Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

gifropan

Does Traditional Trading Advice Work?

Recommended Posts

Sorry. Stopped Out at Break Even. :)

 

Ahh, thanks. Learnt something new there:) Actually the two charts where pretty interesting too from the point of view of how someone might manage the meanderings of price between 'R' and 'S'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just posting a chart of my trading today to illustrate the point i made earlier in the thread.

 

It was a really slow and boring today, there was a complete lack of volatility in the market and after the worse then expected figures we just trended down all day. I had four trades, all going with the trend using a trading style that i like to use when volatility and momentum is low. I went with the trend,adjusted my came plan to how the market was trading, and i walked away with 8 points on ES, and not one of my trades was a buy.

 

Do you need a better example of the trend is your friend?

 

 

How does support/resistance match up with trends. Because as the price approaches a support, for example, it is in a short term downtrend. So buying at support you are not actually going with the immediate trend or are we buying in the slightly higher time frame which would make it in the direction of the trend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You say you only use a 5 tick stop. What profit target do you use if you stop is only 5 ticks and how long do your trades last? I always find that close stops get taken out all the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You say you only use a 5 tick stop. What profit target do you use if you stop is only 5 ticks and how long do your trades last? I always find that close stops get taken out all the time.

 

 

I hate these types of questions lol :)

 

5 ticks is just fine for my trading, but it all depends on market conditions, if there's massive momentum and volatility in the market then at times i will go up to a 2pt stop, but only rarely. If you're right you're right, if you're wrong then you're wrong, no need to use a massive stop. Plus if a trade changes after i'm in it i'll just scratch it or take a 1tick loss on it.

 

As for exit targets, once again, all depends on how the market is trading. For example yesterday was pretty damn slow, complete lack of volatility etc, so i was just taking 2pts on my trades. Near the end of the day we broke the tight range of the session and momentum kicked in and i took 6pts on that trade. It's all about feel, being able think quickly on your feet and being fickle. There's no A+B=C in trading, you just have to put the time in to develop your feel and find what suits you, because no two traders are the same.

 

I know it's not the answer people want, but it is what it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's all about feel, being able think quickly on your feet and being fickle. There's no A+B=C in trading, you just have to put the time in to develop your feel and find what suits you, because no two traders are the same.

 

I know it's not the answer people want, but it is what it is.

 

It's also about having a trading plan and a well-thought-out strategy, which is a far more rare combination than it should be.

 

Learning to trade via message board posts will only take one so far, like from here to here. If one wants to get from here to ........................................ here, that takes a bit more work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's also about having a trading plan and a well-thought-out strategy, which is a far more rare combination than it should be.

 

Learning to trade via message board posts will only take one so far, like from here to here. If one wants to get from here to ........................................ here, that takes a bit more work.

 

What he said :)

 

You wouldn't think you would become a top barrister by just reading a few books and an internet forum would you...

 

I do find it shocking the amount of people who think trading is going to be easy to learn and is a quick path to riches.

 

It's a job, a professional job and it takes time to get anywhere with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What he said :)

 

You wouldn't think you would become a top barrister by just reading a few books and an internet forum would you...

 

I do find it shocking the amount of people who think trading is going to be easy to learn and is a quick path to riches.

 

It's a job, a professional job and it takes time to get anywhere with it.

 

This is an excerpt from something I posted yesterday. It's made the rounds, and old-timers will already have read it.

 

38 Steps To Becoming A Successful Trader

 

  1. We accumulate trading information - buying books, going to seminars and researching.

  2. We begin to trade with our 'new' knowledge.

  3. We consistently 'donate' and then realize we may need more knowledge or information.

  4. We accumulate more information.

  5. We switch the commodities [or stocks, or futures, or...] we are currently following.

  6. We go back into the market and trade with our 'updated' knowledge.

  7. We get 'beat up' again and begin to lose some of our confidence. Fear starts setting in.

  8. We start to listen to 'outside news' & other traders.

  9. We go back into the market and continue to donate.

  10. We switch commodities again.

  11. We search for more trading information.

  12. We go back into the market and continue to donate.

  13. We get 'overconfident' & market humbles us.

  14. We start to understand that trading success fully is going to take more time and more knowledge then we anticipated.
     
    Most People Will Give Up At This Point As They Realize Work is Involved

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is an excerpt from something I posted yesterday. It's made the rounds, and old-timers will already have read it.

