Feltontrading Method

[Roger Felton 10]

I am with MM on this....if some one was doing proper due dilligence on a trader who educates then they should be able to ask for and provided with statements. (of course these can be faked, but at least a lot of the time they can also get verified if you really wanted to - not saying anyone in particular does))

 

While yes we can all agree if you cant profitably SIM trade first, dont do it with real money....everyones story i know of usually points out that SIM trading is over optimistic and represents a better view of the real results tat you can expect.

 

If this is true what you appear to be saying here Roger is that your SIM trading is worse than your real life trading?

You will show people SIM trades but not real trades so as not to get their expectations up?

 

This does not make sense unless your SIM trading is worse than your real life trading.

 

As a general rule, I recommend traders take at least 30% off of their sim results for a realistic idea of how live trading should go. From a purely mechanical standpoint, I see virtually no difference in my sim trading from live in NinjaTrader. It is an exceptional platform. The added difficulty in live account trading comes from the stress of human emotions, mostly.

 

While, for most traders, there is little stress involved in sim trading, my situation is quite different. As a moderator with many student-traders following my sim trades in their live account executions, emotionally I find that to be much more difficult than simply trading my live account. Most traders have only a one-sided view of sim trading and have never had to perform well on a daily basis with a large group of traders observing their every move...and were dependent on their trainer to make the right decisions.

 

Whenever non-student traders whine about the fact that I trade sim when training in the room, it is due to ignorance of how difficult that actually is. Finding, executing, managing and exiting good profitable trades while moderating, teaching, drawing and answering questions in a trading room is an exceptionally difficult task....sim or otherwise.

 

So, for me, yeah...sim trading is harder than trading my live account. Absolutely.

[DbPhoenix 42]

As requested, I did attend the free trading room (I would even encourage others to do so if they want), I hope my review is seen as nothing more than my personal review. As far as i am concerned there is nothing to argue about here as its my own subjective opinion. period. However if any one has other questions about my thoughts feel free to post.

 

Since this thread goes on and on, and may go on and on into the unforeseeable future, I have a question. You may already have provided the answer. If so, my apologies. But I and possibly others require a little verification.

 

When in this room, are you seeing the charts and the trading platform that Felton is using? By that I don't mean that one is using one's own chart of whatever that just happens to be the same chart but that one is seeing the very chart that Felton is using to trade, along with whatever trading platform he's using so that one can see his exact trade entry transmissions at the instant that he makes them? Or is it the usual "took a trade here", "exited the trade there"?

 

If I'm not explaining this clearly enough, I'll give it another shot. But it appears that Felton is explaining what he's doing rather than allowing students to SEE what he's doing on his own platform. Correct?

 

Db

[Roger Felton 10]

Roger, no one is asking for your financial statements like the IRS.

 

Bernie Maddoff supplied all the documentation in the world for some and look what happened there.

It is also not an invasion of privacy when you make a claim, base a business on it and dont provide evidence of that. Hedge fund managers are generally taken a lot more seriously if they prove they have skin in the game - just saying you do and not backing it up is a red flag. (this may be on a different scale but whats the difference?)

 

The point is the same - if an educator says they trade in real life and then only ever show SIM results or trading, I think that counts for a lot.

 

As an educator and with many years experience I think you must realise that people do approach the two differently.....

(swing a bat, a club, a racket while practising is one thing, in the real game its a different thing)

 

Look .....I dont have a problem if an educator just teaches, I think that is fine, but if they say they trade live then asking for live results is entirely appropriate and fair.

 

Maybe we can agree to disagree but I view it as a red flag.

 

We'll just have to disagree. If I were managing a fund, then traders would have every right to full disclosure of that fund and how I was running it. But, if someone is teaching a Welding Class, for instance, and says he keeps in practice by doing weekend welding jobs, would I have any right to demand that he provide me with copies of his paychecks? Is he obligated in any way to disclose to his prospective students the income he derives from outside welding jobs that he does? Hell no and it's absurd to think otherwise.

 

Additionally, the problem with statements is that they don't't accomplish anything useful beyond maybe satisfying someone's nosy curiosity. Trading statements do not insure or, in any way, make anyone a better trader or speed up the learning curve. They can, however, easily create a false expectation that can be very damaging. Trading statement requests are a red flag to me of a "holy grail" seeker. At the very least, someone who doesn't know how to properly evaluate a trading system or the ability of an instructor to teach it. These type of traders are usually unteachable.

 

And, yes, statements can be faked and often are. To be meaningful, you would need continuous audited statements going back many years. You would then need to find a way to determine if the statements actually represented the results of trading the system that was being taught. That's very difficult to do and accomplish nothing as far as your success is concerned.

 

Personally, I'd rather watch someone trade...with no time limit on how long I could observe and ask lots of questions to determine. You can't fake that.

 

So, let's just disagree. Perhaps, over time, after you've poured over enough statements and watched tons of live trades taken but still get no personal trading improvement, maybe you can begin to consider there just might be a better way.

