How Long Does It Take to Become a Profitable Trader?

[monad 10]

yes great definition of an edge -clarity from Db as usual.

 

What is mind boggling is that somebody trumpetting to have that kind of experience is in a beginners forum seeking true edge or a system for trading without having the slightest idea of what an edge is and then having the gall to assume that nobody on these sites is making money. On what basis does he announce that?

Surely experience in trading should have taught him by now that "Assumption is the mother of all .............."

and also that developing an edge or a consistently profitable strategy requires considerable personal effort and discipline over a prolonged period.

 

Shamal, would not hold my breath if I were you. Guy is probably in the company of millionaires or billionaires perhaps head hunted by Soros or Buffet after one of them read his life history in here;)

[HAKUNA 10]

Agreed,

When you wear yellow tinted glasses you see the world as yellow

 

when one is a failure in life , the mind projects that scenario on to external world , way of venting frustration and anger as to why the world did not provide the right solution and at the right time:(

Edited August 6, 2009 by HAKUNA

[Tams 20]

It certainly would help, if you have understood and accepted the following:

 

Don't argue with the market...

The trend is your friend.

The market is fair, it gives the same pre-warning to everybody.

The market pulls no surprises, only the unexpected are surprised.

The market moves; it moves up, then down, or down then up.

If the indicator doesn't help, get rid of it.

If you can lose money in the market, you sure can make money in the market.

 

... and finally

Trading is not for everybody.

[BlowFish 10]

Great Post rigel,

I too am waiting for some input from RM686, quite keen to see what a trader with 30-40yrs experience has to say about his own edges.

 

I thought he already did? He believes that you do not find people making 'real money' frequenting forums (post 71). Ergo by his own admission he is not making 'real money'.

 

"The next statement is false. The previous statement is true" The Liars paradox.

[RM686 10]

I dont know what the problem is with you guys. The way I made money was using stokcharts with 3 emas cross overs , using the trix, slow stoch and obv.

Using point and figure charts for support and restence and also to confirm price targets from basic chart patterns from EDwards and Magee. This was all manual and by eyeballing stockcharts..

Where I got burnt from 1/1/09 was getting invoilved with program trading , opening a TRade STation account and the whole back testing thing. I also purchased some indicators from third party firms for use and backtesting on TradeStation. I managed to blow 50% of my trading account.

By the way most of what I was using for many years to make money tested out poorly on back testing but from experience it worked.

Just take a look at the qqqq with a 10/20 ema. you would have been in from march at 29 to 35 then a very small wipsaw and in from 36 to 40.

Hey maybe you guys are all under 30 and computer wizards. I am not.

Why you find what I explained so offending I dont get.

The one book that was suggested when I asked for one example from Taylors thread , take a look at the reviews it got on amazon.

Lets just agree to disagree and cut out all this junior high school BS.

[HAKUNA 10]

As monad pointed out, you are assuming a lot,

 

why is that anybody who knows how to use a computer is under 30 and that all in here are engaged in junior high school BS.

 

You have used a load of indicators, I know every price based indicator inside out.

Have you made any attempt to understand price/vol dynamics as per Wyckoff who afterall never had a computer and did not use any maths indicators.

 

Secondly you have read reviews on Taylor's book on Amazon.com , why is it that those comments appear credible to you whereas any comments here appear as BS.

Taylor's book is a difficult read , hence most give up, why? because it is hard work. and devoid of any indicators. There are concepts ie. how markets are manipulated which have to be assimilated just as in Wyckoff, to understand why and how price behaves as it does.

Go through Taylor's site in here, understand what Richbois and WHY? have to say on the subject, learn, study, put in effort and then watch how the market unfolds each day as per the rules. I have done just that for the past 7-8 months.

 

BTW have been in this business for over 15yrs and am definitely not under 30, infact am trying to encourage my graduated sons to learn this business at least on part time basis now and in future there is always the option to engage fulltime if they ever felt they had enough working for others.

You do not require a Ph.D to operate a simple charting pack like sierra from Infinity brokerage on a computer and study price/vol behavior nor you have to be under 30:)) I sympathise with your loss, but what was the need to get into program trading via Tradestation. Keep it Simple

Edited August 6, 2009 by HAKUNA

[DbPhoenix 42]

I dont know what the problem is with you guys. The way I made money was using stokcharts with 3 emas cross overs , using the trix, slow stoch and obv.

 

Using point and figure charts for support and restence and also to confirm price targets from basic chart patterns from EDwards and Magee. This was all manual and by eyeballing stockcharts..

 

Where I got burnt from 1/1/09 was getting invoilved with program trading , opening a TRade STation account and the whole back testing thing. I also purchased some indicators from third party firms for use and backtesting on TradeStation. I managed to blow 50% of my trading account.