 

38 Steps To Becoming A Successful Trader

 

  1. We accumulate trading information - buying books, going to seminars and researching.

  2. We begin to trade with our 'new' knowledge.

  3. We consistently 'donate' and then realize we may need more knowledge or information.

  4. We accumulate more information.

  5. We switch the commodities [or stocks, or futures, or...] we are currently following.

  6. We go back into the market and trade with our 'updated' knowledge.

  7. We get 'beat up' again and begin to lose some of our confidence. Fear starts setting in.

  8. We start to listen to 'outside news' & other traders.

  9. We go back into the market and continue to donate.

  10. We switch commodities again.

  11. We search for more trading information.

  12. We go back into the market and continue to donate.

  13. We get 'overconfident' & market humbles us.

  14. We start to understand that trading success fully is going to take more time and more knowledge then we anticipated.
     
    Most People Will Give Up At This Point As They Realize Work is Involved

 

bang on mate, couldn't of said it better

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems everyone agrees that trend-trading works, although the evidence presented seems mostly anecdotal. FWIW, here is what my testing shows:

 

1. swing and long-term trading- trend trading does not work for stock index futures (e.g. ES) and has not worked for many years. Still works generally for commodities, although not in the last year.

 

2. day trading- will work with the right strategy (such as mentioned by many of the contributors), but not so much this year, where there have been an inordinate number of afternoon reverses- look at yesterday (June 10) for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It seems everyone agrees that trend-trading works, although the evidence presented seems mostly anecdotal. FWIW, here is what my testing shows:

 

1. swing and long-term trading- trend trading does not work for stock index futures (e.g. ES) and has not worked for many years. Still works generally for commodities, although not in the last year.

 

2. day trading- will work with the right strategy (such as mentioned by many of the contributors), but not so much this year, where there have been an inordinate number of afternoon reverses- look at yesterday (June 10) for example.

 

Your input is appreciated, however, that means nothing without specifying what exactly you define as "swing and long-term" and "day" trading. If you simply say something like "a strategy that exploits the trend does not work for day trading," that statement really doesn't mean very much, because there are many different ways to trade intraday. Of course, it would also help to know what you mean by "trend trading".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Your input is appreciated, however, that means nothing without specifying what exactly you define as "swing and long-term" and "day" trading".

 

"Means nothing" unless I define 3 basic trading terms?

 

Hmmm.

 

I'll give 1 example before I go. Take your favorite trend system (MA cross, MACD, breakout) and run it on a daily chart of the ES for the last 10 years. What do you find?

 

Now I'll bow out and let the trading myths and anecdotes continue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Means nothing" unless I define 3 basic trading terms?

 

Hmmm.

 

I'll give 1 example before I go. Take your favorite trend system (MA cross, MACD, breakout) and run it on a daily chart of the ES for the last 10 years. What do you find?

 

Now I'll bow out and let the trading myths and anecdotes continue.

 

Hi there,

 

No need take a bow, friend. What we have here, no doubt, is failure to communicate.

 

I think that while you understand what you intended to communicate in your first post, it was not presented in such a way as to allow those of us who are not as wise as you to comprehend.

 

For example, the phrase "trend trading does not work" seems just a bit vague. What do you mean by "doesn't work?" Do you mean that it is unprofitable to trade with the trend? Or do you mean that trend following produces a small percentage of profitable trades relative to losing trades? Or do you mean something else altogether?

 

In my experience, I have found that it is best to define one's terms as accurately and comprehesibly as possible, for we cannot assume that one's interlocutors possess the same understanding as does oneself.

