Trading The Wyckoff Way

[DbPhoenix 42]

Additionally, those who'd rather not go through 130 posts in order to get an overview of what the thread is all about can go here for a 13-post quickie.

[Susana 10]

That's pretty much the same thing you said six months ago, and my reply is pretty much the same as well, except that the trading ranges are different.

 

If this makes no sense to you, perhaps Market Profile would strike a chord.

 

Shoot, I completely forgot I had commented the same thing in the past.

 

My apologies, feel like a dork.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Susana

[jeffh0821 10]

Unfortunately this thread has seemed to stall, but I'm curious why PnF charting is being discussed within the context of Wycoff?

 

PnF charting specifically removes all factors (including volume) from consideration and focuses on price action alone. Wycoff, in my limited understanding of his teachings, was advocating price action + volume as a way to understand the relationship between supply and demand in a particular instrument.

 

How do you perceive PnF charting applies to Wycoff's teachings and, more specifically, how could we use PnF charting to trade on Wycoff's ideas?

 

- Jeff

[DbPhoenix 42]

Unfortunately this thread has seemed to stall, but I'm curious why PnF charting is being discussed within the context of Wycoff?

 

PnF charting specifically removes all factors (including volume) from consideration and focuses on price action alone. Wycoff, in my limited understanding of his teachings, was advocating price action + volume as a way to understand the relationship between supply and demand in a particular instrument.

 

How do you perceive PnF charting applies to Wycoff's teachings and, more specifically, how could we use PnF charting to trade on Wycoff's ideas?

 

- Jeff

 

Wyckoff used PnF extensively in both intraday and interday trading. Have you looked through the Daytrader's Bible posted to the Introduction stickie, or the pdfs attached to the first post of this thread? Those are a good place to start.

[jeffh0821 10]

DbPhoenix,

 

Thanks, I did not look at the Daytrader's Bible but will peruse it. I have looked at the charts posted but I noted the regular line and candle charts with volume indicators are also on those charts.

 

I think my hangup is many PnF'ers are pure price action advocates. See support and resistance from price action only and trade accordingly. I am having a difficult time in my mind rationalizing that camp with the Wycoff camp.

 

Thanks for the insight...

[DbPhoenix 42]

I think my hangup is many PnF'ers are pure price action advocates. See support and resistance from price action only and trade accordingly. I am having a difficult time in my mind rationalizing that camp with the Wycoff camp.

Daily Vertical Charts are made to record the daily movements and volume of the averages, or groups or individual stocks. By the use of these charts, we are better able to discern accumulation, distribution and other phases of manipulative (controlled) or uncontrolled moves in the market. By condensing them into weekly and monthly vertical charts we are able to visualize the long time trend and to keep our perspective of the long range moves. However, the daily chart is most generally used because of its greater sensitivity and immediate historical value. In other words, weekly and monthly vertical charts aid us to judge the markets present position in relation to the general trend, that is, the major bull and bear cycles; but daily charts are more effective for timing commitments advantageously and for recognizing turning points.

 

Figure Charts are equally valuable, but it is best to use these in combination with vertical charts, so that all obtainable deductions may be made therefrom. Figure charts take no account of fractions, nor do they take account of time or volume. They represent the movement of a stock from one full figure to the next full figure above or below, such as from 35 to 36 or 34. They are of great value in estimating the probable extent of supply and demand and the points of resistance and support.

 

RDW

[gooni 10]

This may be a silly question, but I've only just started thinking about it. What happens to S/R levels on contract rollover?

 

I've been predominantly using the eSignal continuous contract symbols (ES #F, NQ #F etc) to determine S/R. But are the price levels for the continuous contract the same as those of the front (traded) contract? What does everyone here do?

[tune 10]

Interesting to note that OIL has just had the most active day ever.

 

[atto 20]

USO did the same thing. In fact, this while area (pretty much all of December so far) has been a very high volume area. Does this mean it's a bottom? Not necessarily, but it does mean to watch closely. For our completely hypothetical short, I'd place some stops at $40-$41ish.