 

By the way most of what I was using for many years to make money tested out poorly on back testing but from experience it worked.

 

Just take a look at the qqqq with a 10/20 ema. you would have been in from march at 29 to 35 then a very small wipsaw and in from 36 to 40.

Hey maybe you guys are all under 30 and computer wizards. I am not.

Why you find what I explained so offending I dont get.

 

The one book that was suggested when I asked for one example from Taylors thread , take a look at the reviews it got on amazon.

Lets just agree to disagree and cut out all this junior high school BS.

 

The offense comes from your assumption that everyone who posts here -- or anywhere else, for that matter -- is as poor a trader as you are, "poor" being defined as someone who allegedly has traded for forty years, then craps away half his trading account in the last six months fiddling with something he doesn't understand.

 

There is enough posted in the Market Profile Forum alone to generate as much income as one is willing to work for. But you, like so many traders who have failed at one thing or another, assume that because you can't do it, whatever "it" may be, it can't be done. If you're so sure that you're surrounded by others who can't trade, why bother posting?

[RM686 10]

As monad pointed out, you are assuming a lot,

 

why is that anybody who knows how to use a computer is under 30 and that all in here are engaged in junior high school BS.

 

You have used a load of indicators, I know every price based indicator inside out.

Have you made any attempt to understand price/vol dynamics as per Wyckoff who afterall never had a computer and did not use any maths indicators.

 

Secondly you have read reviews on Taylor's book on Amazon.com , why is it that those comments appear credible to you whereas any comments here appear as BS.

Taylor's book is a difficult read , hence most give up, why? because it is hard work. and devoid of any indicators. There are concepts ie. how markets are manipulated which have to be assimilated just as in Wyckoff, to understand why and how price behaves as it does.

Go through Taylor's site in here, understand what Richbois and WHY? have to say on the subject, learn, study, put in effort and then watch how the market unfolds each day as per the rules. I have done just that for the past 7-8 months.

 

BTW have been in this business for over 15yrs and am definitely not under 30, infact am trying to encourage my graduated sons to learn this business at least on part time basis now and in future there is always the option to engage fulltime if they ever felt they had enough working for others.

You do not require a Ph.D to operate a program on a computer nor you have to be under 30:))

 

 

So all the reviews about the book on amazon are wrong and I guess that makes you a genius.

All I have been saying is that I did very well using the methods I described. It is only when I got involved with this computer stuff and back testing that I got creamed. If you don't under stand that you should take a reading comprehension coerce.

If you think that only your type of analysis (what ever that is) is how to make money and that the old basics of simple chart reading and point and figure charts are useless than you are the narrow minded one.

I am not really interested is anything you have to say. So if you want to continue hurling insults back and forth so bid.

[JBWTrader 10]

Geez guys you have a way of piling on the new experienced guy...I have seen this on a couple of other occassions too.

 

From my point of view RM686 has been upfront, personal and honest about what he wrote..

 

Lets cut him some slack and welcome him rather than jumping down his throat...okay ?!

 

Best

John

[HAKUNA 10]

First and foremost he has to learn to respect others, he marched in here declaring,

 

Nobody is making any money via trading

All who use computers are most likely under 30 and engaged in junior school BS.

 

How is that helpful. An experienced matured guy would not display such behavior.

 

Ask yourself this: why is he so eager to embrace negative reviews of a methodology which he has not taken any trouble to understand whereas any positive posts or comments here are BS.

 

How does understanding Taylor make me a genius, where is the logic in that?

I have already stated that Richbois and WHY? have provided great insights on the Taylor thread here i.e I have learnt a lot from their input.

 

Now he talks about simple chart reading and point and figure charting, If he took the slightest effort to consult Wyckoff he would realise that Wyckoff is nothing but that.

[rigel 10]

So all the reviews about the book on amazon are wrong and I guess that makes you a genius.

All I have been saying is that I did very well using the methods I described. It is only when I got involved with this computer stuff and back testing that I got creamed. If you don't under stand that you should take a reading comprehension coerce.

If you think that only your type of analysis (what ever that is) is how to make money and that the old basics of simple chart reading and point and figure charts are useless than you are the narrow minded one.

I am not really interested is anything you have to say. So if you want to continue hurling insults back and forth so bid.

 

Now who is sulking and behaving like a school kid?

Grow up man, you are not the only one who has been through tough times.

Who ever told you trading is a walk in the park.

You are the one who initially posted offensive comments so accept that.

Yes we understand you lost in program trading, how does that reflect on everybody else who post on these forums.

