VSA Crock or Not 2

[Seb Manby 11]

Tasuki,

 

.

( with the help of the once booted out Sebastian now branded as the world's only Chart Reading Machine(hindsight ofcourse) .ie. to fool the masses into thinking they have something unique to offer whereas all that is required is to study the original wyckoff together with the original Tom Williams "Undeclared secrets............" period......

 

Hi Tasuki,

 

A very intresting post I see that you have made. Well it is interesting that you think I can only read the market in hindsight, there are many people at the boot camp that would not agree with you, Eiger was there imputing the trades live, not me, and I called the market up from the start, and then all the way down after 12.00 PM. I even had to explain again for the video. Unless you have concrete proof that I can only read charts in hindsight, I would like to suggest to you that you refrain from this misleading banter.

 

http://www.tradeguider.com/emailshot/bootcamp_2009/vsa_course/index_uk.htm

 

Also, I have been aproached by a Hedge Fund Manager who wishes to engage me as an analyst, this will happen in September, so reading a chart in hindsight is of little value to a professional trader, and this will be the most valuable insight as to how a market is manipulated I can imagine.

 

Regards Sebastian

Edited June 13, 2009 by Seb Manby

[rigel 10]

Think what is important here is consistency. I have been in countless live seminars and watched countless vidoes (also those of Gavin etc on VSA, you tube), the presenters normally gloat over those trades which were called right, but ignore those which did not pan out with justfication with lots of other hindsight factors.

Unfortunately in a Seminar ambience, wannabie traders are all caught with that intense desire to get hold of that magic setup or indicator which will lead to fortune and subconsciously desiring that the call made by the presenter would pan out, and when it does, a general euphoria sets in. However in the privacy of their home and under realtime market conditions it all becomes a different ball game, speaking from solid experience:))))

 

Similarly on You Tube, there are selective videos of trades(besides VSA) which pan out. There is hardly ever mention of the probability factor which is at the heart of Wyckoff's teaching.

 

BTW have a thorough understanding of Wyckoff's original course so no B.S here.

 

From what I know there is nothing magical about VSA or anyother price/volume readings out there, it is all laid out with great clarity by Wyckoff, all that is required is effort and willingness to study independently instead of relying on seminars, clubs, and expensive software.(i.e fingerholding as Linda Raschke puts it) and IMO there is enough on the Wyckoff forum on this website to get anybody off the ground and on the right path.

 

Even on major bull and bear turns, you observe that the major news channels would wheel out some guru who predicted that, what the public is not aware is that the same guru has been predicting a bear phase in a long bull run and another guru has been predicting a bull turn in a long bear phase., when they get it right, then they get into limelight and suck in followers for a while.

 

IMHO

Edited June 14, 2009 by rigel

[Tasuki 10]

Hi Tasuki,

 

A very intresting post I see that you have made. Well it is interesting that you think I can only read the market in hindsight,

 

Sebastian,

My sincere apologies if I did indeed say that, but you do realize that this quote you quoted was from monad, not me, right? I don't THINK I said that. It doesn't sound like me. Maybe we should continue this conversation by PM, but I wanted to publicly apologize if indeed I was daft enough to say something like that, but it really doesn't sound like the sort of thing I'd say, or even think. I'm curious as a cat where that quote by monad came from.

Sincerely,

Tasuki

[monad 10]

Hi Tasuki,

 

A very intresting post I see that you have made. Well it is interesting that you think I can only read the market in hindsight, there are many people at the boot camp that would not agree with you, Eiger was there imputing the trades live, not me, and I called the market up from the start, and then all the way down after 12.00 PM. I even had to explain again for the video. Unless you have concrete proof that I can only read charts in hindsight, I would like to suggest to you that you refrain from this misleading banter.

 

http://www.tradeguider.com/emailshot/bootcamp_2009/vsa_course/index_uk.htm

 

Also, I have been aproached by a Hedge Fund Manager who wishes to engage me as an analyst, this will happen in September, so reading a chart in hindsight is of little value to a professional trader, and this will be the most valuable insight as to how a market is manipulated I can imagine.

 

Regards Sebastian

 

If all the Hedge Fund managers and their analysts were more savvy that rest of us, most of these funds would not be under water now, they would have seen the credit crunch coming, how many of them did?

 

I have watched the London Symposium DVDs, various setups on varying timeframes anything from 2min to 3min to 5min to 7min and so on. No consistency whatsoever as Rigel has pointed out.

 

I have seen exactly the same setup on that video link you posted that will not pan out, why because buying pressure materialised, then ofcourse you guys would have come out with justification, flicking back and forth to other time frame charts, adding trendclusters, channels from higher time frame charts etc, diamond stops, and all the other 250 supposedly highly mathematical indicators incorporated in Tradeguider, branded as the worlds only sophisticated program. When everything pans out, then blow the trumpet.

 

On that London Symposium DVD, the setup entries and stops were being determined with the subsequent bars in sight, "O, I would have not placed the stop here, but there," why, simply because the trade would have been stopped out, but that is what would have happened in realtime, there was no luxury of hindsight to let you know in advance where would be the ideal stop placement so that particular trade would not be stopped out.

 

As for the sequency of events of you being sidelined from VSA team when Todd was around, and then subsequent reentry into prominence, the world's first chart reading machine, well that is a fact.

I have known VSA before Gavin even heard of it. In U.K it did not receive much attention, until it was taken over to US rebranded as Tradeguider and marketed at 5 times the price:)))) No shortage of suckers out there

Edited June 15, 2009 by monad

[Seb Manby 11]

Well, I had no choice but to play along to gavin's tune at those seminars, I don't like standing up in front of an audience at all, i'd rather be behind the scenes. The seminars were done on a weekend, because it would have been almost impossible to get the nembers there, they did say they enjoyed it very much, I realise that you have to study in hindsight as I had to do. I would print off charts and study them intensely until the penny dropped.

 

A customer of TG coined the phrase, chart reading machine, I personally am not keen on it.

 

Sorry Taksuki, I got it wrong, the thread showed your name, not Monad. I can read the live edge consistently, and have done it many times, and I don't need to prove it.

 

Why do you hate TradeGuider so much? not everyone likes Gavin's style, I must admit, but he is a salesman, and that's what salesmen do(I think)

 

Regards Sebastian

[2trade 10]

Hi Monad my question is what is your point VSA or trading with order flow or as its called in the UK "Flow Trading" does work or does not work ? This would obviously include using

it with a trading plan ie (entry conditions)(exit conditions) (stand aside conditions) all known before entering a trade.

Thx 2trade

[humdesggg 10]

Sebastian

 

U admitted to using hindsight to analyse dead charts over the weekend. Why do u object to being reminded of that? U also seem to be impressed, like a schoolboy, with your nick name as 'chart reading machine'. TW calls u that on the VSAclub videos, so does your old friend Gavin. Now, I feel u should be held accountable for this nickname, and the only way we can put u to test, is to see u read the VSA setups in realtime. The other day Gavin failed miseably trying to trade forex on tokio open with tick volume data.

 

If u r a CRM, let us just put u to test, We can meet on skype, and see how good you are. Else u tell TW, Gavin and your would be fans to stop calling you CRM, since u success is solely based on hindsight.

[humdesggg 10]

Hi Monad my question is what is your point VSA or trading with order flow or as its called in the UK "Flow Trading" does work or does not work ? This would obviously include using

it with a trading plan ie (entry conditions)(exit conditions) (stand aside conditions) all known before entering a trade.

Thx 2trade

 

Nothing wrong with that, but the difference is nailing the setups in realtime VS hindsight analysis to fool seminar attendees. Whatever hindsight analysis should be provided free of charge. Plus u dont need a 3,000$ program to call VSA setups for u. U just need price and volume to get going. The issue here is to differentiate those making business based on past data with hindsight and those diehard price and volume data traders who dont need nicknames to impressed seminar attendees.

[Tasuki 10]

Please, folks, let's not let this thread degenerate into name-calling or Tradeguider-bashing. We've been down that road on the previous VSA threads, and I think we've pretty much covered the bases already.

 

What we should be doing, IMHO, is watching the market, which is giving us some classic signs of weakness. See attached.

[humdesggg 10]

Please, folks, let's not let this thread degenerate into name-calling or Tradeguider-bashing. We've been down that road on the previous VSA threads, and I think we've pretty much covered the bases already.

