Caveat Emptor

[CrimeStopper46 10]

I am writing this thread to show a few of my experiences with trading instruction. My hope is to expose some of the questionable activities that are taking place. I will continue my case study for other instruction websites and business I have come across.

 

I will not use real names to protect the guilty. If SoulTrader gives the ok I will give out names but not until then. The first “education” company I want to address is a live chat room where the head instructor Allen, calls real time trades on the E-mini dow (ym) futures contract. In the chat room he has a “buzzer” that sounds when you are supposed to take long or short trades based on Allen’s knowledge of the market. Allen charges $300 a month for his service. On Average Allen calls 7-12 trades during the day. The trader is instructed to “take partial profits at 5-7 points”, Take more profits when the trade moves 11 points on your favor then ride the rest of the position for a bigger winner.

 

In the instruction section of the website Allen tells students to use a stop loss of 20 points. During the trades he will often call out a stop of 50-60 points as a “final” stop. Allen says that he scales into and out of positions because he trades so many contracts.

 

Here is where things get confusing!!!!!!!

 

Some of the trades move 20 or more points against the position from where he says to enter. As the position continues against the traders Allen continues to add contracts making his cost average much lower/higher then the person who just entered on the original call.

From here, Allen will be exiting his position before price is even back to the original entry call.

 

Another questionable practice is when Allen makes a call he will sometimes be in immediately and sometimes he will wait for a deeper re-trace before entry. Allen says for the multiple contract trader to enter part of the position at market when he makes the call. Then add onto the position if the market moves against the trader.

 

Undoubtedly this practice of “averaging down” is a way to ensure that the trader will be holding their largest positions when the market is moving against them. Imagine taking 5 ticks profit when market moves in your favor from the entry, but adding 4-5 times that position every 12-20 points as the market moves against you.

 

Here are some transcripts from the room along with the accompanying chart set-ups.

 

The chart we are looking at is the smallest time frame Allen uses and is used to “take entries”. It is an 89 tick chart with a 89 period exponional moving average(green) attached. Also used is a stochastic with the settings of 14,3,3(bottom pane). The price bars are Hekin Ashi bars that measure momentum red bars mean market is bearish and blue bars are bullish.

 

 

 

 

 

11:42:14 {Allen} [**] SELL SHORT ALERT. USE STOP MANAGEMENT PER GUIDELINES. TAKE PARTIAL PROFITS WHEN MARKET MOVES 7 POINTS IN YOUR FAVOR. [**] ! !

 

11:45:02 {Allen} can add one at 8119

 

11:46:07 {Allen} [**] SELL SHORT ALERT. USE STOP MANAGEMENT PER GUIDELINES. TAKE PARTIAL PROFITS WHEN MARKET MOVES 7 POINTS IN YOUR FAVOR. [**] ! !

 

11:51:01 {Allen} [xx] TARGET HIT - AM i GOOD OR WHAT. CONSIDER EXIT OR TRAIL YOUR STOPS. [XX] !

 

 

 

Lets look at the math behind these series of trades. The original short was called at 11:24 where an entry price of 8099 (give or take a tick) would have been filled. From here at 11:45 Allen says to add on at 11:45 at a price of 8119.

 

Now we are short 2 contracts with an average price of 8109. In order to make +7 we would need market to drop to 8102.

 

Moving along, Allen calls another short at 11:46. It seems we are already short but this is not acknowledged or mentioned. Either we can add another short onto our 2 contracts already or just ignore this signal.(and pray)

 

At 11:51 Allen buzzes Target hit.????????

 

From the last entry at 11:46 a 7 tick move was seen. However If first trade and ADD ON short were taken the price went no where near the 8102 needed for a profitable trade.

Shortly after this trade Allen goes to lunch. And returns at 2:00 to call a couple more trades before then end of the day.

 

I hope all newer traders can appreciate what I am trying to illustrate here. You don't always get what you pay for.

 

Caveat emptor

[BennyHey 10]

Great Post very informative. I'm sure anyone who has been in this business for any amount of time is familiar with vendors and indicators that are more concerned with taking money from your wallet rather then the market.

 

:missy:BennyHey

[CrimeStopper46 10]

Here is what was written in the "official" track record for the trade in question.

