Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

walterw

The Holly Grail Vs Optimization

Recommended Posts

Hello dear fellow traders ¡¡

 

I was thinking this weekend as I am preparing a technical update, why do we traders have certain tendency to study in new frontiers of technical analisis ?

 

Is it the look for the Holly Grail ? mmm... or is it that technical optimization is really posible ?

 

First of all let me make clear that the Holly Grail does not exist... you will never find it... and chimps dont drink water with grails, less sacred ones...

 

NOW, optimization DOES EXIST... and this is as true as you can change the way you trade with very simple optimizations...

 

Evolution of a method its posible, it takes time and normally, its funny, but the optimization comes in a simple presentation... too complex things most probably are not too much optimized...

 

The other day I drove on a friends BMW, pure pleasure, very simple presentation of the pannel, not to much buttons, not too much lights, simple presentation but a great optimized piece of automotive engineering ¡¡ now BMW has been optimizing their cars since some time now... lots of years of getting their product optimized, are their cars perfect ? no, not perfect, but yes optimized... same happens with Technical Analisis... can it be perfect ? NEVER.... can it be optimized ? thats for sure...

 

I am a strong beleiver that practical experience is the best teacher in order to produce optimization on Analisis... trading has attached a series of sensations, joys, frustrations, discipline, undiscipline, patience, non patience, etc... all this must observed in the process of optimization...

 

for example, my friends BMW has some nice lights outside on the doors when you aproach it from outside... mmmm maybe some BMW engineers thought thru experience that some times having light when aproaching a car may be very usefull on a dark night... you see... as time goes by, we find new things that could be revisited on our technical methods...

 

Thats why some traders drive on BMW`s (technically speaking) and other ride an old Oldsmovile year 60... you see, it depends specially on your actitude towards accepting what can be optimized...

 

An open mind is needed for this... the right actitude to accept when you are not totally correct on your performance and offcourse you must beleive on the fact that optimization is possible...

 

Are you looking for the Holly Grail ? stop doing so.... better use your time for optimization.... cheers The Chimp.

 

PD: BMW X6 aint that nice ?

x6_wallpaper_02.thumb.jpg.9c88ce3b1a8641d2bf5dc42b01f81a4e.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've posted before, I just think the whole concept of the "Holly Grail" should be disgarded. Its just a poor metaphor for a fruitless path as far as trading research goes.

The biggest danger with the holly grail mindset IMO is that it ignores your opponent. We aren't really trading against eachother here, we are trading against hundreds of millions of dollars in data analysis and infrastructure trying to analize as much data as possible and find the smallest relationships between the data sets.

To me if you want to sharpen the edge of your analysis, the trail has already been cut for you. Its obviously not in throwing 40 indicators all doing basically the same thing, then using the tradestation optimizer to dance through different settings find patterns in the clouds.

The way to do it is store massive amounts of tick data of related instruments and then use the well studied field of data mining algorithms to find non random patterns. The barriers to entry are nothing financially, the software is all there ready to use for free basically. The real barrier to entry to the next level of analysis is that the knowledge and background needed to take advantage of this stuff is substantial. Just because something is hard to do, to write it off as the search for something that doesn't exist, when your literally trading against the thing you don't believe exists is foolish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've posted before, I just think the whole concept of the "Holly Grail" should be disgarded. Its just a poor metaphor for a fruitless path as far as trading research goes.

The biggest danger with the holly grail mindset IMO is that it ignores your opponent. We aren't really trading against eachother here, we are trading against hundreds of millions of dollars in data analysis and infrastructure trying to analize as much data as possible and find the smallest relationships between the data sets.

To me if you want to sharpen the edge of your analysis, the trail has already been cut for you. Its obviously not in throwing 40 indicators all doing basically the same thing, then using the tradestation optimizer to dance through different settings find patterns in the clouds.

The way to do it is store massive amounts of tick data of related instruments and then use the well studied field of data mining algorithms to find non random patterns. The barriers to entry are nothing financially, the software is all there ready to use for free basically. The real barrier to entry to the next level of analysis is that the knowledge and background needed to take advantage of this stuff is substantial. Just because something is hard to do, to write it off as the search for something that doesn't exist, when your literally trading against the thing you don't believe exists is foolish.

