[important] New Moderation Rules!! - PLEASE READ

[Soultrader 12]

After putting a lot of thought into the moderation policy of TL, I have decided to give moderation rights back to the community.

 

We are currently working on a new moderation system for members. This will feature:

 

1. Post reporting system: In addition to our current format, each reported post will be counted as 1 point. A total of x points will automatically delete a post in question.

 

2. If a member receives more than x amount of points an automatic infraction will be given. x number of infractions will lead to bans and suspension.

 

3. Only members with x amount of posts will be able to use this system in order to prevent abuse.

 

4. A new page will be created to list currently reported posts.

 

The purpose of this system will be to let the community determine what is appropriate and what is not. For any discussion related to TL's moderation, please post here. Thank you.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Soultrader
typo

[brownsfan019 17]

Are you going to disclose what the 'x' values are?

[Soultrader 12]

Are you going to disclose what the 'x' values are?

 

Once the system is implemented and tested I will start adding values. I am thinking 3-5 reports = deletion, 3-5 reports = 1 infraction, 3 infraction = suspension, 6 infraction = ban... or something in that nature. Maybe limit the use of this system to those with over 50 posts in order to prevent abuse.

 

Please feel free to recommend any values you think appropriate. Thanks.

[sevensa 10]

Hi James

 

One potential issue I can see with that, is that will give the people not liking specific posts all the power and the ones who do, no power.

 

Let's take the recent Bluewave thread as an example. There are obviously a couple of people hell bend against indicators and perceive any commercial indicators mentioned as SPAM. This will only take 3 to 5 of them to get posts like that deleted and potentially the poster as well, but what about for example, the 50 others who found the posts useful?

 

Another example would the posts by Urmablume. I have zero respect for that guy and will flag his posts. That will only take a few more people who feels like that which would be enough to get his posts deleted, while there obviously are many other people who found his posts useful.

 

I can see big potential of abuse in a system like that. This is obvious that there are a couple of strong posters here, each with their "disciples" and this will be easy for one group to gang up against another to get those posts removed. This would be a real shame to see the VSA threads disappear because of 3 to 5 people...

[Soultrader 12]

Hi sevensa, thank you very much for your input. Makes perfect sense.... I can already see some other issues arising from this system.

 

What are your thoughts on limiting the number of reports a member can send per day? Lets say we increase the 3-5 to 10... would this not make much of a difference?

 

Ide like to make this work somehow... where members do not have to dispute with myself or the mods on the moderation policy. But instead it willl be more in a voting fashion.

[sevensa 10]

Hi James

 

I really don't know if increasing it to 10 will make a difference. I suspect there is a fine line there somewhere between making the number too little and too high. Too little, and it gets too easy to get post removed. Too high and you won't get enough people who care enough to report posts.

 

Limiting the number of posts one can flag in a day, certainly would have some kind of impact. If this will really prevent people determined to get a post/poster removed, I am not sure.

 

I don't really have an answer, but I am also not sure that there really is an issue to be fixed. Is moderation really a problem? At the end, you cannot always please everyone and just because a few people might not like the way moderation is done here, doesn't mean there really is a problem. Looking at the whole, I think this is due to moderation that TL did not evolve into another Elitetrader and is one of the premium forums . Let's face it, people who feel more comfortable in the free for all environment of Elitetrader, will not like it here. I guess it depends on the crowd you want to cater for here.

 

I am all for democracy, but in some cases I thinking giving power to the "masses" might not be the best thing to do and having moderators is needed.

 

One thing which might make help is to make moderators actions more visible and make them more accountable. For example, when they are deleting posts, this should be visible which moderator removed it and why.

[Soultrader 12]

Thanks again sevensa. Yes, that was my initial intention to keep TL clean from abusive language and behavior. However, this also comes with a price of not being able to keep everyone happy. I may have taken this too personally.

 

You are right regarding audience types. Those who prefer a free for all environment may not find TL appealing. While those who prefer a more respectful environment may enjoy TL.

 

Good points on the moderation being more visible. I had always disabled this because of the notices left behind when managing a post. It did not make a thread look pretty when it contained a ton of moderated post due to an argument.