Sell at 8118 = profit target at 8110 profit of $105

Sell at 8124 = profit target at 8114 profit of $135

 

 

Sum of Profit/Loss

Date Entry Time Long/Short Buy Price Sell Price Setup Total

 

11:44 AM Short 8110.00 8118.00 Trigger $105.00

8114.00 8124.00 Trigger $135.00

 

I don't really understand where he got these numbers from, he somehow turns 2 losing trades into two winning trades. Additionally the "buy" price of 8110 was never hit at any time. The low of the 11:51 bar was 8111. The high of the 11:46 bar was 8124, this would have never been filled for a short order as it touched but did not fill a limit order.

 

Maybe I am the only one that cares about this but I am so sick of these people passing themselves off as "experts" when this example clearly shows the BS involved. I would love to invent my buys and sells as it suits me after the market is closed but unfortunately my brokers only takes buys and sells I do REAL time.

[trader273 10]

...

I will not use real names to protect the guilty.

 

Why? You think this guy deserves to be protected? I dont think so, put his name out there. Hopefully someone looking to buy his "course" will use google and happen to come across this thread.

[sevensa 10]

Why? You think this guy deserves to be protected? I dont think so, put his name out there. Hopefully someone looking to buy his "course" will use google and happen to come across this thread.

 

Maybe to protect himself? He is probably violating non disclaimer agreements by posting this kind of information. And by posting the actual name, someone might be able to verify how accurate his postings are. For all we know, he has a personal axe to grind against the vendor for whatever reason and is only selectively posting the sections which reflects negatively on the vendor and ignore the positive sections. I mean if this was all bad, you have to wonder why he apparently is still going back to the chat room every day?

 

I don't know who this vendor is and I am not defening him. I am just saying that any story always has two sides and just because a person's handle is CrimeStopper46, we should not automatically assume that his posts are more credible and should be taken on face value. Especially not with only a handful of posts.

 

Everyone always should do their own due diligence as you never know what motives the other party have.

Edited January 29, 2009 by sevensa
typo

[CrimeStopper46 10]

Maybe to protect himself? He is probably violating non disclaimer agreements by posting this kind of information. And by posting the actual name, someone might be able to verify how accurate his postings are. For all we know, he has a personal axe to grind against the vendor for whatever reason and is only selectively posting the sections which reflects negatively on the vendor and ignore the positive sections. I mean if this was all bad, you have to wonder why he apparently is still going back to the chat room every day?

 

I don't know who this vendor is and I am not defening him. I am just saying that any story always has two sides and just because a person's handle is CrimeStopper46, we should not automatically assume that his posts are more credible and should be taken on face value. Especially not with only a handful of posts.

 

Everyone always should do their own due diligence as you never know what motives the other party have.

 

Obviously the vendor posts good calls in the room, that's not the point. I was showing how their is a "fudge factor" that all rooms of this type that I have come across use. I was a subscriber to this room for one month of a monthly subscription. I don't "keep going back day after day" as u say.

 

I am not posting the name of the vendor because its not just this room but all the rooms of this type I have come across. I was going to post other techniques used by other vendors I have tried, but I am not really getting the feedback I thought I would.

 

Its just an idea I had that I thought would make an interesting thread.

 

Of course I have an ax to grind Sevensa. DO YOU THINK it is moral for this vendor to post 2 losing trades as 2 winning trades?? Newer traders looking for education look at that Track Record and assume it is legit.

 

I am using an alias to protect myself. I have many posts on many sites and I don't want any personal attacks like I have seen happen on other sites(elite trader).

 

I am doing this as sort of a Consumer Reports for trading "education" websites. I spent a few hours putting together all this information and creating as understandable a thread as I could.

 

Hope all had a profitable day today. I am flat and green so I can't complain.

[sevensa 10]

Obviously the vendor posts good calls in the room, that's not the point.

Of course this is important. For the "fudged" trades, the trader simply could have made a calculation/typo mistake. Did you ask him for an explanation? Would the track record have been unprofitable overall without the fudged trades, or are they maybe irrelvant to the overall profitability of the system because they are only a small portion? The point is that it appears that you might be selectively present certain parts of information which proves your point, but ignore the rest which doesnt.

 

Of course I have an ax to grind Sevensa. DO YOU THINK it is moral for this vendor to post 2 losing trades as 2 winning trades?? Newer traders looking for education look at that Track Record and assume it is legit.