 

 

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oops- that was a long only example. Here is the result using a standard (12,26,9) MACD long and short on 10 year daily ES data with $25 RT for slippage and commssion..

 

If you're defining trend as an MAXO (or any other indicator cross or hook or whatever), then of course you're correct; it won't work. But an MAXO is not the traditional definition of "trend", i.e., higher highs and higher lows or vice-versa. Yesterday, for example, there was a very nice trend in the NQ from the market open to 14:00, then another in the opposite direction until the close.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi db,

 

Per my first post, I agree with you that there are intraday trends that can be profitably traded, although it has been more difficult recently. Perhaps others have also found this.

 

btw, I found yesterday more difficult than you did, db. (smiling).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi db,

 

Per my first post, I agree with you that there are intraday trends that can be profitably traded, although it has been more difficult recently. Perhaps others have also found this.

 

btw, I found yesterday more difficult than you did, db. (smiling).

 

If it were easy, everybody would be doing it.

 

Oh wait......

 

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Thales,

 

I meant unprofitable. I attach a performance report on a simple Moving Average Crossover as an example.

 

Hi Windsurfer,

 

Thank you for clarifying your meaning. That moves us in the direction of what might prove to be a fruitful discussion, and I hope you will humor me as I do find this to be an interesting topic, and I myself am not at all clear on how I'd respond the facts stated in your report.

 

For the purposes of our discussion, you are of the opinion that trend trading does not work, by which you mean to say that trend trading is unprofitable.

 

Furthermore, for our purposes here, you define a trend in terms of the relationship of two moving averages to one another.

 

Would you agree, however, that such a definition of a trend, and thus what it means, strictly speaking, to be a "trend trader," may not be a universally accepted means of defining a price trend?

 

Would you be willing to accept that, strictly speaking, there exist, in any particular time frame, three possible trends in which price can move: 1) an uptrend, characterized by a series of higher price highs and higher price lows, 2) a down trend, characterized by a series of lower price lows and lower price highs, and 3) a sideways trend, characterized by a series of overlapping price movements resulting in no measurable net movement up or down?

 

In other words, would you be able to agree with me, that a trend is primarily determined by the movement of price itself, and only derivitively and thus, arbitrarily defined by, say, a moving average, which is an average of price movement over a period of time selected by the technician, and not dictated by the observable movement of price itself?

 

I think that is enough for now, as in order for us test your opinion on the workability of trend trading, we must make sure that we are in agreement as to the basic terms of the discussion.

 

I appreciate your patience with me.

 

Thank you,

 

Thales

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Thales,

 

I meant unprofitable. I attach a performance report on a simple Moving Average Crossover as an example.

 

I think this is pretty common knowledge that moving average crossover systems are not profitable. Applying a known non profitable trending system to a market doesn't prove that the market is non trending; it proves that the system as applied is not profitable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I disagree................

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=11304&stc=1&d=1244762735

 

erie

 

Not sure what this proves either, or that this is even a MA crossover system for that matter. This is pretty easy to curve any system and post a screen print of a profitable sample. However, I have no interest to get into an arguement about this. If you are happy with your MA crossover system, assuming this even is one, then good for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think this is pretty common knowledge that moving average crossover systems are not profitable. Applying a known non profitable trending system to a market doesn't prove that the market is non trending; it proves that the system as applied is not profitable.

 

I agree (with some reservation) and thank you for putting this so succinctly. What I would like to see is the case laid bare showing that trend trading is indeed profitable so ong as one is trading based upon what price is doing, and not on the results of an arbitrarily selected arithmetically derived value(s) from price.

 

My reservation is simply this: While I do not use and would not use such a system to make trading decisions, I would hesitate to argue that all such systems are unprofitable. With a money management system based upon position sizing based upon predetermined inital hard stop points, I believe that even a random entry method could be profitable over the long term.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not sure what this proves either, or that this is even a MA crossover system for that matter. This is pretty easy to curve any system and post a screen print of a profitable sample. However, I have no interest to get into an arguement about this. If you are happy with your MA crossover system, assuming this even is one, then good for you.