 

What we should be doing, IMHO, is watching the market, which is giving us some classic signs of weakness. See attached.

 

We have a lot of people following these thread, who are distinguised VSA traders in their right. I think generally we are ready to go the next step, and that is to have a live interaction during trading hours. That sort of tradingroom would be free, but based on number of rules i.e. the trader at least reading part VSA part I as foundation.

 

I have privately checked with few friends and it seems it is a practical idea. Moreover, given the multitude of datafeeds and charting software, a live room would be hugely beneficial.

 

Thanks Tasuki for reoirenting the room

[monad 10]

Well, I had no choice but to play along to gavin's tune at those seminars, I don't like standing up in front of an audience at all, i'd rather be behind the scenes.

 

Why do you hate TradeGuider so much? not everyone likes Gavin's style, I must admit, but he is a salesman, and that's what salesmen do(I think)

 

Regards Sebastian

 

There is no hatred involved here at all, what I dislike is the way this whole price/vol business is being pedalled to unsuspecting wannabe traders out there. Infact Tom himself is a quite a nice guy (first to admit, his book "Undeclared secrets... is excellent)

and frankly so were you (until you got up into this marketing ploy) and probably still are evident from the London DVD where you publicly express your differences with Gavin in no uncertain terms.))

 

Gavin is not only a Salesman, but remember now also an expert and professional VSA trader:)))

Does he need Tom or you now? Afterall Todd Krugger was used for a while to promote and bring the lagging VSA7 to US under the new glossed up title Tradeguider trumpetting the 250 or more highly mathematical formulas with flashy trend clusters, H stops, volume thermometer, VSA indicators, diamond stops (nothing but a simple 5ema). Ask Tom if he had super duper programmers to do that job on VSA.

Infact check with Martin Cole and Dr. Dhallu who have both used the same programmer:

Martin Cole a Successful Forex Trader Tells it Like it Really is

FIRST - Day Trading Software

Infact Dhallu's charting software had the exact format of VSA, if you are not convinced, Tom should enlightened you on this.

 

The simple fact is that VSA is derived entirely from Wyckoff

V- Volume- EFFORT

S- Price Spread - RESULT

Hence analysis of Effort v/s Result. period, This is at the heart of Wyckoff.

There is nothing in Wyckoff about market not liking Upbars or downbars on high or low vol.

and that harping on about professional money, is that in Wyckoff also.

You think it is necessary to have a $3000 charting software and countless seminars, DVDs, Advanced courses etc for that.

Basic Sierra chart will suffice at $20/month.

 

As Tom and you have learnt everything from Wyckoff why not point the wannabe traders to the original source, rather than sucking them into the Wonder Software, ongoing Seminars, Bootcamps etc(BTW wonderful marketing ploy: "we are not a software company, we are here to teach you how to fish" and all the rest of it)

all they need is to study 20times the 1930-31 analysis (freely available in wyckoff forum) to grasp the basic concepts of Price/volume analysis. without getting entangled in unnecessary jargon.

As Rigel has also stated, there is enough info. on the wyckoff forum here to put any trader on the right path, all that is required is willingness and motivation to put in independent effort rather than relying on Tradeguider Co. whose main aim is to fleece the public of as much money as they can in as quick a time as possible. by getting them hooked into the circle of devout VSA followers with ongoing seminars, VSA clubs, bootcamps, advanced courses, setups which have never been revealed before.

 

Ask this: is there any mention of Advanced and never before revealed setups in Wyckoff, check it out with Tom:)))

Edited June 17, 2009 by monad

[BlowFish 10]

I always find it helpful to separate Tradeguider the 'organisation that sells stuff' from VSA the 'methodology for judging buying and selling pressure'. I have a pretty clear opinion of the former that I have voiced here before, re stating it serves little purpose, as always buyer beware. As for the latter....well it's up to individuals to decide for themselves whether it works for them.

 

I would remind people that to judge the efficacy of a method you need to look at the method (though it is natural to be inquisitive about the practitioner). It is possible to learn VSA without having anything to do with TG.

 

Having said all that on numerous occasions Seb has posted to these threads analysis for the following days open based on the previous days close. They have been pretty decent imo.