He might have simply made a mistake or there might have been another rational explanation which you have missed. Have you asked the vendor for an explanation before you have jumped to conclusions? Having had some experience with vendors in the past, I will agree that you are probably right, but on the other hand, I have no way of verifying what you say is true either. You did not really provide any facts other than portions of a chat log which may, or may not be true.

 

I am doing this as sort of a Consumer Reports for trading "education" websites. I spent a few hours putting together all this information and creating as understandable a thread as I could.

What are your credentials and backround you feel qualify you to provide a "service" like this? Even though I agree in principe that many vendors are shady, not posting any names, cherry picking portions of chat scripts and hiding behind an alias do not really give you much credibility either. For all I know, you are a competitor or disgruntled ex partner of this particular chat service.

 

I am using an alias to protect myself. I have many posts on many sites and I don't want any personal attacks like I have seen happen on other sites(elite trader).

If what you are presenting are undeniable facts that cannot be refuted, why would you need protection?

[CrimeStopper46 10]

Of course this is important. For the "fudged" trades, the trader simply could have made a calculation/typo mistake. Did you ask him for an explanation? Would the track record have been unprofitable overall without the fudged trades, or are they maybe irrelvant to the overall profitability of the system because they are only a small portion? The point is that it appears that you might be selectively present certain parts of information which proves your point, but ignore the rest which doesnt.

 

I assure you it was not a mistake. These "mistakes" happen everyday and I could post more if I wanted to go through all the effort. Do you think turning two losing trades would effect the profitability of a system??

 

 

He might have simply made a mistake or there might have been another rational explanation which you have missed. Have you asked the vendor for an explanation before you have jumped to conclusions? Having had some experience with vendors in the past, I will agree that you are probably right, but on the other hand, I have no way of verifying what you say is true either. You did not really provide any facts other than portions of a chat log which may, or may not be true.

 

Its true I could be making all this up, why would I create a false chat log and false track record and post it here?? I have better things to do with my time.

As far as asking the vendor yes I have asked about these descripencies. I usually get one of two responses:

 

1. On trades that go against the trader you shold have waited for the PullBack before entering. ie. the first entry he has at 8119.

2. If trade goes in your favor from entry then you should have gotten in quicker and you missed the trade.

 

You did not really provide any facts other than portions of a chat log which may, or may not be true.

 

What other facts would u like me to post??

 

What are your credentials and backround you feel qualify you to provide a "service" like this? Even though I agree in principe that many vendors are shady, not posting any names, cherry picking portions of chat scripts and hiding behind an alias do not really give you much credibility either. For all I know, you are a competitor or disgruntled ex partner of this particular chat service.

 

I am just a guy who loves trading. I have been trading futures for a few years and have tried many vendors. I thought I would share some of my experiences in this thread.

 

I assure you I am not a competitor. Please note I have not used ANY vendor names.

 

 

If what you are presenting are undeniable facts that cannot be refuted, why would you need protection?

 

I mentioned why above. I don't want to recieve any personal attacks. I am just posting my experience. I see you are very sceptical of even me, good for you, thats kinda the point I'm trying to make is not judge things at face value.

 

I could create a website with 100% accuracy over 5 years, with a disclaimer in small print at the bottom and no impartial, unbiased source could verify it. ONLY someone who had taken my course could say I was fudging my numbers.

 

Maybe they would make a thread on Traders Labatory and call me out. I don't know

[CrimeStopper46 10]

Oops, the above post has my responses to sevensa's questions INSIDE the quote bubble.

[CrimeStopper46 10]

Been reading through your posts sevensa, it seems you are very quick to criticize the work of other people.

 

ALL YOUR POSTS point out the faults in other peoples posts. Not to mention questioning their intelligence and integrity. Maybe you should post some of your own work rather than telling others how wrong they are.

[sevensa 10]

Been reading through your posts sevensa, it seems you are very quick to criticize the work of other people.

 

ALL YOUR POSTS point out the faults in other peoples posts. Not to mention questioning their intelligence and integrity. Maybe you should post some of your own work rather than telling others how wrong they are.

 

You mean my posts are just like yours?

 

I have pointed out that there might be another side and other motives behind your posts since you have no track record here. You don't have to like it. I am happy to agree to disagree with you.

 

Good luck in your trading and I hope you find a chatroom you are happy and profitable with.

[CrimeStopper46 10]

You mean my posts are just like yours?

