[important] Please Read -Trading Educational Services

[Soultrader 12]

Dear TL members,

 

Many new traders often fall victims to fraudulent trading websites or services. Some have posted reviews here and elsewhere. I understand that this is a frustration for many of us and those looking to obtain the proper education.

 

In order to protect the trading community from such services I have decided to launch a new page (name not decided yet) that will list all valuable and recommended educational services by TL.

 

There are a few things I would like to accomplish with this.

 

1. Eliminate all fraudulent websites. Consumers shall not be fooled! We need to put an end to this.

 

2. To raise the level of education provided by these services. Since information is available for free on TL and other websites, our message is this: "Provide further value in regards to trading education or get eliminated. No more demo account chat rooms. We expect education by real successful professional traders."

 

3. To revolutionize the current industry where vendors prey on newbies. What we are after is to create industry standards.

 

In order to accomplish this I am thinking of the following methods:

 

1. Thorough research of the trading service

2. I will personally attend a free trial. If other members would like to participate in this collective effort, we urge you to attend these trials and send us feedback.

3. Review of track records.

4. Value of service in regards to level of education.

 

What I am planning to do is to list only valuable services. Vendors who do not meet our standards or those who we believe are fraudulent will not be listed. Simple as that. We will not bad mouth any vendors nor will we post bad reviews.

 

There are vendors and services that honestly seek to help traders and provide value to the trading community. These services do not deserve to be classified with those that provide absolutely no value. As a result, the page will be dedicated to these valuable services and will try to add credibility for them.

 

Please let me know your thoughts. This is a gradual process that we will try to accomplish throughout the year. Members contributions and help to make this project possible will be appreciated and will speed up the process.

 

Feedback please. Thank you.

[DbPhoenix 42]

I agree with the "no bad-mouthing" part. What does it accomplish other than to make the poster feel better (which may not last long)? But as for the "bad review", I suggest that we follow your guidelines

1. Thorough research of the trading service

2. ...personally attend a free trial...and send us feedback.

3. Review of track records.

4. Value of service in regards to level of education.

report the result, and let the chips fall where they may, positive or negative.

[Hlm 10]

I think the biggest revolution would come from all potential/current customers insisting on seeing a live stream of the services PnL (if they indeed claim to be successful). The account should be traded via the method taught and the minimum suggested size. With today's technology there is absolutely no GOOD reason why this shouldn't be done. Personally, I would never pay for any educational or calling service that does not provide this. To contact many of the popular services out there, question why they don't/won't provide this, and easily counter any defense on a public website would really get things going. Think about it, you would think many of these services would be jumping at the chance to provide this service since it would be the ultimate advertisement. A service that is not willing to provide such information is most likely not worth more than a book...if that. Who knows, maybe I am a little off.

[brownsfan019 17]

James - as you know, this can create a sticky situation for you. I agree 100% that this needs done but you need to cover your butt legally.

 

Example - I posted a review of a site that I compiled and w/in 24 hours of posting here and on ET their attorney was demanding take down.

 

My only suggestion is you keep the reviewers anonymous. You might also want to create a separate website URL to keep it different - something like TLReviews.com or something like that. Or if you really want to take this to the next level, create a completely separate website and do it the right way - keep away from TL and really focus on creating an atmosphere of honest reviews.

 

I've often thought that could be a viable website for someone that wanted to test a multitude of vendors.

[DbPhoenix 42]

The trader should also be very clear about exactly what it is he wants and expects from the website or newsletter or software or whatever and exactly what it is the website etc says it will provide.

 

If, for example, the website or whatever is doing nothing more than making observations and/or providing suggestions, then one is limited as to the complaints he can make. On the other hand, if the website or whatever is claiming that one can make millions in minutes a day by following the website or whatever's suggestions, then one can expect the website or whatever to provide a verified or verifiable track record (the "whatever" also includes chatrooms that "sell" calls, signals, instruction in trading systems or methods and so forth; anyone who is making any claims at all for a system or method or program of any kind in any medium -- software, DVD, CD, etc -- can be expected to provide this verified or verifiable track record. If they won't, or can't, then the trader is in effect buying a used car with no warranty and no opportunity to look under the hood).

[brownsfan019 17]

Some actual proof of trading and profitability would be marvelous too. While highly unlikely to actually get proof that the service in question trades and/or can make money doing it, it would be nice to see some proof that the trading methodology can actually make money.

 

As we know though, it's highly unlikely to see any proof of profitability from services when asked. Most will ignore the question or deflect it to some excuse they have crafted to answer the question.

[Hlm 10]

As we know though, it's highly unlikely to see any proof of profitability from services when asked. Most will ignore the question or deflect it to some excuse they have crafted to answer the question.