We have all lost in this business at some point in time. That does not mean we blame everybody else for our mistakes. Only children engage in that:))

[HAL9000 10]

OT:

 

Calling myself a fool, and after two beers, I remembered something,

that I had to think about somewhere in my past.

 

It was:

 

Respect is earned, not given!

 

Maybe this is something, that all in here should think about.

 

 

Peace,

 

Hal

 

 

P.S.: Yes, sometimes I too had my fun with newbies (and will have :rofl:).

Most often, whenever I think they try too fool or (miss) use me (or others),

 

but here its not fun anymore now.

 

BTW.: Welcome, RM686

[JBWTrader 10]

Yeah I made the mistake once of jumping down a guy on here who I thought was selling something...it turned out he had a lot of experience and I made myself look like a fool...

 

I am trying to learn from that experience !! lol..

 

I was too quick to judge...it can happen hey...

 

All the Best

John

[itzak 10]

yes, I'd like to hear a response to that one.

Also, what is the quickest and cheapest way to become a profitable trader?

[HAL9000 10]

Also, what is the quickest and cheapest way to become a profitable trader?

 

HARD WORK!!! :missy:

 

Regards,

 

Hal

[DbPhoenix 42]

yes, I'd like to hear a response to that one.

Also, what is the quickest and cheapest way to become a profitable trader?

 

As I said a hundred posts ago,

Could be five years. Could be never. Depends in large part on how many detours the wannabe takes, how many dead-ends he winds up in, how susceptible he is to the con. If he's blessed with common sense, a finely-tuned bullshit detector, and a basic understanding of what an auction is, shouldn't take more than a couple of months.

As for the quickest and cheapest way, click the link below left. You could also follow the progress of thalestrader's nine-year-old daughter.

[HAL9000 10]

OK, I try to be serious again,

 

so how long?

 

As long, as it takes! (Maybe never!)

 

 

How, or, what you should look for,

 

well support and resistance lines, trend lines,

Livermoore, Wyckoff, Darvas.

 

Somehow its same, as it ever was.

 

Maybe you add some indicators, that you like?

(Or some, that someone else likes to sell you?)

 

But even if it looks easy, it might just look so.

Finally you need experience.

Build experience via real trading, and before that

from paper trading (simulation).

 

Then, lets say you are finally profitable (whatever that means?).

 

If you change something, you might find yourself in a position,

where you are in lack of experience, and ...

... you have to start from scratch.

 

Maybe if the market changes, and ... , if ..., then ..., or else ...

 

 

Regards,

 

Hal

 

 

P.S.: Its work, its a business, and many businesses fail.

But some stay.

 

BTW.: I like Thales work, and I think, that his stock trading approach might be a good start. Clean and easy, but I don't trade this way. Just that you know.

But; Thales has my respect!

Edited August 6, 2009 by HAL9000
;-) As always.

[A-GAME 10]

great post. thank you...

[zdo 20]

this could be seen as just mincing words, but seeing your trading as a business may be a little bit off… to see it with an attitude that it is like a business instead of as a business may be more adaptive.

along the same lines, many of the ‘unpredictables of the auctions’ are better understood as random-like instead of random.

another is the difference between being concerned about winning and being concerned about making the effort to win.

these are soft subtle, but important, differences conditioning ‘how long does it take…’

 

re "what is the quickest and cheapest way to become a profitable trader? "

highly individualized progressive deliberative practice with real money

[BlowFish 10]

It occurs to me that the time to become profitable is probably directly proportional to the complexity of your approach.

[Tams 20]

It occurs to me that the time to become profitable is probably directly proportional to the complexity of your approach.

 

 

LOL.......... how true.

[zdo 20]

Blowfish,

 

re

It occurs to me that the time to become profitable is probably directly proportional to the complexity of your approach.

 

Filling out the 'formula' a little bit...

 

time to become profitable ~= complexity of approach + complexity of reactions - consistency of approach - consistency of reactions

[zdo 20]

also... send your thanks to Desi62 on TS forum for this old reminder…

Trader's Psychology: Focusing On You and the Markets

[zdo 20]

Complexity and consistency of reaction self-questionaire:

Does my method and / or ‘risk tolerance’ and / or confidence and / or affect (and / or my awareness of these) shift slightly (or radically) as I progress through a string of wins (or losses) ?

[zdo 20]

"The Law of Outcome: whatever you do produces an outcome, regardless of how you value that outcome.

The Law of Adaptation: whatever you do over a period of time creates a change in you to find homeostasis, regardless of how you value that adaptation.

The Law of Progress: whatever you do with continually increasing volume, intensity, density, or complexity, becomes more easily repeatable, regardless of how you value the progress. "

 

Scott Sonnon