 

I appreciate the input. I will discuss with my development as well covering the ideas you presented and see what we can come up with.

 

Feedbacks from all members are welcome before I plan this with my development team. Thank you.

[TradeRunner 10]

I can see big potential of abuse in a system like that. This is obvious that there are a couple of strong posters here, each with their "disciples" and this will be easy for one group to gang up against another to get those posts removed. This would be a real shame to see the VSA threads disappear because of 3 to 5 people...

 

Voting manipulation like this has already occurred with POTM. In January I saw DBPheonix organising "block" voting via the chat room.

 

POTM is just a bit of fun so who cares about that. However voting to have posts deleted and people banned is putting too much power into peoples hands.

Edited April 7, 2009 by TradeRunner

[Harlequin 10]

I have to agree with everything sevesa has said. Unfortunately democracy isn't really suited to the internet.

Maybe a system where we report posts and when x reports are made the post is locked and flagged up for review by a moderator to make a decision would work. From what I have seen here it's only the occasional spammer that causes a problem. So rather everyone jumping in and challenging the spammer we could just hit the report button.

[Soultrader 12]

Voting manipulation like this has already occurred with POTM. In January I saw DBPheonix organising "block" voting via the chat room.

 

POTM is just a bit of fun so who cares about that. However voting to have posts deleted and people banned is putting too much power into peoples hands.

 

Thanks for the feedback. Valid point here. This could potentially ruin the purpose of the community moderation system. Im looking for ways to split this balance of power evenly... so members can also participate in keeping the forum atmosphere.

 

POTM was meant to be fun

 

I have to agree with everything sevesa has said. Unfortunately democracy isn't really suited to the internet.

Maybe a system where we report posts and when x reports are made the post is locked and flagged up for review by a moderator to make a decision would work. From what I have seen here it's only the occasional spammer that causes a problem. So rather everyone jumping in and challenging the spammer we could just hit the report button.

 

I am trying to think of ways to make the report button more effective. We have been quick to take action based on 1-2 reports and with my own judgement. However, my concern is that do members find it fair? Should posts be allowed more votes and voices from other members before they are cleaned up? My tolerance for abusive posts and spam are close to zero that I am rather quick to take action. Not sure if this is a method preferred by members.

[Tams 20]

you have a "Thanks" button on each post, which is a good idea.

 

how about adding a "Thumbs Down" button to complement the feedback?

[DbPhoenix 42]

I hope that you will consider this action carefully. Rather than provide a forum where we can air our differences in public, this course will encourage us to attack each other in secret, resulting in the sort of atmosphere which is exactly the opposite of what TL has traditionally valued. If a post is abusive and disrespectful, it is up to the moderator of the forum (or the administrator, if the forum has no moderator) to act. Waiting for some sort of consensus among the membership merely extends the number of posts involved and prolongs the conflict, and what was one post becomes twenty, resulting in the "ton" of deletion notices. And if nothing is done about the member making the post, then the problem is most likely perpetuated, and the need to act is merely postponed.

 

As for disputes between moderators and members, these are not avoided by concealing the identity of the moderator who has deleted something. Rather the resentment becomes free-floating, usually resulting in further posts which are made because of that resentment. If a moderator wants to avoid disputes, perhaps he should think about why he wanted to become a moderator in the first place. What is it exactly that a moderator is supposed to do, or not do?

 

One should also keep in mind that hundreds of members visit the site every day, and the actions of one or two people become noticeable largely because the site runs so smoothly and because members do behave toward each other in ways that are very different from what one sees on other sites. One can therefore begin to perceive incorrectly that everything is degenerating into chaos when one needs only to weed the garden.

 

As for the comment earlier about campaigning for a POTM, why not? If one sees a post that he believes should be seen by as many members as possible, I see nothing wrong with drawing attention to it and encouraging people to vote for it if there's some sort of recognition involved and if they think it's worth voting for. This is a very different matter from encouraging people to vote against a post, which as of now is fortunately not possible. A more pertinent behavior -- at least as regards the chat room -- is kicking people out of the room, sometimes playfully and sometimes not so playfully. It does not require a stretch of the imagination to see this being done on the boards as well if members are given the option to do so. This to me is a negative, and is completely unnecessary.

[Soultrader 12]

Thank you very much for your detailed feedback Db. Some great points you have mentioned. It is very important to me to hear all feedback to see any potential new problems that may arise from implementing this community moderation system.

 

One should also keep in mind that hundreds of members visit the site every day, and the actions of one or two people become noticeable largely because the site runs so smoothly and because members do behave toward each other in ways that are very different from what one sees on other sites. One can therefore begin to perceive incorrectly that everything is degenerating into chaos when one needs only to weed the garden.

 

This is very true. Perhaps I am being a bit too sensitive here with ongoing issues... and should accept this as the norm. Maybe even compared to other boards the ongoing issues are significantly less. However, I tend to care deeply such issues while I have seen many admins simply leave member issues and requests alone.

 

It does not require a stretch of the imagination to see this being done on the boards as well if members are given the option to do so. This to me is a negative, and is completely unnecessary.

 

Yes, I can visualize this happening. Will either need to think of further ways to make this happen or keep the current moderation format.

 

 

 

Thanks again, I will wait for further responses and see what sort of ideas I can come about. I have already mentioned to development to wait until I receive feedback from my members so plenty of time for me to determine which path to take. Once again, I appreciate the feedback.

[DbPhoenix 42]

Perhaps I am being a bit too sensitive here with ongoing issues... and should accept this as the norm. Maybe even compared to other boards the ongoing issues are significantly less. However, I tend to care deeply such issues while I have seen many admins simply leave member issues and requests alone.

 

In your OP, you said "for any discussion related to TL's moderation, please post here". So perhaps you could clarify what these issues are and why you believe they are ongoing.

[AgeKay 10]

I like the idea of voting with thumb up and thumb down buttons where the current "thanks" would equal a thumb up. You could then show the delta (thumbs up - thumbs down) just for information like digg and youtube does. You could then use this information to highlight "best posts" on the front page and review posts where 80% of votes are thumbs down.

[brownsfan019 17]

Let's just call it what it is - some people don't like others around here and as others have said, it can turn into an internet fight real quick and whoever is more popular will win.

 

For example, sevensa and I did not see eye-to-eye last week. There's a good chance that one and/or both of us would have received some nice points there. Would it be justified? I don't know.

 

Feels like this system would basically tell everyone - play nice & don't say too much b/c you might offend someone who can then try to get you banned.

 

I guess this all stems from how much moderation and limiting discussions you want to have James. If you want an open forum, then this does the exact opposite. If you want a forum where everyone is treated as a child and all potential 'bad' posts are removed, then this will work beautifully.

 

As my signature says - there is a block user function on this forum. If people are easily offended by user, then they can use it. That's what it's there for. I understand that some of my posts may irritate people, but it's your choice to 1) view my responses and 2) to reply to them. If you choose to do that, then I may choose to respond.

[AgeKay 10]

there is a block user function on this forum

 

I didn't know that. It should be more prominent, maybe an additional button below each post or below the avatar.

[DbPhoenix 42]

I guess this all stems from how much moderation and limiting discussions you want to have James. If you want an open forum, then this does the exact opposite. If you want a forum where everyone is treated as a child and all potential 'bad' posts are removed, then this will work beautifully.

 

If one wants an "open forum", ET is only a mouse-click away. On the other hand, if one wants a forum in which members are expected to treat each other with at least a minimum of respect, this one, with a couple of exceptions, works just fine.

[DbPhoenix 42]

I didn't know that. It should be more prominent, maybe an additional button below each post or below the avatar.

 

Unfortunately, while "ignore" seems like a good idea, it doesn't work in practice due to the responses that the ignored post and/or user receives which in turn generally quote the ignored post. And this can go on for thirty or forty posts or more before someone finally steps in and is faced with cleaning up a big mess that could all have been avoided by deleting the initial post or, even better, by the initial poster exercising some restraint.

[bakrob99 11]

I wonder if trying to moderate the posts is going to end up throwing the baby out with the bath water. Who's been upset by the posts? Is there a lack of participation recently that I am not aware of?

 

I find this forum much more sensible and "friendly" than most. I personally wouldn't change it.

[Eiger 10]

I think it would be quite helpful to define the problem. I see many interesting and thoughtful solutions and debate about those proposals, but I have no idea what the issue is To me, it is hard to settle on a solution without really understanding where the system is breaking down or where we see it falling short. Can we clarify what the issue is first? Good, workable solutions are then likely to follow.

 

Eiger

[JBWTrader 10]

Just another thought to digest;

 

Clear rules for Mods that are also transparent to the masses

If a mod edits a post clearly list the rule breach as to why

clear rules for the masses on behaviour and nature of posts

Train the Mods to follow the rules

Clear rules for Banning or sinbinning the masses

Feedbackloop for Mods on performance

 

 

and be as transparent, consistent and open as possible in all of these processes.

 

Well done James I like the discussion.

 

All the Best

John

[brownsfan019 17]

If one wants an "open forum", ET is only a mouse-click away. On the other hand, if one wants a forum in which members are expected to treat each other with at least a minimum of respect, this one, with a couple of exceptions, works just fine.

 

In addition, people can express their opinions of others as well - whether that be vendors, spammers or other riff raff that sometimes makes it's way here. Seems that some people come to TL only once being banned from other forums, but there is an inherent reason why that person was banned other places as well.

 

Regardless, the idea can work or it can backfire. If it turns into a popularity contest, then it will get messy and I think that's the last thing James wants here.

[DbPhoenix 42]

In addition, people can express their opinions of others as well - whether that be vendors, spammers or other riff raff that sometimes makes it's way here. Seems that some people come to TL only once being banned from other forums, but there is an inherent reason why that person was banned other places as well.

 

Regardless, the idea can work or it can backfire. If it turns into a popularity contest, then it will get messy and I think that's the last thing James wants here.

 

Some people understand the difference between expressing an opinion and attacking someone. Some people don't. Which is the point of moderation.

 

But since moderators cannot edit or delete posts outside their own forums, the person to whom these concerns should be addressed is James. Only he can explain why he deleted any given post or thread.

[Soultrader 12]

I like the idea of voting with thumb up and thumb down buttons where the current "thanks" would equal a thumb up. You could then show the delta (thumbs up - thumbs down) just for information like digg and youtube does. You could then use this information to highlight "best posts" on the front page and review posts where 80% of votes are thumbs down.

 

I like this idea alot. Very interesting and have I already have some ideas I could implement through this. Thanks Agekay.

 

I wonder if trying to moderate the posts is going to end up throwing the baby out with the bath water. Who's been upset by the posts? Is there a lack of participation recently that I am not aware of?

 

I find this forum much more sensible and "friendly" than most. I personally wouldn't change it.

 

Appreciate the comments. Lately theres been an increase in concerns and voices raised regarding certain posts. (they have been moderated already) I will not go into specifics but one member has left TL due to former ET members bashing him in various posts. Also instances where personal matters were brought into the threads causing topics to become off-topic. Although this is probably routine amongst many other sites, the increase in this activity alerted me.

 

I think it would be quite helpful to define the problem. I see many interesting and thoughtful solutions and debate about those proposals, but I have no idea what the issue is To me, it is hard to settle on a solution without really understanding where the system is breaking down or where we see it falling short. Can we clarify what the issue is first? Good, workable solutions are then likely to follow.

 

Eiger

 

Hi Eiger, please see above reply I gave to backrob. Hope this is sufficient?

 

Just another thought to digest;

 

Clear rules for Mods that are also transparent to the masses

If a mod edits a post clearly list the rule breach as to why

clear rules for the masses on behaviour and nature of posts

Train the Mods to follow the rules

Clear rules for Banning or sinbinning the masses

Feedbackloop for Mods on performance

 

 

and be as transparent, consistent and open as possible in all of these processes.

 

Well done James I like the discussion.

 

All the Best

John

 

Thanks for the input John. This is a good idea and I will create an outline shortly for mods. For now, I hardly ever included reasons for deletion in order to eliminate these deletion notices which I was not fond of. Ill discuss a few thing with my developer to see if we can apply this into a different format.