH as a marketeer, you are confirming and admitting that VSA is being marketed through Tradeguider. Remove VSA, what is left? will anybody buy that package or go to seminars?

 

Forget about Wikipedia definitions of fallacy etc, use your own intellect and everyday experience of cause and effect.

[sevensa 10]

You keep deluding yourself.

 

Walmart and bananas, you reckon that is logic, it is a supermarket selling zillion items.

Is bananas at the heart of their business?))

 

What is the central theme of TG? What is at the heart of the business?

What is the stuff they sell based on?

Where did the TG company originate? could it be a VSA company in U.K run by TW:))))

Who is running/promoting/appearing at most seminars etc with GH nowadays?

 

Forget about Wikipedia definitions of fallacy etc, use your own intellect and everyday experience of cause and effect.

 

 

Just let it go. The points for and against TG was made over and over very clearly. Please let this thread stay on track for the people who are interested in it. If you are against VSA and/or TG then simply don't read the thread and focus on things which do interest you.

 

If you think VSA/TG is misleading people, instead of telling everyone how bad it is, open a new thread to show and educate people about how they should be trading.

[DbPhoenix 42]

I seem to remember you having an interest a long time back even taking time to email them with suggestions and what not. I remember you being dissatisfied with the replies and concluding it was an opportunity missed.

 

Hardly. It was an exchange years ago with a TG salesman on a message board who had no idea what he was selling or what supply and demand were all about. I pointed out that Wyckoff can't be computerized. Anyone who thinks it can doesn't understand what Wyckoff is all about.

 

The one thing I would perhaps disagree with is about the mention of TG, it is pretty minimal in these threads

 

If you're serious, do a search. Look for TradeGuider, TG, Gavin, GH, Krueger, TK, software, seminar, bootcamp, Master the Markets, and so forth. As I suggested earlier, TradeGuider ought either to become a sponsor of TL or any mention of it ought to be deleted, just like the links to any other commercial site. Those who are interested in plain ol' VSA, uncorrupted and unadulterated, have plenty to read and study.

[rigel 10]

Just let it go. The points for and against TG was made over and over very clearly. Please let this thread stay on track for the people who are interested in it. If you are against VSA and/or TG then simply don't read the thread and focus on things which do interest you.

 

If you think VSA/TG is misleading people, instead of telling everyone how bad it is, open a new thread to show and educate people about how they should be trading.

 

As Monad pointed out, if yu go back to through the posts, it was Manby who came in asking for evidence etc.

There is no question of hating or disliking VSA/TG, or telling people what they should or should not follow, it is their money and as has been pointed out in the final analysis their choice.

 

Here an effort is being made to state facts regarding VSA as Manby asked, Make an effort to understand that aspect with clarity without getting entangled in emotions, we are not talking about bananas;)

[rigel 10]

How many times it has to be pointed out there is nothing like plain old VSA having had an existence as an independent entity detached from TW, GH, TG, Manby and the rest,

 

What do you think these guys are using to promote their seminars, software, bootcamp etc.

[DbPhoenix 42]

BTW it was Manby who came in to question a posting first, nobody set out to engage in lengthy discussion, Manby wanted statements of facts, well here they are.

 

FWIW, this didn't start with Manby but rather 60 posts ago (so much for the "minimal" influence of TG). Manby just added to the "thrust"

 

But I agree with sevensa. Just let it go. As long as the VSA Forum has the welcome mat out for TG, this will occur again and again, even though the fix is a simple one. (As for sevensa's suggestion to "open a new thread to show and educate people about how they should be trading", that's what the Pure VSA thread is about, at least in terms of VSA.)

Edited June 17, 2009 by DbPhoenix

[BlowFish 10]

Rigel what is your point? What am I deluding myself about? That this is the wrong thread for this discussion? Or maybe that TG and VSA are completely interlinked? Thats Odd I 'learnt' VSA before Tradeguider existed without sight of any software and when Gavin Holmes was probably still a double glazing salesman (or maybe unborn who knows). Just because you can not separate VSA Tradeguider and Whycoff in your mind does not mean that they are inseparable. Calling me delusional is an ad hominen form of reasoning it does not advance your argument. (It's also laughable as i have already said I largely agree with the point, a conclusion can still be true despite the argument being fallacious). TG are pretty much a waste of space imo but that is just that....an opinion.

 

I agree remove VSA and TG could not exist in its current form. This however does not in any way imply that VSA can not exist without tradeguider. There is no causality in that direction. If TG go bust tomorrow VSA Whyckoff and supply and demand will continue to 'exist' as phenomena. What I am arguing against is sloppy thinking, imprecise reasoning and emotionally made points rather than more objective rational arguments. I do actually agree with the sentiment but it is just that ...sentiment.

[BlowFish 10]

Just let it go. The points for and against TG was made over and over very clearly. Please let this thread stay on track for the people who are interested in it. If you are against VSA and/or TG then simply don't read the thread and focus on things which do interest you.

 

If you think VSA/TG is misleading people, instead of telling everyone how bad it is, open a new thread to show and educate people about how they should be trading.

 

Yeah mea culpa. Hope you guys know I pretty much agree about TG. Now I have worn myself out with all this arguing, time for a nap I think or maybe a beer. I hope no one took offence that was not my intention:)

[Eiger 10]

A thread to argue about the topic and to keep the other VSA thread clear for those interested in the method.

[DbPhoenix 42]

A thread to argue about the topic and to keep the other VSA thread clear for those interested in the method.

 

Not likely to be of any more use than the other one. The issue is not the legitimacy of VSA, which is a perfectly reasonable approach. The issue is the connection with TradeGuider. And the problems relating to that will not just go away.

 

If you want to move forward rather than sideways, why not begin a thread entitled "TradeGuider Crock or Not" and move all posts that are TG related to that thread? That would at least help keep the focus of the forum where it should be, on VSA.

[bathrobe 10]

I use VSA with S/R levels (not TradeGuiders) and I have to say it works out pretty well. I trade index futures. VSA is not my only strategy but when it has been working out well for me.

[wunderlich 10]

I think I can follow the discussion about the relationship between VSA and TG. I followed some TG live webinars by GH and the problems/misleadings I see are:

 

 

 

- Chart/Tape reading "bar by bar" - as Seb does all the time, every bar has a distinct meaning!? (not looking at the big picture)

 

- Time frame for analysis 1 minute bars for trading (again not seeing the broader picture behind)

 

- Switching the time frame all the time for finding TG Signals (GH)

 

- Wyckoff principles at work, but no TG signal is indicating them ("Wyckoff is not to computerise" DB)

 

- TG Signals are laging 1 bar, because confirmation is needed, but TG signal is placed on the bar before

 

 

 

I have learned a lot of from TG, but I would hear from others, where they see problems of the TG use / interpretaion of the Wyckoff method.

[monad 10]

Think if you go over the posts here and in previous VSA threads, all the differences have already been thrashed out.

 

Unfortunately the view still persists that there is a separate independent methodology called VSA, whereas infact I have already pointed out that Volume being Effort and Price move ie. range/spread being the result, effectively price action is analysis of effort v/s result, which is already explained by Wyckoff but a fancy name was invented for that: Volume Spread Analysis,

 

"Undeclared secrets..........." basically explain or elaborate on Wyckoff principles, it could just have been entitled "Further Elaboration of Wyckoff Principles" but instead a new term was coined up VSA, for marketing purpose and thus we have ended up with the Tradeguider Circus:)))

 

Then ofcoure there is the constant harping on about dumb/smart money and as you say analysis of every tiny little bar attached with meaning, and ofcourse that constant shuffling between different timeframe charts during a seminar to look for the ideal signal:))) worse are the generals statements regarding markets not liking upbars on high vol, or down bars on high vols, etc, nonsense. just depends where the action takes place, if there is a supply to the left for example, if the traders are looking for higher prices, this supply will be mopped up and activity will rise i.e vol will increase, simple:)), where it matters if it is climactic at certain significant support/resistance levels. But ofcourse all this will not be pointed out by TG crowd, otherwise who is going to buy all their stuff:))) They have to propagate the myth of VSA- something unique, a 3rd dimension of looking at the market.

 

Anyway enough of this nonsense, Manby started it , let him come and explain, very doubtful though:))

[BlowFish 10]

I think this thread should be called Tradeguider, Value Added or Snake Oil Salesman?

 

Actually it's debatable whether they are 'Wyckoff principles' It could be argued that they where Livermores principles. Incidentally has anyone read "Jesse Livermore's methods of trading in stocks by Richard Demille Wyckoff"?

[thecloser 10]

I new to the whole VSA or Wykoff method. What website would you all recommend me go to really learn this

Thank you

TC

[BlowFish 10]

You could do worse than start here.

[rigel 10]

It ought to be clear from this thread

 

1. VSA is derived from Wyckoff.

2. So the obvious is to study Wyckoff first, and as has been pointed there is whole load of free info. on the Wyckoff forum

3. Then try out some of the VSA stuff.

 

4. Then come to your own conclusions for your trading career.

[BlowFish 10]

Using that argument the best bet would be to study Livermore (though much less written about him, you need to be a bit of a detective) .

 

Seriously though Rigels advice makes some sense. I

[Bohunck 10]

I agree. Livermore should be required reading (especially for newbies) regardless of which method is pursued. There are many subtle insights that are good general knowledge regarding brokers and trading psychology.

[rigel 10]

At the end of the day it does not matter, as long as you have found a method which is consistently profitable for you.))

[samhollander 10]

I have spent the last 6 months working with Eiger on VSA chart reading[no TRADEGUIDER SOFTWARE] and can honestly state that once proficent at reading the BARS/ VOLUME the system works 95% of the time.

[crabbydog 10]

 

Infact check with Martin Cole and Dr. Dhallu who have both used the same programmer:

Martin Cole a Successful Forex Trader Tells it Like it Really is

FIRST - Day Trading Software

Infact Dhallu's charting software had the exact format of VSA, if you are not convinced, Tom should enlightened you on this.

 

[/color][/b])))

 

Who is / are the programmer?

[HAL9000 10]

Infact check with Martin Cole and Dr. Dhallu who have both used the same programmer:

Martin Cole a Successful Forex Trader Tells it Like it Really is

 

FIRST - Day Trading Software

 

Infact Dhallu's charting software had the exact format of VSA, if you are not convinced, Tom should enlightened you on this.

 

 

Well, first ... seems to be ... :helloooo:

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway,

 

Hal

Edited September 20, 2009 by HAL9000

[crabbydog 10]

I have spent the last 6 months working with Eiger on VSA chart reading[no TRADEGUIDER SOFTWARE] and can honestly state that once proficent at reading the BARS/ VOLUME the system works 95% of the time.

 

Well on that basis you will soon be a millionaire

[samhollander 10]

Yes sir, I,m on my way:)