 

I have pointed out that there might be another side and other motives behind your posts since you have no track record here. You don't have to like it. I am happy to agree to disagree with you.

 

Good luck in your trading and I hope you find a chatroom you are happy and profitable with.

 

Yes I am, made money everyday this week. So I can't complain. Thats fine if you wanna play devil's advocate. Healthy debate is how problems are re-contextualized(that can't be a real word).

 

If you wanna talk about something concrete (ie. trades, numbers etc.) that would be good. What I don't care for is questioning my motives and integrity.

 

All the unsavory vendors should be forced to follow some sort of regulation IMO. These guys are getting rich selling systems and indicators etc. that simply don't WORK. I lost money for 6 months when I started using a system that just didn't work. The track record on the vendor's site was awesome, but in the real world the results could never be matched.

 

I'm trying to keep others from making the same mistakes I did when I started. I dumped 15k into this system before finally giving up on it realizing that the approach I was using would not work.

 

I put this thread together to warn others and YOU tell others(by posing your reply) that my motives are questionable and I am not experienced enough to have a valid opinion.

 

What is YOUR motive?? To defend a vendor who's material you have never seen?? I HAVE taken the course. That is enough for me to comment on it. You HAVEN'T so you really have no place.

 

I'm done with this thread unless Someone else posts some reply's that they got something useful out of this.

 

who cares anyway, I don't even know why I am replying.

 

Have a great weekend all and GOD bless.

[ZOSO 10]

I'll lay odds this vendor is Alex L. Wasilewski who operates PureTick.

 

He has one of the worst reputations in an industry that is full of conmen. Read all about him at Elite Trader.

 

And, if this is PureTick, you should be referring to "ticks" not points on targets and stopouts.

[trader273 10]

... you should be referring to "ticks" not points on targets and stopouts.

 

 

Actually looks like he was talking about the YM, so ticks and points are one in the same.

[ZOSO 10]

OK. I didn't realize that.

[ZOSO 10]

All the unsavory vendors should be forced to follow some sort of regulation IMO. These guys are getting rich selling systems and indicators etc. that simply don't WORK. I lost money for 6 months when I started using a system that just didn't work. The track record on the vendor's site was awesome, but in the real world the results could never be matched.

 

I'm trying to keep others from making the same mistakes I did when I started. I dumped 15k into this system before finally giving up on it realizing that the approach I was using would not work.

 

I put this thread together to warn others and YOU tell others(by posing your reply) that my motives are questionable and I am not experienced enough to have a valid opinion.

 

What is YOUR motive?? To defend a vendor who's material you have never seen?? I HAVE taken the course. That is enough for me to comment on it. You HAVEN'T so you really have no place.

 

I'm done with this thread unless Someone else posts some reply's that they got something useful out of this.

 

who cares anyway, I don't even know why I am replying.

 

Have a great weekend all and GOD bless.

What system did you spend $15K on? Not the one you describe in the opening paragraph, right?

[Susana 10]

This place is called Puretick.com and it's 100% major scam, they cannot trade or teach.

 

The head trader, Alex, is also mentally ill, he treats his customers at times with disrespect.

 

Avoid like the plague.

[Trade Viper 10]

Hello all, interesting discussion. Here are some facts.

 

1. If you are a consistantly profitable trader, just 10-12 percent per year consistantly, you will have more size enabled to you than you can handle. How to prove what I am saying is true? Post 1 or 2 years certified results on any board, Elite, Traders Lab, Forex Factory etc. You will have them lining up to enable you, you will start small but if you keep your wits, size is never a problem. So the bottom line is, if you are consistant you will always be able to make more money than being a vendor.

 

2. Vendors vend because they cannot trade, some traders put out newsletters etc. But a chat room, no way it is too distracting, people wanting your attention, whining about losses etc. Nope if they could trade they would be trading.

 

3. They never ever post certified live trade statements, why, because they are not trading live. Why do you think they have the "theoretical" trading disclaimers, because the trades are theoretical and not real!

 

4. Systems, holy grails etc. Unless you trade using game theory, the system and holy grail is in your head, not from some guy who says he has conquered the markets, Dude if you have conquered the markets why are you bothering to teach, just trade.

 

5. The I like to teach syndrome, how altruistic, this fool is going to teach you how to trade and altruistically he will remove a few hundred bucks from your pocket. C'mon folks, "McFly is anybody home". I mentor a select few, for free, why? I don't need others money.