 

Are you referring to neural networks ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Are you referring to neural networks ?

 

Well neural networks are one of many well studied data mining algorithms, the perceptron model is one of the oldest. The "holly grail" meme drives me so nuts because I truely believe it short changes us as retail traders as far as what software is brought to market. It just seems odd to me that we can buy software that can plot every absurd idea known to man, ships with every useless indicator ever devised but you can't buy off the shelf retail software that stores the thousands of dollars of TICK data that we are all streaming to our machines daily in a useable format like SQL. You basically have to do it yourself.

I installed some poker software the otherday that installed SQL light for a database to keep track of players betting and it has simple tools for manageing the database. I guess my point is I've never been interested in something and part of online communities that shun technological innovation like retail trading does. Music technology is probly a better analogy. Of course you can still record music with a 4 track recorder but the music world jumped all over the advancing computing power in the 90s like there was no tomarrow to the point that you can do things with an off the shelf computer today that was totally unimaginable 15 years ago for any amount of money.

Retail trading software is basically the same as it was 15 years ago with some minor tweaks. The only guys who have truely embraced technological innovation are the big guys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before one talks about The Holy Grail we need a clear and concise description, can anybody provide that?

 

I can share some of my thoughts in the meantime...

I believe that much of the money spent in algorithm trading is in developing user-friendly interfaces and also in developing methods for smooth and seamless distribution of large orders. I think it is extremely hard to keep as low profile as possible during distribution, the idea is to influence the market at least possible to obtain the best price.

Likewise the hardware storage costs alot of money - storing tick data can be extremely difficult both in hardware and software.

 

My guess would be that an individual can build a trading system and store data at a price around $ 100,000, this would cover 20-25 shares divided into 2 different markets. This is very detailed I know, purely estimations build from my experience. Now we can do some math... try to cover 50.000 different equities spanning 20 different markets - and this is only equities, take forex, options etc. Wuaaaaa what a bill :)

 

I am 100% sure that these things here cost huge amounts of money:

http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/casestudy.aspx?casestudyid=4000002610

