Do Courses Help?

[trk08 10]

I am fairly new at this. Admittedly I have made a bit of money (and sweated it out) but there is a great deal that I am still trying to get a grip on. I have considered two:

1. Larry Levin - Secrets of Traders - relatively expensive

2. M Parnass

 

The point would be to fill in gaps that I am unfamiliar with.

 

And of course there is so much 'stuff' around.

 

Any opinions would be helpful.

Thanks in advance

[brownsfan019 17]

trk - if you are new and looking for info, I'd suggest a few FREE websites and then start from there.

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/

http://www.cmegroup.com/education/index.html

 

See what interests you and then maybe get some books. I attached a PDF to this post w/ some of my favorites.

 

From there, you can decide what courses to consider paying for. Problem buying one right now is that you have no idea how/what you want to trade. If you buy a course that emphasizes lots of trades per day that may not suit you. Or maybe you are an action junkie that would be bored w/ a course that takes 1 trade per day.

 

I know the temptation at first is to purchase the key to the ATM machine and you'll learn to adapt to it but you'll eventually find out that there is no key and there is no ATM machine just sitting there waiting for you. What you will eventually see is that this is incredibly hard and difficult work that many are not cut out for. You'll see that if someone was truly a good trader and making good money, there's no way they'd be selling it online for a few thousand dollars. Something that produces regular income is literally priceless. If it did as advertised firms like Goldman Sachs, Smith Barney, etc. would purchase it for MILLIONS AND MILLIONS. But it would of course be proven to make money. Which would be a serious problem for most of these vendors.

Amazon.com trading book reco's (tiny url's).pdf

[CandleWhisperer 10]

... if you are new and looking for info, I'd suggest a few FREE websites and then start from there...See what interests you and then maybe get some books. I attached a PDF to this post w/ some of my favorites.

 

 

...You'll see that if someone was truly a good trader and making good money, there's no way they'd be selling it online for a few thousand dollars. Something that produces regular income is literally priceless. If it did as advertised firms like Goldman Sachs, Smith Barney, etc. would purchase it for MILLIONS AND MILLIONS. But it would of course be proven to make money. Which would be a serious problem for most of these vendors.

 

Would somebody please explain the difference between a person selling a course and a person writing a book.

 

If the premise is a person selling a course could make 10xs more money actually trading the stuff he is selling and thus the information must be suspect. Why is this not the same for an author? Especially in today's world. Where the net basically makes distribution issues non existent. Who wants to worry about publishers when you can create a site on your own?

 

Don't get me wrong, most of the stuff on the web is junk. It plays on a newbies desire(human nature in general) to make easy money. But there is no agency that certifies book sellers as honest. I don't believe the difference is price. There is an underlying different prejudice involved. What is it, and why?

[steve46 12]

Its seems to me that there are many ways to get information about the markets and trading in general. I would suggest the Exchanges first and then books (with caution) and finally when you have some experience to fall back on, look to internet sites (again with great caution).

 

The majority of participants get involved (in actual trading) long before they should. Generally new traders overestimate their abilities, thus they lose money either quickly or slowly because they are groping the dark, or operating with information that is dated or ineffective.

 

There is one approach that always works if you can pull it off.

 

Do what works, and by that I mean....look carefully at the idea or concept you are learning about...Test it in the market by careful observation first, then see if you can execute the strategy or method in a way that gets you in place to profit while managing risk appropriately. Look at the result. If after a short learning process (a month or two at most) you see some promise (meaning you see a way to actually make a profit while limiting loss) then you have something. Apply this to any book, concept, method, any traders advice, and you will have a good "acid test". In my view the rest is people talking and as the old saying goes "talk is cheap".

 

Hope this helps.

Steve

Edited December 17, 2008 by steve46

[DbPhoenix 42]

Would somebody please explain the difference between a person selling a course and a person writing a book.

 

If the premise is a person selling a course could make 10xs more money actually trading the stuff he is selling and thus the information must be suspect. Why is this not the same for an author? Especially in today's world. Where the net basically makes distribution issues non existent. Who wants to worry about publishers when you can create a site on your own?

 

Don't get me wrong, most of the stuff on the web is junk. It plays on a newbies desire(human nature in general) to make easy money. But there is no agency that certifies book sellers as honest. I don't believe the difference is price. There is an underlying different prejudice involved. What is it, and why?