 

[erierambler 10]

Db,

Chart of NQ attached. Would you say that since Nov.21 price action represents a shortening of the upward thrust?

erie

 

 

[DbPhoenix 42]

It's debatable. Depends in part on whether you consider the upmove at the end of November to be a swing, or whether -- because of the sideways movement at the beginning of December -- you consider the entire move from late November to mid-December to be one move.

 

Either way, the trendline has clearly been broken, and given the angle and extent of the downmove, a pause is not unreasonable. But, as you know, a change in trend is not a reversal.

 

[gooni 10]

This may be a silly question, but I've only just started thinking about it. What happens to S/R levels on contract rollover?

 

I've been predominantly using the eSignal continuous contract symbols (ES #F, NQ #F etc) to determine S/R. But are the price levels for the continuous contract the same as those of the front (traded) contract? What does everyone here do?

Any takers? I'm having a mental blank during the holiday season.

[tune 10]

Yes, and Oil Service HOLDR might be worth a watch too. Has held well recently.

 

[imahippi 10]

Db

I've thought about this since looking at the chart yesterday.

You write that one should have taken the short and I can't help but look at those the pot support at 9:37ish with nice vol. Then more vol on push up and again $ stops at 9:49 ish and a hrl at 10:10. I would have gone long there? Would you have waited those out and if yes why? Or would you have just realized you were on the wrong side at the Demand line break and what looked to be a big vol. buying climax?

[imahippi 10]

sorry I didn't edit my post and see some glaring grammatical errors:doh:

[DbPhoenix 42]

Db

I've thought about this since looking at the chart yesterday.

You write that one should have taken the short and I can't help but look at those the pot support at 9:37ish with nice vol. Then more vol on push up and again $ stops at 9:49 ish and a hrl at 10:10. I would have gone long there? Would you have waited those out and if yes why? Or would you have just realized you were on the wrong side at the Demand line break and what looked to be a big vol. buying climax?

 

My most recent post was last May. What chart are you referring to?

[DbPhoenix 42]

If you're defining S/R as defined here, what matters are the levels and zones. These may shift vertically after rollover, but they themselves won't change. Price in and of itself is relevant on insofar as it relates to these levels and zones.

[imahippi 10]

It is the chart from post #2.

Your comment re taking the short like "no duh" just made me wonder what I am missing as I would have been watching $ hit 1986ish on vol for pot support at aprox 9:37. Then again it hits that zone at 9:48-49 with a good vol bounce. So two bounces off pot support. I would have taken that trade and been reassured by the hrl at 10:10ish.

I would hopefully have gotten out at the DL break after the big climax blow up. Was there something about this first trade that would have warned you not to even bother?

thats what i was wondering about

[DbPhoenix 42]

Resistance was at 2000. Price failed in its attempt to hold above that level and made a lower high at 2000 after breaking the demand line. If long, there's no reason to remain so.

[imahippi 10]

aha! Thanks Db. For some reason I read the whole thread and got a lot from it and everything was so clear and then that chart threw me off. I must look retarded!!

I am not.

I think I just get overload after hours of reading and then fail to make obvious connections. :crap:

[tlfx 10]

This thread is great.

 

Thanks a lot!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[erierambler 10]

With respect to the oil commodity, some people are participating here:

 

[Susana 10]

Looks like a falling knife with zero buying interest.

[atto 20]

Looks like a falling knife with zero buying interest.

I disagree, there's actually quite a lot (check the volume at price I threw on). There's also a good deal of selling interest, and the sellers are still stronger (hence the continued downtrend). We'll see how it pans out.

[Susana 10]

Trying to catch a bottom in a bear market is one of the hardest calls in trading. Until Oil can go back into convincing last resistance to become support I'm staying out of the long side, much safer to just short last support, chances are it will then be resistance.

 

Regarding volume, for every buyer there is a seller.