Edited by januson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
    • NFLX Netflix stock watch, local support and resistance areas at 838.12 and 880.5 at https://stockconsultant.com/?NFLX
    • Date: 8th April 2025.   Markets Rebound Cautiously as US-China Tariff Tensions Deepen     Global markets staged a tentative recovery on Tuesday following a wave of volatility sparked by escalating trade tensions between the United States and China. The Asia-Pacific region showed signs of stability after a chaotic start to the week—though some pockets remained under pressure. Taiwan’s Taiex dropped 4.4%, dragged lower by losses in tech heavyweight TSMC. The world’s largest chipmaker fell another 4% on Tuesday and has now slumped 13.5% since April 2, when US President Donald Trump first unveiled what he called ‘Liberation Day’ tariffs.   However, broader sentiment across the region turned more positive, with several markets rebounding sharply after Monday’s dramatic sell-offs. Japan’s Nikkei 225 surged over 6% in early trading, rebounding from an 18-month low. South Korea’s Kospi rose marginally, and Australia’s ASX 200 gained 1.9%, driven by strength in mining stocks. Hong Kong’s Hang Seng rose 1.6%, though still far from recovering from Monday’s 13.2% crash—its worst day since the 1997 Asian financial crisis. China’s Shanghai Composite added 0.9%.   In Europe, DAX and FTSE 100 are up more than 1% in opening trade. EU Commission President von der Leyen repeated yesterday that the EU had offered reciprocal zero tariffs on manufactured goods previously and continues to stand by that offer. Others are also trying again to talk to Trump to get some sort of agreement that limits the impact.   Much of the rally appeared to be driven by dip-buying, as well as hopes that the intensifying trade war could still be defused through negotiations.   China Strikes Back: ‘We Will Fight to the End’   Tensions reached a boiling point after Trump threatened to impose an additional 50% tariff on all Chinese imports unless Beijing rolled back its retaliatory measures by April 8. ‘If China does not withdraw its 34% increase above their already long-term trading abuses by tomorrow... the United States will impose additional tariffs on China of 50%,’ Trump declared on social media.   If implemented, the new tariffs would bring total US duties on Chinese goods to a staggering 124%, factoring in the existing 20%, the 34% recently announced, and the proposed 50%.   In response, China’s Ministry of Commerce issued a stern warning, stating: ‘The US threat to escalate tariffs is a mistake on top of a mistake... If the US insists on its own way, China will fight to the end.’ The ministry also called for equal and respectful dialogue, though signs of compromise on either side remain scarce.   Beijing acted quickly to contain a market fallout. State funds intervened to support equities, and the People’s Bank of China set the yuan fixing at its weakest level since September 2023 to boost export competitiveness. Additionally, five-year interest rate swaps in China fell to their lowest levels since 2020, indicating potential for further monetary easing.   Trump Talks Tough on EU Too   Trump’s hardline approach extended beyond China. Speaking at a press conference, he rejected the European Union’s offer to eliminate tariffs on cars and industrial goods, accusing the bloc of ‘being very bad to us.’ He insisted that Europe would need to source its energy from the US, claiming the US could ‘knock off $350 billion in one week.’   The EU, meanwhile, backed away from a proposed 50% retaliatory tariff on American whiskey, opting instead for 25% duties on selected US goods in response to Trump’s steel and aluminium tariffs.     Volatile Wall Street Adds to the Drama   Wall Street experienced wild swings on Monday as investors processed the rapidly evolving trade conflict. The S&P 500 briefly fell 4.7% before rebounding 3.4%, nearly erasing its losses in what could have been its biggest one-day jump in years—if it had held. The Dow Jones Industrial Average sank by as much as 1,700 points early in the day but later climbed nearly 900 points before closing 349 points lower, down 0.9%. The Nasdaq ended up 0.1%.   The brief rally was fueled by a false rumour that Trump was considering a 90-day pause on tariffs—rumours that the White House quickly labelled ‘fake news.’ The market's sharp reaction underscored how desperate investors are for any sign that tensions might ease.   Oil Markets in Focus: Goldman Sachs Revises Forecasts   Crude prices also reflected the uncertainty, with US crude briefly dipping below $60 per barrel for the first time since 2021. As of early Tuesday, Brent crude was trading at $64.72, while WTI hovered around $61.26.   Goldman Sachs, in a note dated April 7, lowered its average price forecasts for Brent and WTI through 2025 and 2026, citing mounting recession risks and the potential for higher-than-expected supply from OPEC+.       Under a base-case scenario where the US avoids a recession and tariffs are reduced significantly before the April 9 implementation date, Goldman sees Brent at $62 per barrel and WTI at $58 by December 2025. These figures fall further to $55 and $51, respectively, by the end of 2026. This outlook also assumes moderate output increases from eight OPEC+ countries, with incremental boosts of 130,000–140,000 barrels per day in June and July.   However, should the US slip into a typical recession and OPEC production aligns with the bank’s baseline assumptions, Brent could retreat to $58 by the end of this year and to $50 by December 2026.   In a more bearish scenario involving a global GDP slowdown and no change to OPEC+ output levels, Brent prices might fall to $54 by year-end and $45 by late 2026. The most extreme projection—based on a simultaneous economic downturn and a full reversal of OPEC+ production cuts—would see Brent plunge to below $40 per barrel by the end of 2026.   Goldman noted that oil prices could outperform forecasts significantly if there was a dramatic shift in tariff policy and a surprise in global demand recovery.   Cautious Optimism, But Warnings Persist   With both Washington and Beijing showing no signs of backing down, markets are likely to remain volatile in the days ahead. Investors now turn their attention to upcoming trade meetings and policy decisions, hoping for clarity in what has become one of the most unpredictable trading environments in recent years.   Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business.   Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar.   Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding of how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE!   Click HERE to READ more Market news.   Andria Pichidi HFMarkets   Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in Leveraged Products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • CVNA Carvana stock watch, rebound to 166.56 support area at https://stockconsultant.com/?CVNA
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.