 

Depends on the contents of the course and of the book. Mark Douglas, for example, isn't selling a system in Trading In The Zone. He instead focuses on helping the trader to develop his own. And books are usually available at the library. For free.

 

The trader who's looking for someone to tell him what to do for a price will have no trouble finding those who are eager to do so. All he has to do is stand still and they'll be all over him. But it's his money, and if he's dumb enough to waste it, it's his business.

[Eiger 10]

I am fairly new at this. Admittedly I have made a bit of money (and sweated it out) but there is a great deal that I am still trying to get a grip on. I have considered two:

1. Larry Levin - Secrets of Traders - relatively expensive

2. M Parnass

 

The point would be to fill in gaps that I am unfamiliar with.

 

And of course there is so much 'stuff' around.

 

Any opinions would be helpful.

Thanks in advance

 

You are taking a prudent approach by asking this question.

 

I am familiar with neither L Levin nor M Parnass, so can't offer a comment on these.

 

As you mention, there is a lot of 'stuff' around. There is no real control over the quality of the material (e.g., no peer review panels), so some is high quality, some just stuff.

 

From my perspective, I can think of two things to suggest:

 

First, learn how to read a chart. Learn how to read bar-by-bar and how to read the structure of the chart. There are several useful sources on this. Look up the Wyckoff Course, Tom Williams, VSA, Merrill, Neil Humphreys. Even if you like indicators, you still need to know how to read the price and volume action and what they mean.

 

Second, look for things that have stood a reasonable 'test ot time' and are recognized by most as significant, if not definative, in their area. New stuff is OK, but you would be better served by grounding yourself in the standards in the field first. Keep in mind that the basic action of the markets hasn't changed much from when the markets first began. This is because the markets are essentially an expression of mass human behavior, and that hasn't changed in thousands of years (nor will it change in the foreseeable future). The standards are, therefore, quite valuable. So, if you want to understand the MACD, look up George Appel; Market Profile, see Dalton; Fibonacci, check out Joe DiNapoli; channels and envelops, look to John Bollinger; day trading and short swing methods, Larry Conners; Elliott Wave, Prechter; basic chart patterns, Schabacher; trading the S&Ps, Linda Raschke; applied rocket science, John Elhers.

 

When you have hit on something that 'speaks' to you, then go take a course on that subject, preferably by the author or someone recognized for that work.

 

Hope this is helpful,

 

Eiger

Edited December 17, 2008 by Eiger

[BlowFish 10]

You are taking a prudent approach by asking this question.

 

I am familiar with neither L Levin nor M Parnass, so can't offer a comment on these.

 

The trader who's looking for someone to tell him what to do for a price will have no trouble finding those who are eager to do so. All he has to do is stand still and they'll be all over him. But it's his money, and if he's dumb enough to waste it, it's his business.

 

Asking the question but doesn't want to hear the answer which was plainly spelled out in the thread about secret of traders.

[brownsfan019 17]

Would somebody please explain the difference between a person selling a course and a person writing a book.

 

If the premise is a person selling a course could make 10xs more money actually trading the stuff he is selling and thus the information must be suspect. Why is this not the same for an author? Especially in today's world. Where the net basically makes distribution issues non existent. Who wants to worry about publishers when you can create a site on your own?

 

Don't get me wrong, most of the stuff on the web is junk. It plays on a newbies desire(human nature in general) to make easy money. But there is no agency that certifies book sellers as honest. I don't believe the difference is price. There is an underlying different prejudice involved. What is it, and why?

 

Difference?

 

THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.

 

 

You can buy A LOT of trading books for a few hundred or even $1,000. You can get ONE course for $5000+.

 

Not to mention that it takes a little more substance to get a publishing deal from a reputable house vs. setting up a website in 30 minutes & calling yourself a guru.

[Wilson 10]

I don't understand why would anyone want to spend money on courses when they're so many free online educational resources out there including courses, books that you can download for free, forums, and websites like babypips.ocm

[ckait 10]

If your looking for someone too teach you how to trade your probably not going to find what your looking for. If your looking for someone to help you understand how the market works, thats a different thing all together and theres a lot of info on that good and bad. Even if you get a profietable system from someone doesnt gaurantee that YOU can make the same system profietable. So becareful where you spend your money. The best way is too learn for your self after being steered in the right direction.IMO.