 

Please excuse my tenor but I really am sick of seeing people throw away their hard earned cash to some fraud, due dilligence, due dilligence, due dilligence, if you learn nothing else from trading please learn this.

 

The Ever Disliking Vendors VIPER

[markw 10]

Crimestopper thanks for your post .

 

 

 

Mark

[aiki14 10]

Hello all, interesting discussion. Here are some facts.

 

1. If you are a consistantly profitable trader, just 10-12 percent per year consistantly, you will have more size enabled to you than you can handle. How to prove what I am saying is true? Post 1 or 2 years certified results on any board, Elite, Traders Lab, Forex Factory etc. You will have them lining up to enable you, you will start small but if you keep your wits, size is never a problem. So the bottom line is, if you are consistant you will always be able to make more money than being a vendor.

 

2. Vendors vend because they cannot trade, some traders put out newsletters etc. But a chat room, no way it is too distracting, people wanting your attention, whining about losses etc. Nope if they could trade they would be trading.

 

3. They never ever post certified live trade statements, why, because they are not trading live. Why do you think they have the "theoretical" trading disclaimers, because the trades are theoretical and not real!

 

4. Systems, holy grails etc. Unless you trade using game theory, the system and holy grail is in your head, not from some guy who says he has conquered the markets, Dude if you have conquered the markets why are you bothering to teach, just trade.

 

5. The I like to teach syndrome, how altruistic, this fool is going to teach you how to trade and altruistically he will remove a few hundred bucks from your pocket. C'mon folks, "McFly is anybody home". I mentor a select few, for free, why? I don't need others money.

 

Please excuse my tenor but I really am sick of seeing people throw away their hard earned cash to some fraud, due dilligence, due dilligence, due dilligence, if you learn nothing else from trading please learn this.

 

The Ever Disliking Vendors VIPER

 

I don't post much, but this is such a good post I had to say it out loud. I also have mentored a few and never taken a dime for it, don't do chat rooms because I focus on the business at hand which is trading, and am sickened by the vendors promulgating some system. A system works until it doesn't then you sell it.

 

If you're a successful trader you already know these things, if you're anything else read the above post until you do.

[ZOSO 10]

This shyster Alex simply took the setups and indicators from John Carter and repackaged them under the PureTick name.

 

To charge $300 a month is highway robbery to have someone who doesn't even trade live give tick scalp trades with a risk reward ratio of 10 to 1. This is a formula for ruin if there ever was one.

[CrimeStopper46 10]

Thanks for the posts guys, I knew someone would be familiar with what I was taking about and call him out. Which is fine. You guys are on the same wavelength as me. I posted this in the Beginner's section to warm people just starting out.

 

Sevensa's posts were getting to me and glad to see you guys appreciate the work I did putting the room calls and chart together. If you guys have experience with any other vendors please share.

 

I like using facts and stats rather then just saying XYZ vendor is a rip-off stay away.

 

Have a great rest of the weekend, see you guys on the battlefield Mon. hehehehehe

[CrimeStopper46 10]

What system did you spend $15K on? Not the one you describe in the opening paragraph, right?

 

The system didn't cost 15k...thats how much $$$ I lost using it.

 

The cost of the 3 day course and all the indicators packaged together was like $1700. I did it with my dad so we split the cost. The company is not longer in existence but that is how I was introduced to futures.

 

I wrote the guy an e-mail everyday showing the "discrepancies" between the "profitable" trades he had on the the site and the signals the system actually fired off. Finally he got so sick of me he just stopped responding. (talk about standing behind your system and company)

 

I tried making slight adjustments to the system thinking I could get it to be profitable. Finally after about 6 months I had lost $15,000 and decided to start over from scratch.

[BlowFish 10]

This shyster Alex simply took the setups and indicators from John Carter and repackaged them under the PureTick name.

 

 

Not familiar with what Pure Tick pedal but watched the drama at ET with mild amusement for a short while. What really made me chuckle was that quote. Pure Tick have stole and re-packaged stuff that Carter and Senters stole and re-packaged (from the public domain). Oh the bitter irony of it all :rofl:

[brownsfan019 17]

I think there's a simple market out there for taking free sh*t and put it in a shiny box and off you go.

 

:rofl: