Feltontrading Method

[Paul-TC 10]

unless Mit is trying to imply that an educator should back his students with capital and take a percentage of their profits while/as he teaches them their methods, as a measure to judge.......not necessarily a new idea but some would say harsh but fair.

 

Yes - I think that what Mit was implying is open to interpretation. Some educators do choose the route you describe of backing their traders with their own money - but then they're called prop shops. There are even a few hedge funds that operate that way.

 

I don't know if the way Dennis constructed his 'bet' should be the benchmark for the way 'educators' should operate - but it is food for thought.

 

One glaring difference is that Dennis was totally confident in his method and of his ability to transfer the necessary skills to others.

 

Compare that with the current plethora of so-called 'educators': Deep-down, they don't have the same level of confidence in either their method and/or their ability to empower others to use it profitably any more than they have been able to.

 

For them, the game/goal changes from sincerely monitoring how successful their students become as a result of the training (as Dennis did) - to developing as much 'Shopping Channel schtick' to convince as many, naive newbies as possible, of their methods (and their own, alleged) success trading it.

 

Of course, if there hasn't been any such success (as is always the case in my experience), their game/goal must also include developing a myriad of excuses and plausible deniability for not providing evidence when asked - and of course, the obligatory altruistic, good ol' boy persona.

 

The main difference is that Dennis was genuinely interested in whether his Turtles succeeded whereas the trading 'course' hucksters must, by definition, feign such genuine interest.

 

How well this act of 'caring' is performed directly determines how much of the snake-oil they will be able to sell. If one could benchmark sincerity, then I agree: the Turtle experiment should be the gold standard. However, like the old adage about Hollywood, the world of the Trading course snake oil salesman also has 'sincerity' as the key. If you can fake that, you've got it made.

 

From a purely academic standpoint, Mighty Mouse is correct. There is more to the Turtle story than meets the eye or what was posted about it above.

 

First, there were more than 14. I believe that there were 23. More importantly, not all of them were successful - which raises the question: Did Dennis win or lose the bet?

 

After all, his claim was that 'anyone' could be taught how to trade. Some failed. So, does that mean that not everyone can be taught - or that some peole might need more/different attention? I guess we'll never know if the failures could have been 'turned around' 'eventually'.

 

It is also worth pointing out that the method itself (which is/was very mechanical) failed spectacularly soon after 1986. Richard Dennis has also blown at least two accounts - most notably in 1987 and more recently in 2000 after which he had to close his fund.

 

A lesson to us all - even the Legends don't always follow their own rules :helloooo:

[MightyMouse 12]

I dont think he needed to verify statements when he was supplying the money, the education and the system. Equally so, I think that given who he was at the time, verification was probably not necessary.....you on the other hand charge money for your services, and verification has never been asked for your help that might be offered at TL, it was suggested that it would be a good due diligence requirement before paying for any vendors services.

 

You are right it might have been the right place and time and even though it was a static system, and it could far more easily be explained than a discretionary one, even it proved that a system given to people would not necessarily make them all money even though it also proved that trading could be taught to some people.

 

 

 

It seems that you have spent your whole time here defending your services, promoting yourself and threatening to leave as opposed to actually helping. Most of your comments seem to revolve around these, why not offer advice without all the promotion and not mention you are a vendor - resign and sign on as a new name and see if you can help others for free as you say you want to - without the distractions of promotion, and defending. .....

 

I think what Dennis mostly proved is that trading could be automated. He did find people who were able to robotically use a system that took money from the market. As most note, the same system doesn't yield the same results. If those traders are still trading then, I would argue that he in fact found traders who knew how to trade in spite of his system. What is unknown is how closely he followed the rules of his system to achieve the gains that he did.

 

The legend of Richard Dennis seems to stop at 200 million. The untold portion is that the same skills that helped him achieve those gains, also wiped him out. He was in the right place at the right time and didn't realize the impact that luck had on his results. In time, all gamblers break even.

[Roger Felton 10]

=Originally Posted by SIUYA »

 

 

It seems that you have spent your whole time here defending your services, promoting yourself and threatening to leave as opposed to actually helping. Most of your comments seem to revolve around these, why not offer advice without all the promotion and not mention you are a vendor - resign and sign on as a new name and see if you can help others for free as you say you want to - without the distractions of promotion, and defending. ..... .

 

Believe me, SIUYA, nobody would appreciate not having to defend themselves here more than me. I'm sorry if you took that as "promoting". I am so tired of the "snake oil", "fake caring", "shark", "charlatan", etc. comments I really don't want to log in here anymore. I actually think the negativity here is worse than at Elite Trader.

 

I have a ton of things to share including a new chart type I just completed yesterday that is vastly superior to anything I (and many other professional traders) have ever seen. Also have about a dozen indicators that are highly effective in filtering entries for strength / weakness. Sharing is what I've wanted to do here from the get go. But the vile unfounded accusations and personal attacks just won't stop....ever.

 

Sure takes the fun out of contributing and helping others, ya know.

[SIUYA 11]

I notice a post of mine that has been quoted by a few others has been deleted/moderated....if this is the state of TL moderation then I am out of here.:missy::missy:

 

I think roger (from his last post ) took it in the light it was meant to be, a suggestion to get rid of all rubbish so that he can help others as he wants....

and Roger, I dont view defending and promoting together - I think they are seperate, and unfortunately you maybe gave the impression that you were promoting....and now you are defending......at least you could keep that in this thread, and help others in other threads.

[Roger Felton 10]

I notice a post of mine that has been quoted by a few others has been deleted/moderated....if this is the state of TL moderation then I am out of here.:missy::missy:

 

I think roger (from his last post ) took it in the light it was meant to be, a suggestion to get rid of all rubbish so that he can help others as he wants....

and Roger, I dont view defending and promoting together - I think they are seperate, and unfortunately you maybe gave the impression that you were promoting....and now you are defending......at least you could keep that in this thread, and help others in other threads.

 

You're absolutely right, SIUYA. The rubbish does need to go.

 

Hey, the Supreme Bars are mostly done. Have a couple of tasks left...put in the "Rockets" and the "S" trades...but it's looking pretty good. Notice the OHLC info is all there and the entry signals are firing exactly where they should here in gold. I know the method doesn't interest you but thought you might like taking a look at the chart anyway ...have a super weekend.

[Paul-TC 10]

The truth is a few traders were in the right place at the right time with the right system in the right market. Very few, if any, traders following that system are making any money today. Like all static systems, it died.

 

How that system is performing now is unimportant. Dennis never made any claims about how long his system would work. The bet was addressing a completely different question. You wouldn't claim (much less guarantee) that your method will work for the next 30-40 years - would you?

 

For the prurposes of this discussion, the important aspect of the experiment is that Dennis had enough integrity to put his own skin in the game to 'prove' that, not only would his method work but that he was capable of making any student profitable trading it.

 

No one asked him to provide audited records of his past performance because no one needed to. Only he could lose financially from the trades if either he proved to be a fraud or if his method subsequently sucked.

 

See any comparison to your operation? No - neither do I.

 

But it is interesting that Dennis was the type of individual who wanted to help others and let them keep their wallets in their pocket. Thank God he didn't come to this forum to find his Turtles and help people. You guys would have blindsided him. I know from personal experience.

 

It's more than a bit of stretch to equate anything you do to what Dennis did - isn't it?

 

To begin with, he never suggested that he was doing this experiment to 'help' others. It was made clear from the outset that it was to prove a point/win a bet. Suggesting that it was anything more is just a distortion employed by you to try and drag him into your own self-delusion of being the victimized altruist.

 

Would anyone really have blindsided him as you claim (or is it 'hope'?).

 

I'm pretty certain that no one would have. Even after all these years, has anyone ever accused him of making false claims about his Turtle offer or that his experiment/bet was a scam? To the best of my knowledge, it has never happened.

 

So, the differences between the two of you seem to far outweigh any small, insignificant similarities.

 

Here's the original ad that Dennis placed in the New York Times.

Richard Dennis Turtle Want Ad

 

Have you ever placed a similar ad, anywhere, offering to entirely fund novice traders as they learn your method and pay them "a percentage of trading profits" allowing "a small draw" periodically?

 

I thought not - and we both know you never will.

 

So, apart from your wishful thinking that Dennis would have received as much bad press as you do, I fail to see any comparison.

[SIUYA 11]

You're absolutely right, SIUYA. The rubbish does need to go.

 

Hey, the Supreme Bars are mostly done. Have a couple of tasks left...put in the "Rockets" and the "S" trades...but it's looking pretty good. Notice the OHLC info is all there and the entry signals are firing exactly where they should here in gold. I know the method doesn't interest you but thought you might like taking a look at the chart anyway ...have a super weekend.

 

Roger,.....if you are selling this then and posting it here I think you would find this is seen as a promotion :doh: and constitutes part of the rubbish,

and that gosu comments (while harsh ) are valid......

[MadMarketScientist 11]

Roger,.....if you are selling this then and posting it here I think you would find this is seen as a promotion :doh: and constitutes part of the rubbish,

and that gosu comments (while harsh ) are valid......

 

Lets all get on the same page. People can post charts and talk about their methods all they want. We draw the line when they are promoting the sale of it in the forums. Roger did nothing wrong posting that chart so lets all just relax and not jump on the guy so quickly. Now if he starts trying to sell it on the forums we will moderate and take appropriate steps.

 

Here is my take: it should be a huge red flag for anyone that Roger wont provide statements. We dont need to be the guardians of people who know this and dont care. Lets not beat a dead horse.

 

But unfortunately, Roger is right about the negativity

 

Thx

MMS

[Roger Felton 10]

Lets all get on the same page. People can post charts and talk about their methods all they want. We draw the line when they are promoting the sale of it in the forums. Roger did nothing wrong posting that chart so lets all just relax and not jump on the guy so quickly. Now if he starts trying to sell it on the forums we will moderate and take appropriate steps.

 

Here is my take: it should be a huge red flag for anyone that Roger wont provide statements. We dont need to be the guardians of people who know this and dont care. Lets not beat a dead horse.

 

But unfortunately, Roger is right about the negativity

 

Thx

MMS

 

If I were here at TL to sell a trading course, I would fully understand someone being skeptical and wanting to see statements. I am here as Roger Felton, not Felton Trading. I am here as a fellow TL forum member who happens to be a trading educator (vendor). Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that we are all here to help and contribute to each other on a FREE and open basis. I have indicators, chart revelations, and trading knowledge to share but I have to post statements first??

 

I missed the part in the TL rules that said vendor/members were requested to do this. Is this a new policy aimed at educators? I have clearly stated that I will not sell any of my business offerings to any TL member, yet I still seem held to a different standard than anyone else here.

 

I've been here 3 years and haven't found a friendly soul here yet. Does anyone really think I want to try to pull clients from this pool?

 

Can someone please explain the rationale because it makes no sense. To expect me to reveal personal financial information to a group of individuals whom I will never have any business dealings with is an absurd request. In fact, it sounds discriminatory and certainly be the ultimate form of self-promotion.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Roger Felton

[MadMarketScientist 11]

but I have to post statements first??

 

No I was referring to the previous discussion with SUIYA about why you don't provide statements in your course. SUIYA posted his review and I think we've come to a conclusion on what he thinks of your course. I hope you can take the feedback constructively.

 

But as far as sharing on TL, NO ONE has to post statements here, that is ridiculous. So if you have something to contribute please start a new thread and do so.

 

thx

MMS

[Roger Felton 10]

No I was referring to the previous discussion with SUIYA about why you don't provide statements in your course. SUIYA posted his review and I think we've come to a conclusion on what he thinks of your course. I hope you can take the feedback constructively.

 

But as far as sharing on TL, NO ONE has to post statements here, that is ridiculous. So if you have something to contribute please start a new thread and do so.

 

thx

MMS

 

Yes, I appreciate all feedback. In this business, nobody is ever going to please everyone. But I thanked SUIYA for his time and effort.

 

I am sorry that he took offense at the chart I posted. It was intended as a small example of what I'm working on and able to share when complete. I had no idea he'd get angry about it. My apologies.

[fast 10]

So, why do I take the time to set the record straight? I wish the hell I knew.

Because you care!

 

 

 

..

[Paul-TC 10]

Here is my take: it should be a huge red flag for anyone that Roger wont provide statements. We dont need to be the guardians of people who know this and dont care. Lets not beat a dead horse.

 

But unfortunately, Roger is right about the negativity

 

Thx

MMS

 

I've seen comments highlighting the fact that Roger's refusal to provide statements is without legitimate reason and therefore a red flag - just has you have now also done.

I don't think anyone was asking for him to post them on here either. Making them available to prospective students when asked was the issue and I don't think anyone cares how he chooses to do that e.g. in private emails, snail mail, via public forums or on his website. However, I don't think it necessarily follows that those posts/posters were seeking to be guardians of anyone.

 

Their comments were directed at the only person who doesn't see it as a red flag - and that's Roger. His stubborness on the subject (and I think everyone knows why) is akin to the grandmother who demands to know why everyone else in the marching band is out of step with her little Johnny!

 

As for negativity, I really can't think of anything more negative for traders, trading and discussions in general than refusing to accept when you're clearly wrong!

[SIUYA 11]

This is the last thing I have to say on the subject....... SIUYA

[onesmith 10]

I had a post deleted from this topic (for allegedly being off topic). It named Roger Felton, FeltonTrading, RF or FT six times within it's 105 total words. Discussion with managment confirmed it was not a personal attack.

 

I prefer this be my last post to this subject (but I will adapt to information as the future becomes the present).

[gosu 10]

Here's my feedback:

 

There is too much censoring and deleting of posts on this site. I'm not irked at all by the deleting of posts that I consider rather mild. I accept that as the prerogative of the owner to run the place to his standards and taste.

 

However, I come from the view that sometimes trading personal insults is a necessary part of communicating, and there are some people who simply cannot be communicated with but only ridiculed. Apparently, that view is not condoned here.

 

Therefore, I will exercise my prerogative as a free user and move on from this site. There are no hard feelings whatsoever, and my decision is based on the fact that time is valuable and limiting myself to just the one trading message board I started with is probably a good thing.

 

Cheers.

[MadMarketScientist 11]

Well that's great,'cos we can afford to have quality posters like gosu leave and have the void filled with people like felton can't we folks?

 

From his last post, gosu is unhappy with the level of moderation. He thinks we should allow personal insults and members to ridicule each other. But that is not the type of forum we want at TL. I hope gosu reconsiders but that is a rule we are non-negotiable about.

 

thx

MMS

[Paul-TC 10]

From his last post, gosu is unhappy with the level of moderation. He thinks we should allow personal insults and members to ridicule each other. But that is not the type of forum we want at TL. I hope gosu reconsiders but that is a rule we are non-negotiable about.

 

thx

MMS

 

Where the line is drawn in determining what constitutes an unreasonable personal attack is down to the moderators - even if we disagree.

 

However, if the following is true........

 

I had a post deleted from this topic (for allegedly being off topic). It named Roger Felton, FeltonTrading, RF or FT six times within it's 105 total words. Discussion with managment confirmed it was not a personal attack.

I prefer this be my last post to this subject (but I will adapt to information as the future becomes the present).

 

... then that's disturbing, suggesting that something else may be in play here. As a result, your denial (below) to MightyMouse's assessment that you're protecting someone who is clearly on here 'selling' - will start to ring very hollow for some people.

 

And let's make absolutely no bones about it. He is on here selling, albeit in a very sly and surreptitious manner. If you can't see that, then you're as guilty of being blind to some red flags as he is.

 

 

 

Quote:Originally Posted by MightyMouse »

So, if I made a comment to roger about his incessant promotion on this very thread which he does under your nose since he has manipulated you into protecting him, he will whine to you and you will delete my post even though it is a post that others likely agree with and share a similar sentiment. This is BS!

 

I am not protecting him - if you recall my previous post this subject came up because of an entirely different thread - the TA Debunked one. Roger has been dealt with - he will moderated more closely. All his advertisements have been removed.

 

MMS

[SIUYA 11]

It was intended as a small example of what I'm working on and able to share when complete.

 

I look forward to you sharing it with the community.

[wrbtrader 10]

From his last post, gosu is unhappy with the level of moderation. He thinks we should allow personal insults and members to ridicule each other. But that is not the type of forum we want at TL. I hope gosu reconsiders but that is a rule we are non-negotiable about.

 

thx

MMS

 

MMS, out of curiosity, when a thread continues in that direction (members slinging personal insults and ridiculing other members) as off-topic...wouldn't it be better to close the thread instead of spending time editing/moderating the thread which is what gets members upset when they see their messages edited or deleted.

 

My point, I've been a member of other popular forums since their birth (different user name) along with once being a moderator myself of one well known forum...my experience is that when problematic threads are closed...members tend to understand (acceptable) instead of getting upset when their messages are edited or deleted. Also, those that support those types of members that think its OK to mudsling personal attacks, insults and the likes in a bully or street gang like mentality, they too react more positive when problem threads are closed instead of having their messages edited or deleted.

 

P.S. These problems, more often occurs when members interact directly with these types of members that engage in personal attacks, insults, ridicule instead of just ignoring these types of members. Ignoring = ignore their threads, don't respond to their message posts along with putting them on the ignore list. Thus, it takes two to tangle and some members like Roger needs to just learn how to ignore especially if he's not here to look for clients because the process of defending the service will result into indirectly promoting/advertising the service. Therefore, its a vicious circle.

Edited July 1, 2012 by wrbtrader

[MightyMouse 12]

I like MMS's decision process. He seems to be a good deliberator. I think we should support MMS to run for president of the United States because he would be good at taking everyone's view and making decisions that would benefit all of us. I certainly think that he would do a much better job at making those decisions that our current president. Unfortunately, there isn't time enough to get MMS positioned for the 2012 elections. He won't admit that he enjoyed this brief ego boost. It's also unfortunate that MMS will make a decision to delete this irrelevant, off topic post when he reads this sentence.

[TheDude 10]

I sat in his real time trading room for a few days .....

 

I am just a unsuccessful trader who has tried various methods over the past 6 years in the quest of becoming a consistent $100 per day profit trader. If you PM me I can tell you other methods I have tried unsuccessfully. Everyone always says look at the charts. Well I would love to find a real time trading room with voice and charts where the trader calls out trades in real time based on the chart and walks you through the logic of what the chart is telling you at that time and why you are going long or short. I understand not every trade will work, it would just be a great educational experience.....

 

Best of luck and if you end up taking a course come back and tell us the truth about it. We can eliminate the fraud people by exposing them.

 

Has anyone found a profitable trading:

Room?

Book?

System?

 

No, they haven't. Of course not. Why? Because they are all based on the same old rubbish.

 

These 'methods' may last during back testing, possible even for the first few weeks, but after that, the market cycle changes.

 

The idea of having a 'method' that work all the time is totally nonsensical.

 

The only way of making money is through understanding and flexibility. Knowing what needs to be done when the time is right under the current market context.

 

The only other alternative is playing the numbers with a trend following method. However returns will never be extraordinary - maybe 20% PA in a good year. Thats fine if you have an account of $1mm+. Most traders here will need more that I feel. They need to make 100% on their accounts of typically less than $100k (which is very viable - so long as you can trade of course!)

[steve46 12]

Interesting

 

with respect to the question about finding a method or room that is profitable, the answer is not going to be welcomed...first it is not "the method" or even "the room" that is going to make a person profitable....unfortunately for most of you, it is a number of other characteristics, most of which people aren't " born with, but need to learn to incorporate in their personality....among them are discipline, focus, mature experience and judgement. Also one needs to have internalized a sense of adult self esteem. By "adult self esteem" we mean a sense of what is real and the ability to subordinate immediate personal "wants" while working on a future goal. If one possess those qualities, there are a number of systematic approaches that work pretty well. If we are talking about trading the S&P Futures for example, currently most skilled participants are using a mix of both trend following (longer time frame) and momentum based (shorter time frame) systems with good result.

 

with respect to a systematic approach or "room" I can only relate to my own system (one that was published here quite a while ago. In that approach I outlined how large institutions use time based goals to move money in and out of the markets. Last year for instance the longer time frame goal was 1363 (approximately)....participants knew this goal was in play fairly early in the year and we traded around that using both outright positions and options (for the longer term players). If you took this seriously you did both (trading around the open, high and close of each time period from daily, to weekly to monthly to quarterly). and of course markets move up AND down but I don;'t have the time (or inclination) to provide a comprehensive outline of my system here.

 

Now some will suggest that in that thread, there wasn't enough detail on which to base a systematic approach, nevertheless, some folks took that info and ran with it, and had a decent year...I taught two small classes (8 students total) and like any approach where you have a diverse student body, some did well, some did poorly and for some it is a work in progress. Since all of them are either members or read my work here (and aren't posting complaints) it is assumed that (at the very least) they received value for their money (I charged them $200/mo...and this brings me to my final point.

 

I think there are ways of screening for participants who are most likely to be successful in any endeavor...in future if I decide to teach again, the screening process will be weighted so that I can find folks who are most likely to benefit from my approach to teaching. Unfortunately everywhere I look, including Mr. Felton's "room"...if you have a checkbook, you're in...to me that signals that the business's profitabilty takes a higher priority than the student's success. I think that is fine, but not a value that I want to embrace.

[MadMarketScientist 11]

He won't admit that he enjoyed this brief ego boost.

 

No - moderating this thread is not something I enjoy!

 

MMS

[MadMarketScientist 11]

MMS, out of curiosity, when a thread continues in that direction (members slinging personal insults and ridiculing other members) as off-topic...wouldn't it be better to close the thread instead of spending time editing/moderating the thread which is what gets members upset when they see their messages edited or deleted.

 

Probably yes. But I am an optimist by nature and I always hope everyone can just get along!

 

MMS