[rangerdoc 13]

If you're fairly new to trading, I would recommend you start with books over pricey courses. Courses tend to focus on a fairly narrow methodology or topic, so there's not much bang for your buck. As a new trader, you have yet to discover what type of trading or methodology will fit you best. Therefore, it would be prudent to keep your cash until it can be spent on a course that you know will be most beneficial to you. There's two things that all traders MUST learn before they can be successful: 1) The nature of the markets. 2) The nature of themselves. The second, IMHO is more difficult than the first. Because of this, it is extremely unlikely that you will pick up someone else's technique or methodology and trade it successfully. I've done dozens of courses and seminars over the years. While I always took away something of value from every one, not a single one of them was complete. Each of these small things got assimilated into my own methodology. So, what I'm trying to say here is, One course will not be enough. Knowing this, initially your money could be spent better elsewhere.

 

As for the books, try not to get information overload. I think I could say the same for books as I can for all the courses I've attended. I have an enormous trading library. Again, no single book is sufficient to make you a good trader. Out of the hundred or so trading books I've read, I'd say 95% of the content was worthless. The problem is, you may have to read the whole book to find that one golden nugget hidden within.

 

Oh, and don't forget to have fun!

Edited January 5, 2009 by rangerdoc

[trk08 10]

thanks! So far that is what I have found to be true. I have about 10 books(ebay) and am returning one course. Forums have been interesting and helpful.

Any recommendations on a good paper trading site for stocks and options?

 

thanks again

[Guest mifgjkar]

Would somebody please explain the difference between a person selling a course and a person writing a book.

[rangerdoc 13]

Would somebody please explain the difference between a person selling a course and a person writing a book.

 

About $4,980 profit per customer.

[mtrizzzz 10]

Hey Guys, New to trading here as well (been investing for 4 years) have done some swing trades in the past couple months.

 

I went to free workshop with OTA (Online Trading Academy) for their in office courses. I am debating signing up for their protrader (equities) 7 day intensive trading course as well as their 6-7 day FX Course. I have books on trading, reading up on tech analysis, need to learn better risk management techniques.

 

I think it might be a good way to put together a lot of basics to get me started rather than spending 30 days putting the basics together for myself.

 

Have you heard any good/bad things? I've been active on a thread regarding OTA on EliteTrader as well. The people that went did not seem to regret it, and when I was there I spoke to some people in the course and they said it was definitely worth it. If not help me become a good trader, at least help me in my investments.

 

Might lock it in tomorrow...but def open to hear everyones opinions!

[BennyHey 10]

My opinion is that if you have read a few good books there is nothing revolutionary that a seminar is going to tell you that you haven't heard or read before. That said, their is nothing wrong with paying for a little education. Everyone has to start somewhere.

 

Just keep in mind MOST education websites are out there to separate you from your money. Some of the prices for these seminars and trading courses are ridiculous, (ie. $5,000) for a 3day seminar with John Carter where he shows "His" squeeze indicator and trend indicator and bricks indicator......oh you don't have them, just go to his website and download them for $400 a piece. Still not making money? Come to our personal mentorship ($5,000 a DAY!!!!)

 

IMO just watch the market and a Time & Sales window. Watch how the orders flow, If you wanna learn about Gap Fills type it into Google and you'll be amazed what good things come up.

 

:missy:BennyHey

[mtrizzzz 10]

My opinion is that if you have read a few good books there is nothing revolutionary that a seminar is going to tell you that you haven't heard or read before. That said, their is nothing wrong with paying for a little education. Everyone has to start somewhere.

 

Just keep in mind MOST education websites are out there to separate you from your money. Some of the prices for these seminars and trading courses are ridiculous, (ie. $5,000) for a 3day seminar with John Carter where he shows "His" squeeze indicator and trend indicator and bricks indicator......oh you don't have them, just go to his website and download them for $400 a piece. Still not making money? Come to our personal mentorship ($5,000 a DAY!!!!)

 

IMO just watch the market and a Time & Sales window. Watch how the orders flow, If you wanna learn about Gap Fills type it into Google and you'll be amazed what good things come up.