 

 

All anyone has to do is write the ma crossover system for themselves or get someone to write it for them to prove whether blanket statements ,"this is not profitable" is true or not. It's not rocket science. I don't care if you believe me or not. That is not my problem......... It is a breakout strategy of a ma crossover. Remember to keep an open mind and try all timeframes and different combination of ma's.

 

erie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Date: 7th April 2025.   Asian Markets Plunge as US-China Trade War Escalates; Wall Street Futures Signal Further Turmoil.   Global financial markets extended last week’s massive sell-off as tensions between the US and its major trading partners deepened, rattling investors and prompting sharp declines across equities, commodities, and currencies. The fallout from President Trump’s sweeping new tariff measures continued to spread, raising fears of a full-blown trade war and economic recession.   Asian stock markets plunged on Monday, extending a global market rout fueled by rising tensions between the US and China. The latest wave of aggressive tariffs and retaliatory measures has unnerved investors worldwide, triggering sharp sell-offs across the Asia-Pacific region.   Asian equities led the global rout on Monday, with dramatic losses seen across the region. Japan’s Nikkei 225 index tumbled more than 8% shortly after the open, while the broader Topix fell over 6.5%, recovering only slightly from steeper losses. In mainland China, the Shanghai Composite sank 6.7%, and the blue-chip CSI300 dropped 7.5% as markets reopened following a public holiday. Hong Kong’s Hang Seng Index opened more than 9% lower, reflecting deep concerns about escalating trade tensions.           South Korea’s Kospi dropped 4.8%, triggering a circuit breaker designed to curb panic selling. Taiwan’s Taiex index collapsed by nearly 10%, with major tech exporters like TSMC and Foxconn hitting circuit breaker limits after each fell close to 10%. Meanwhile, Australia’s ASX 200 shed as much as 6.3%, and New Zealand’s NZX 50 lost over 3.5%.   Despite the escalation, Beijing has adopted a measured tone. Chinese officials urged investors not to panic and assured markets that the country has the tools to mitigate economic shocks. At the same time, they left the door open for renewed trade talks, though no specific timeline has been set.   US Stock Futures Plunge Ahead of Monday Open   US stock futures pointed to another brutal day on Wall Street. Futures tied to the S&P 500 dropped over 3%, Nasdaq futures sank 4%, and Dow Jones futures lost 2.5%—equivalent to nearly 1,000 points. The Nasdaq Composite officially entered a bear market on Friday, down more than 20% from its recent highs, while the S&P 500 is nearing bear territory. The Dow closed last week in correction. Oil prices followed suit, with WTI crude dropping over 4% to $59.49 per barrel—its lowest since April 2021.   Wall Street closed last week in disarray, erasing more than $5 trillion in value amid fears of an all-out trade war. The Nasdaq Composite officially entered a bear market on Friday, sinking more than 20% from its recent peak. The S&P 500 is approaching bear territory, and the Dow Jones Industrial Average has slipped firmly into correction territory.   German Banks Hit Hard Amid Escalating Trade Tensions   German banking stocks were among the worst hit in Europe. Shares of Commerzbank and Deutsche Bank plunged between 9.5% and 10.3% during early Frankfurt trading, compounding Friday’s steep losses. Fears over a global trade war and looming recession are severely impacting the financial sector, particularly export-driven economies like Germany.   Eurozone Growth at Risk   Eurozone officials are bracing for economic fallout, with Greek central bank governor Yannis Stournaras warning that Trump’s tariff policy could reduce eurozone GDP by up to 1%. The EU is preparing retaliatory tariffs on $28 billion worth of American goods—ranging from steel and aluminium to consumer products like dental floss and luxury jewellery.   Starting Wednesday, the US is expected to impose 25% tariffs on key EU exports, with Brussels ready to respond with its own 20% levies on nearly all remaining American imports.   UK Faces £22 Billion Economic Blow   In the UK, fresh research from KPMG revealed that the British economy could shrink by £21.6 billion by 2027 due to US-imposed tariffs. The analysis points to a 0.8% dip in economic output over the next two years, undermining Chancellor Rachel Reeves’ growth agenda. The report also warned of additional fiscal pressure that may lead to future tax increases and public spending cuts.   Wall Street Braces for Recession   Goldman Sachs revised its US recession probability to 45% within the next year, citing tighter financial conditions and rising policy uncertainty. This marks a sharp jump from the 35% risk estimated just last month—and more than double January’s 20% projection. J.P. Morgan issued a bleaker outlook, now forecasting a 60% chance of recession both in the US and globally.   Global Leaders Respond as Trade Tensions Deepen   The dramatic market sell-off was triggered by China’s sweeping retaliation to a new round of US tariffs, which included a 34% levy on all American imports. Beijing’s state-run People’s Daily released a defiant statement, asserting that China has the tools and resilience to withstand economic pressure from Washington. ‘We’ve built up experience after years of trade conflict and are prepared with a full arsenal of countermeasures,’ it stated.   Around the world, policymakers are responding to the growing threat of a trade-led economic slowdown. Japanese Prime Minister Shigeru Ishiba announced plans to appeal directly to Washington and push for tariff relief, following the US administration’s decision to impose a blanket 24% tariff on Japanese imports. He aims to visit the US soon to present Japan’s case as a fair trade partner.   In Taiwan, President Lai Ching-te said his administration would work closely with Washington to remove trade barriers and increase purchases of American goods in an effort to reduce the bilateral trade deficit. The island's defence ministry has also submitted a new list of US military procurements to highlight its strategic partnership.   Economists and strategists are warning of deeper economic consequences. Ronald Temple, chief market strategist at Lazard, said the scale and speed of these tariffs could result in far more severe damage than previously anticipated. ‘This isn’t just a bilateral conflict anymore — more countries are likely to respond in the coming weeks,’ he noted.   Analysts at Barclays cautioned that smaller Asian economies, such as Singapore and South Korea, may face challenges in negotiating with Washington and are already adjusting their economic growth forecasts downward in response to the unfolding trade crisis.           Oil Prices Sink on Demand Concerns   Crude oil continued its sharp slide on Monday, driven by recession fears and weakened global demand. Brent fell 3.9% to $63.04 a barrel, while WTI plunged over 4% to $59.49—both benchmarks marking weekly losses exceeding 10%. Analysts say inflationary pressures and slowing economic activity may drag demand down, even though energy imports were excluded from the latest round of tariffs.   Vandana Hari of Vanda Insights noted, ‘The market is struggling to find a bottom. Until there’s a clear signal from Trump that calms recession fears, crude prices will remain under pressure.’   OPEC+ Adds Further Pressure with Output Hike   Bearish sentiment intensified after OPEC+ announced it would boost production by 411,000 barrels per day in May, far surpassing the expected 135,000 bpd. The alliance called on overproducing nations to submit compensation plans by April 15. Analysts fear this surprise move could undo years of supply discipline and weigh further on already fragile oil markets.   Global political risks also flared over the weekend. Iran rejected US proposals for direct nuclear negotiations and warned of potential military action. Meanwhile, Russia claimed fresh territorial gains in Ukraine’s Sumy region and ramped up attacks on surrounding areas—further darkening the outlook for markets.   Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business.   Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report.   Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar.   Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding of how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE!   Click HERE to READ more Market news.   Andria Pichidi HFMarkets   Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in Leveraged Products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • AMZN Amazon stock watch, good buying (+313%) toi hold onto the 173.32 support area at https://stockconsultant.com/?AMZN
    • META stock watch, local support and resistance areas at 507.48, 557.84 at https://stockconsultant.com/?META
    • TMUS T-Mobile stock, watch for a top of range breakout at https://stockconsultant.com/?TMUS
    • KULR KULR Technology stock watch, pullback to 1.25 triple support area with bullish indicators at https://stockconsultant.com/?KULR
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.