[monad 10]

It is not a question of being right or wrong, that is all ego oriented, trading has nothing to do with that. Wyckoff emphasized anticipation with total flexibility, not predicting.

 

Take any maths based indicator, RSI, CCI, MaCD , Stoch divergence and you can find zillion setups on any timeframe which pan out and another zillion which do not pan out.

Probability simple. However I know traders who have constructed specific strategies/tactics/ and most importantly rules to trade with this on a single timeframe chart with outstanding success.

 

My point is simply this, if we all agree that VSA is nothing but a reflection of Wyckoff then why not just emphasize the fact that it is all about analysis of Effort and the Result thereof. ie. buying and selling pressure, and to understand any concept like spring, absorption , dead centre etc, refer to the original sources rather than getting mired into smart money, etc nonsense.

[BlowFish 10]

Where VSA has attempted to go 'beyond' Whycoff is in the quantification of 'effort' (V) and result (S). Or buying/selling pressure if you prefer.

 

Imho it is the attempt to (reasonably objectively) quantify some key W ideas that is the value of VSA. In reality of course there are no absolutes, however most people work better within a 'framework'. There is (or can be) a great deal of synergy with W (as you would expect) provided you don't get caught up in the dogma.

 

VSA does provide a reasonably consistent framework however when people like GH apply it inconsistantly that benefit is diluted. For example when something 'fails' (which lets face it happens) that is a powerful message, time to close or reverse. If you spend your time looking for an 'excuse' why it failed you can miss the key information the market is giving you.

 

I watched one of GH's recent promos and I thought he was much better....only goes to show how bad he was a year ago. There is still a tendency for him to look at other time frames in inappropriate ways, that's another story.

[monad 10]

Trying to isolate Tradeguider and VSA is a delusion, for Tradeguider is choke full of so called highly sophisticated VSA indicators.

GH, Manby, TW and the rest represent what, Tradeguider or VSA, what are they exactly promoting or trying to educate the public in?

They make claims of the 3rd way of looking at price action, a new dimension as GH announces, the poor sods attending these seminars are given the impression they are soon going to be in possession of the holy grail, ofcourse first and foremost is the $3000 software, followed by ongoing seminars, bootcamps, advanced courses, DVDs and the rest. Even after an outright purchase of the software you are locked into logging on their servers , it is not like buying Metastock etc. Talk to anybody who owns it and see how much hastle they have had to put up with all the glitches for such an exorbitantly priced charting pack.

 

If the intent was just to teach VSA ie. Effort v/s Result, to trade via gauging Buying and Selling pressure, then just direct these folks to where all this is already well documented and explained with great lucidity and from which all was borrowed in the first place. Where is the need to invent a fancy term Volume Spread Analysis? .

 

GH's main goal now is to make hay as quickly as possible whilst the sun shines. Introduce more speakers like H.Pruden etc to boost up the image, pure marketing.

A new generation of Tradeguider software is now in the pipeline, dangle the carrot, folks will be waiting impatiently for that, for with the new software they are under the impression they will be able to read the footprints of the dumb/smart money without any effort:)), the clever part is keep telling them "We are not a Software Company", and guess what Manby, TW are all playing their role in this process.

People are being sucked into this fathomless vortex oblivious of the fact that all the info. that require on trading with price/action (via volume) is freely and readily available.

 

Ofcourse at the end of the day it is the choice of the individual trader. Nobody is ramming this down their throat, the intention here is only to bring truth to the attention of those who are prepared to examine it with an open mind on a public forum and if this effort saves even a few wannabe traders their hard earned cash and ongoing frustration and struggle, then it is worth it.))

 

It is realised that all this is not going to make much difference at TG for there is no shortage of starry eyed suckers out there:)))

Edited June 17, 2009 by monad

[humdesggg 10]

Another hugely misleading fact of the TG camp is that you absolutely need 400+ indicators in their software to trade profitably. Even VSA7 has tons of indicators that r totally deviating from the effort/result parameters. What Gavin has done with VSA is what one forex system vendor did with pivots i,e. take an entirely innocent indicator like pivots, create confusion and resell it as THE system to trade forex.

 

Gavin has become a aggressive salesman, who even brings Sebastian onboard to look at dead charts at a weekend seminar, to pump out a few thousands $$$ from unsuspecting seminar attendees, rather than pump profits out of the market on profitable trades.

 

Thats the reason I strongly feel that all VSA enthusiasts should think of a liveroom, where we can bring VSA principles to live by confirming basic effort/result setups from multiple datafeed/charting software. This is what Anekdoten's fans did on elitetrader. We need to have a liveroom where we can put socalled CRM's to the test.

Edited June 17, 2009 by humdesggg
stats

[TheRumpledOne 14]

 

I have modified and fixed some existing VSA indicators to be more user friendly. And I have created a few of my own based on what I have learned about VSA so far.

 

All of these have been posted on the net for FREE.

 

Of course, you wouldn't use all of them at once. The most profitable one for me is the STOPPING VOLUME and the MultiMeter version of STOPPING VOLUME. It is a great reversal indicator.

[rigel 10]

You can learn more on climax, stopping vol. , bag holding concepts just by studying the pdf file analysis of 1930-31 by Wyckoff on the forum as has been already pointed out.

 

All the talk about VSA by Manby GH and others is mainly with promoting Tradeguider.

As per a close trading friend, Manby is on record here on a previous VSA thread coming into promote his London seminar with promises of live videos of his trades which will be presented over the weekend seminars, however they never ever materialised, get hold of the seminar DVDs to confirm this.

Then he came in promoting his visit to Chicago seminar with photograph of him posing outside some building on the chicago street. If this is not marketing , don't know what else is:)))) What has all this got to do with teaching people how to trade by understanding Effortv/s Result as has been pointed out in previous posts.

[humdesggg 10]

 

I have modified and fixed some existing VSA indicators to be more user friendly. And I have created a few of my own based on what I have learned about VSA so far.

 

All of these have been posted on the net for FREE.

 

Of course, you wouldn't use all of them at once. The most profitable one for me is the STOPPING VOLUME and the MultiMeter version of STOPPING VOLUME. It is a great reversal indicator.

 

The Great Rumpledone

 

Thanks for doing this mate. I hope u can upload them here. We could do with little bit of automation, especially on Ninjatrader. Anything free that empowers the VSA masses is welcome.

[humdesggg 10]

Sebastian appears on many of the VSAclub videos, and therefore, is part and parcel of the Tradeguider Team. His greatest claim to fame is being called chart reading machine by the great TW. He benefits bigtime from his association with the GH himself and his realtime VSA skills are seriously in doubt. TW himself brought out MTM to sell VSA. MTM, is a watered down version of untold secrets, and some evil ones tought that the way to quick riches, is to sell rebrand VSA7 and sell it t 3k. Any prolific trader with excellent risk control can make 3k a day. Why dont GH, TW and Manby, who profits from the big fees charged to seminar attendees to see dead chart analysis, live from their trading.

 

Lets not be naive folks. People, like TW, write books to sell software like VSA7. A little while back some prolific poster, using price and volume to post trades on forexfactory, was uncovered that his posts are thinly veiled advertisement for his commercial website calling signals.

 

Moderated Message:

Please refrain from rants and try to keep this thread on-topic. Rants regarding VSA should be posted here. - Soultrader

[BlowFish 10]

Trying to isolate Tradeguider and VSA is a delusion, for Tradeguider is choke full of so called highly sophisticated VSA indicators.

GH, Manby, TW and the rest represent what, Tradeguider or VSA, what are they exactly promoting or trying to educate the public in?

 

No that is a logical fallacy completely and utterly. Just because TG sell product based on VSA does not mean they are VSA. Of course they try to imply they are. Buy the Undeclared, Secrets (not from TG) read it, discuss it here, never have a single thing to do with Tradeguider. No need to isolate TG they need not exist in any discussion of VSA. Forget them. In fact that is the advice that is frequently given out on these threads. You actually strengthen their credibility by referring to TG and VSA as if they are the same thing. I bet Gavin loves you guys.

 

Look, I have been one of the biggest and most vocal critics of TG and 'professional trader and god emperor GH'. It just has no place on this thread unless you want to destroy something that has gone on for years and tens if not hundreds of thousands of posts. There is a seperate thread for this discussion. Take it there. Oh and the personal challenges should go via PM. personally I don't want to read it. I know what TG are and what there business model is. You would need to be a fool not too. Of course I guess I will still be labelled a TG fan despite actually sharing the recently expressed views.

 

I don't think I have seen a greater collection of logical fallacies in one place. Ad hominen attacks, whether Seb (or GH or TG or anyone else for that matter) can read the right hand edge is irrelevant to the credibility of VSA (of course it is crucial to the credibility of TG). Non Sequitor, denying the antecedent, and post hoc ergo propter hoc... The whole idea that W is based on supply and demand and that VSA is based W / supply demand (people change this to suit there argument). What is based on what and which order it came in has absolutely no place in an argument on the validity of VSA.

 

If you think VSA and TG are synonymous take it to the 'VSA crock or not' thread even if you don't take it there anyway. If you want to wail on TG start a thread. Here is not an appropriate place to discuss it. These posts should be moved it was made quite clear this sort of posting would not be tolerated the last time that this thread was invaded by the church of Whyckoff and the one true way zealots.

 

I find it amusing that before Seb did odd bits of work for TG he was quite revered here for the numerous videos and charts he posted and the real time insight he provided. They are still as good material on the subject that you will find. Gotta laugh really. Mind you I always thought it unwise doing a deal with the devil (TG) but understand why he did it.

 

In short I agree with you guys it's just that this is not the place to rant and rave. here is http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f222/vsa-crock-not-3736.html

[monad 10]

TW wrote "Undeclared secrets.................." based on his understanding of Wyckoff's principles and went on to incorporate them in a computerized program called VSA

 

Later when GH came on the scene, TW then assisted in transforming them to "Master the Markets" and Tradeguider software.

 

They are intrinsically intertwined, which part do you find illogical. Where is the doubt as to the origin of the material in "Undeclared secrets........." or Master the markets or for that matter VSA indicators. It is clear as daylight, the only thing preventing from seeing that is self delusion/belief that VSA is a separate entity with an independent validity and if any mention is made of Wyckoff then it is assumed it is from Wyckoff zealots. Learn to face the reality.

 

Astonishing part is why are you finding it so difficult to face what is so plain and obvious.

 

We know for a fact you are pally with Manby having visited him, and admire your loyalty, this is not anything personal with Manby but simply with the way the masses are led astray.

 

Truth hurts, tough and BTW it was Manby who came in to question a posting first, nobody set out to engage in lengthy discussion, Manby wanted statements of facts, well here they are.

Edited June 17, 2009 by monad

[DbPhoenix 42]

No that is a logical fallacy completely and utterly. Just because TG sell product based on VSA does not mean they are VSA. Of course they try to imply they are. Buy the Undeclared, Secrets (not from TG) read it, discuss it here, never have a single thing to do with Tradeguider. No need to isolate TG they need not exist in any discussion of VSA. Forget them. In fact that is the advice that is frequently given out on these threads. You actually strengthen their credibility by referring to TG and VSA as if they are the same thing. I bet Gavin loves you guys.

 

*snip*

 

While I empathize with your frustration, TG and VSA are inextricably connected, and that's not due to "outsiders". TG trumpets itself as The Home of VSA (with the full cooperation of Tom Williams). VSA and TG are repeatedly joined in the same posts. Sebastian Manby works for them. Eiger is their "resident psychologist". There are multiple threads in the VSA Forum having to do with TG and TG personnel and TG products and TG announcements. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that newcomers to VSA should get the impression that VSA and TG are the same thing. This misunderstanding makes them ripe for TG promotions and products. Why this is allowed to continue, particularly considering that TG does not contribute in any way to the financial well-being of TradersLaboratory, I've never been able to understand.

 

Some time back, I made an issue of this, resulting in the "Pure VSA" thread, and that thread continues to meet a need, and for those who are interested in VSA per se, I should think that the "Pure VSA" thread, along with the "Helpful Ideas" thread, would be a cornerstone of a VSA Forum. As it is, however, the VSA Forum is largely a TradeGuider TradeMart. Granted, if all the posts on TG or referring to TG were deleted or moved, the forum would be considerably slimmer than it is. But then the idea that it takes 4000 posts to convey an approach is perhaps unreasonable.

 

As for the "church of Wyckoff", I'm not crazy about that either, and I wish it would stop. Williams borrowed a few ideas from Wyckoff and came up with VSA. To say then that VSA is "based on" Wyckoff is somewhat of a reach (guess how many times Wyckoff is mentioned in Undeclared Secrets). In fact, the moment that the effort to make software out of it began, it ceased to have very much to do with Wyckoff at all.

 

To become frustrated, then, over these continuing attacks on TG is to close the barn door LONG after the horses have bolted. On the other hand, removing all references to TG is unrealistic. However, if those who are truly interested in VSA and VSA only are serious, I suggest closing the VSA I, II, and III threads (read only) along with the TG CD thread, the Todd Krueger thread, the Master the Markets ebook thread, etc, and refocusing the effort on the Pure VSA thread and the Helpful Hints thread. In this way, those who are interested in VSA can go on about their business, and they will very likely have a much easier time of understanding what Williams is talking about.

 

TinGull had the right idea when he started the first VSA thread two years ago. But TG made its appearance by post #3. Nothing can be done about that now. But can we not find some way to end this repeated wrangling?

[BlowFish 10]

Eidt this was @ monad rather than DB

 

VSA and Whyckoffs work share common principles and a degree of synergy. Tradeguider is a company that sells stuff. It's like saying Walmart and bananas are intertwined. Anyway it's the conclusions you draw from these 'facts' that you need to be careful of. Lets accept they are intertwined for the moment (I do not) that proves ............ what exactly? (maybe read the link at the end before replying). Lets further say that TG is a waste of space what does that tell you about VSA or W? Nothing unless you argue that there is some causal relationship back from TG -> W/VSA.

 

My main point is there is a thread specifically to discuss the 'phillisophical' pros and cons of VSA, W or whatever else (candles if you like) this thread is about the practical application of VSA.

 

It is no secret that I am friends with Sebastian. I met him a couple of years ago and as I quite often visit the island where he lives we hook up now and then. Suffice it to say if I thought he was of dubious character (like *cough* GH) I would not. Nothing to do with loyalty really but again irrelevant to any rational argument about VSA. I simply pointed out that he was quite revered here until he did work for TG. Not surprising sleeping with the enemy I suppose

 

My favourite page on logical fallacies seems to have gone but you might find this interesting Fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Its actually not a bad description, I think Wikipedia is often unfairly maligned.

Edited June 17, 2009 by BlowFish

[BlowFish 10]

 

As for the "church of Wyckoff", I'm not crazy about that either, and I wish it would stop. Williams borrowed a few ideas from Wyckoff and came up with VSA. To say then that VSA is "based on" Wyckoff is somewhat of a reach (guess how many times Wyckoff is mentioned in Undeclared Secrets). In fact, the moment that the effort to make software out of it began, it ceased to have very much to do with Wyckoff at all.

 

 

I hope you don't take the church comments too personally (what with you being the high priest hehehe) (or seriously for that matter) I sometimes forget the emoticon. It is meant to be good natured, what you do in the W corner is a real credit to the forum.

 

I can't really disagree with too much you have said. I rather admire Williams search for some sort of computerised 'solution' to buying and selling pressure and certain formations (climaxes tests etc.) I think the cause is noble even if so far the results are .....well lets say questionable. (He still searches independantly of tradeguider incidentally). I seem to remember you having an interest a long time back even taking time to email them with suggestions and what not. I remember you being dissatisfied with the replies and concluding it was an opportunity missed.

 

The one thing I would perhaps disagree with is about the mention of TG, it is pretty minimal in these threads every now and then there is a flurry like this (must be over a year since the last one) it lasts a couple of days and a couple of dozen posts no big deal really. Most of the time its just people posting charts and asking questions. Very seldom is one posted from TG (the software). Maybe I just like an argument now and then (no offence monad) I would much rather be on the 'anti' team though.

 

Perhaps with slightly more formal forum guidelines and less tolerance of 'spam' fewer tradeguider posts (pro or con) will be allowed to remain? Really it's not that big a deal.

 

It's a double edged sword....on the plus side it does bring people to the forum and the chances are if they become frustrated with VSA they will end up visiting the Whyckoff corner. One thing that can be said about Gavin is he seems to be a decent marketeer and whilst often full of it not of the absolutely worse sort.