 

:missy:BennyHey

 

 

 

yeah the 7day course with OTA is $5k, theyll discount it if i purchase the forex course as well (also something I'd like to get into/learn more about) They do no promise that you will make money or get rich quick. But they do say they will help new traders with an overview of trading, risk management, etc etc so I think I'd rather learn about it first and give them my 5k than handing it over to the market. If anything, I'll hopefully be able to at least time my investment entry points better which over long haul will pay itself off

 

BTW these can be considred training for business, so they can be deducted for taxes if you use an LLC for trading and they offer some sorta discounts with TradeStation where they will give you discounts on trades till the $5k is recooped.

 

Think I should pull the trigger? I'm 85% sure I am...

[sevensa 10]

Think I should pull the trigger? I'm 85% sure I am...

 

 

I think you have already made up your mind is just looking for someone to agree with you so that you have justification. If you want to learn to trade, the first rule is that you and you only are responsible for your actions and no one else.

 

If the course is a total waste of money, who are you going to blame? Yourself or an anonymous person on a chat forum who told you it is a good idea to take the course? Your money, your decision.

[BlowFish 10]

 

Think I should pull the trigger? I'm 85% sure I am...

 

TTM have a veneer of credibility, I am not sure why to be honest. Personally I would be wary of parting with money to anyone that steals public domain indicators and sells them as their own. To me this is dubious at best. In my experience businesses that participate in a dubious practice are usually riddled with "dubiousness".

[samhollander 10]

I've gone down this road.I believe you can gain a lot more insight with someone to bounce questions off.I spent a lot to work with a mentor?. 3 moving averages,etc. When i went live I was on my own.That's where I could have used some help.I find it difficult to grasp a lot of Wyckoff,VSA without some guidance. But do your research before you jump in.As everyone knows there are a zillion courses out there[just look at all the testimmonials]I wonder where the 90% losers are?

[imgunn 10]

im not familiar with the courses u mention, i have taken 1 course.. but learnt more from my own self education... reading websites such as this and others.

[samhollander 10]

Find a course that works with a live feed.Static charts are great, looking at history,it's the right edge that makes the money. Find someone that will get you to working live.

[Mavrik00 10]

Hey guys, here is my experience with educators and different courses they offer:

 

Specifics Are Key:

New traders need specific instructions to be successful, and thats because they dont have expereince watching and trading to make decisions that require interpretation.

 

Most educators do not provide the specific instructions that new traders need to follow with mechanical discipline.

 

In other words, the educator may tell you to "get long when you see this happen", but the student really needs to know MORE.

 

Something like this...

 

"when the indicator does this, you need to execute a market order long, 3 ticks above the highest point of this 2-min bar."

 

then go a little further....

 

"if you see THIS happen, dont take the trade, and when you're in the trade, this is how to manage it properly."

 

Traders dont think about the specifics when they fall in love with the idea of a successful trading system, and they dont think to make sure the specifics are included in the "system"

 

you need to know EXACTLY what to do, when to do it, and most importantly, when NOT to do ANYTHING at all.

 

 

Multiple Markets are a must:

the best trading courses work on the basic fundamentals of the markets, and they rarely use special indicators and are even less likely to be automated.

 

the true test of a quality system is its ability to work across multiple markets and multiple time frames.

 

Yes, the # of set-ups or the winning percentages may fluctuate, but a quality system will always work across all markets.

 

If you find a system that only works on 1 market there is a high likelihood that this is nothing more than a recent string of price patterns that are nothing more than a few good months.

 

A good example of this is your common EMA-Cross systems. these look great in 3-4 month increments, but wont work on multiple markets, and will STOP working just as quickly as you can say "I want my money back!"

 

Stick to the fundamentals:

 

All traders use the same 'stuff', and that is...

 

* Price Action

* Chart Patterns

* Momentum

* Volume

* Variations of these

 

the bottom line is that there has been very little NEW improvements on these old technical indicators and for good reason...they work well.

 

dont fall victim to fancy automation and flashy indicators...they do not perform as they are sold.

 

stay with the basic indicators available on any chart package and understand how these basics work....then go from there....save your money on a quality system when you find it...and you need to take your time and find one that is of quality.

 

Hope this helps you guys, let me know if you have questions

 

-Mavrik