True, but in my opinion this would be the "revelation". To publicly dissect the reasons as to why one won't stream their PnL to their own members would be a start. Many people still think it's extremely expensive or complicated and allow the retailers to hide behind this excuse. There are many places you can stream stuff for free. And if one wants to keep it on their own shared web server there are many cheap/free tools out there that will take a snapshot of a portion of the screen up upload it at a specified interval creating a high quality image with using virtually no resources. Of course one can expect excuses, but it would be the public's job to systematically show the fallacy and cowardliness of the majority of them. Who knows, maybe all it will take is getting a couple of the "real gurus" out there to supply such information with their service and start a domino effect with customer expectations.

[brownsfan019 17]

True, but in my opinion this would be the "revelation". To publicly dissect the reasons as to why one won't stream their PnL to their own members would be a start. Many people still think it's extremely expensive or complicated and allow the retailers to hide behind this excuse. There are many places you can stream stuff for free. And if one wants to keep it on their own shared web server there are many cheap/free tools out there that will take a snapshot of a portion of the screen up upload it at a specified interval creating a high quality image with using virtually no resources. Of course one can expect excuses, but it would be the public's job to systematically show the fallacy and cowardliness of the majority of them. Who knows, maybe all it will take is getting a couple of the "real gurus" out there to supply such information with their service and start a domino effect with customer expectations.

 

I'm w/ ya hlm. It would be nice to see something streamed live on a real account but if that's the bar we are setting, might just be easier to say all vendors are a sham unless they can prove otherwise. A 'guilty until proven innocent' approach.

 

[ZOSO 10]

Let me go out on a limb here.

 

You should get what you pay for. For example if someone is selling a trading method for $49.99 and claims they are having success with it and yet won't prove that, so what. You might pay a small amount of money for, say, a moving average crossover system and write it off. Not the end of the world.

 

On the other hand, if there is a course/chatroom that runs into the $000s it is imperative that the buyer complete sufficient due diligence to satisfy himself that the people who sell are applying their methods profitably in a real trading account.

 

This means YOU MUST SEE AND CONFIRM TRADING STATEMENTS FOR AT LEAST 6 MONTHS.

 

If they have ANY excuse for not providing trading statements, then the process is over, period and just move on and don't look back.

 

As a point of reference, there was a vendor who charged $6000 for a course and posted extraordinary results on a website claiming the trades were called and taken by the moderator. Over a year, there were only a dozen losing days trading the ES. Many of the members were so impressed, they gave this guy their own money to trade, thinking it was a way to mint money--after all, he seemed to be a great trader, so how could they lose? None of them asked for his personal trading statements to back up the website's numbers.

 

Well, to make a long story short, it turned out the guy was not a great trader, the website results were truly hypothetical in the strict sense, and most of the members who gave him money ended up taking huge losses on their accounts.

 

Caveat Emptor.

[brownsfan019 17]

At the very least I think James should start a 'buyer beware' thread and let all of us post our thoughts in one thread and then sticky it.

[HAL9000 10]

Well here is my opinion,

 

a white list would be good, just because betrayers (the other way) have attorneys.

 

the problems with a white list are,

 

- not complete (maybe no real problem, it can grow).

 

- ! what, if somebody looses cash using someone from a white list!

 

 

And sometimes, like in trading, you just know in hindsight.

 

Look at Mr. Bolze. I trusted him, but never was a customer

(would have been against my basic rule; be responsible for yourself).

Everything made sense. Now it might more sense.

I don't trust him anymore now.

But I don't have a clue.

 

It up to others to judge on him. Its up to judges. Until then he is innocent, and maybe even after.

Edited March 7, 2009 by HAL9000
Typings.

[Harlequin 10]

 

- ! what, if somebody looses cash using someone from a white list!

 

 

I think it's inevitable that most will lose even when given good calls. One of my mentors told me that if you give 10 new traders a winning strategy, 5 will try to "optimize" it and end up trading a different strategy, 4 will stop trading it as soon as it experiences a draw down and move on to try and find the next holy grail and only 1 will actually make money.

 

 

Look at Mr. Bolze. I trusted him, but never was a customer

(would have been against my basic rule; be responsible for yourself).

Everything made sense. Now it might more sense.

I don't trust him anymore now.

But I don't have a clue.

 

It up to others to judge on him. Its up to judges. Until then he is innocent, and maybe even after.

 

 

As for Dennis I think he gave up the right to presumption of innocence when he did a runner. If they don't catch him and a judge never gets to decide does that mean he was innocent?

BTW he had me fooled too!

[Soultrader 12]

Thank you all for the input.

 

Ill put in some more thought into this and will consult a few others before moving forward. There are some good valid points from both sides which makes it quite tough to come to an agreement inside my head. Will keep this thread updated. Thanks again.

[AgeKay 10]

James, is that the reason I just received the newsletter "The Secret to Beating This Bear Market" by Bernie Schaeffer from Traders Laboratory? You can't be serious suggesting this is a valuable service!??

 

It's obvious they are targeting gullible inexperienced "savvy investors" (quote from the newsletter).

[Soultrader 12]

Hello AgeKay, I will discuss this with my marketing agency. Please accept my apologies, I do not handle the marketing side of TL due to time limitations. I appreciate your input and will take it into consideration.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Soultrader