[Roger Felton 10]

Since this thread goes on and on, and may go on and on into the unforeseeable future, I have a question. You may already have provided the answer. If so, my apologies. But I and possibly others require a little verification.

 

When in this room, are you seeing the charts and the trading platform that Felton is using? By that I don't mean that one is using one's own chart of whatever that just happens to be the same chart but that one is seeing the very chart that Felton is using to trade, along with whatever trading platform he's using so that one can see his exact trade entry transmissions at the instant that he makes them? Or is it the usual "took a trade here", "exited the trade there"?

 

If I'm not explaining this clearly enough, I'll give it another shot. But it appears that Felton is explaining what he's doing rather than allowing students to SEE what he's doing on his own platform. Correct?

 

Db

 

Hope this thread doesn't go on and on because it is definitely starting to look like I'm trying to sell something here. I'm not...in fact, I can't to TL members so this is just FYI stuff....

 

Trades are executed in real time for 3 hours per day. I moderate for 1.5 and a student moderates for 1.5 hours. We don't say what we did...we SHOW what we're doing. Trades usually come with plenty of warning, too. They are viewed on our trading platform so observers and students can see the entry, the management and the exit while we explain what we liked about the trade and what it's likely to do.

 

For a long list of very good reasons, the trades are done in simulation mode but everything else is live. Some traders believe, however, that no sim trade could possibly win if traded in a live account so the trading room is not for everyone.

[MightyMouse 12]

 

My point here is that providing trading statements (which I used to do so I know what I'm talking about) is not only a personal invasion of privacy, but it accomplishes nothing. Think about it. Assuming you went to college, how many of your professors did you demand to see their tax returns to see how much money they made as an engineer, or attorney, marine biologist, etc. None, right? You were there for knowledge and a degree. They provide that and you took it from there.

 

 

Providing a financial statement would prove two things. It would prove that I can trade. But I already prove that every day to anyone who cares to watch and ask questions. Secondly, it would prove that I had the emotional control and confidence to make a good consistent living as a professional trader. Sorry to say it guys but Focus, Patience, Discipline, and Confidence aren't sell-able commodities. They come from hard work, practice and experience...not from my financial statements. There is no correlation.

 

I think you are a lot smarter than you make yourself out to be.

 

You go to a university and you know exactly where your professors went to school, their degrees, their accomplishments, etc. Those who are frauds go down hard if they provide misinformation. I took courses when I was in schools simply because of who they were.

 

Their accomplishments and credentials make them more credible and it becomes easier to fork over a large amount of money to learn from them. Students seek the same from a trading mentor/instructor. If you say, you are a guru, then you should be willing to show them that you are a guru. If you say you earn x percent, you should be willing to show them you earn x percent. In the same way that a professor says he received his PHD from MIT, he should be willing to show that he did. What would you think of a professor who refuses to show that he has a PHD from MIT and says that you should attend one of his classes for 3 hours and you will be able to tell that he knows what he is talking about and that should be proof enough? According to you, that should be good enough for you. I highly doubt it. Yet, this is what you force upon your students if they ask.

 

In the end I think it is you who is deliberately missing the point.

Edited June 27, 2012 by MightyMouse

[MightyMouse 12]

 

So, for me, yeah...sim trading is harder than trading my live account. Absolutely.

 

Me too! I struggle with sim trading and then I trade live and make a lot of money. This makes sense.

[DbPhoenix 42]

Hope this thread doesn't go on and on because it is definitely starting to look like I'm trying to sell something here. I'm not.

 

Actually, that ship has sailed. I'll wait to hear what Siuya has to say.

 

But thanks anyway.

 

Db

[SIUYA 11]

When in this room, are you seeing the charts and the trading platform that Felton is using? By that I don't mean that one is using one's own chart of whatever that just happens to be the same chart but that one is seeing the very chart that Felton is using to trade, along with whatever trading platform he's using so that one can see his exact trade entry transmissions at the instant that he makes them? Or is it the usual "took a trade here", "exited the trade there"?

 

If I'm not explaining this clearly enough, I'll give it another shot. But it appears that Felton is explaining what he's doing rather than allowing students to SEE what he's doing on his own platform. Correct?

 

Db

 

I think I am following you......

Yes - you do see charts on Ninja with Felton trading indicators. - these are renko bar based, so you dont really see whats going on inside them. You dont necessarily have to have your own charts to follow along with.

There are a few confusing times when you are seeing a chart of Crude and a chart of the EURUSD and talk is about a trade happening in gold and you have no chart of it....additionally there are times where the trades do seem to occur whereby you might have missed how they were put on.

I did not think there was a great deal of explanation for certain trades, and I as they are scalping mainly then its quick to move onto the next trade.

Some trades definitely had the moderator saying we will set an entry here, take proift here, stop here......so yes that does happen prior the trade

I am sure there can be more explanations given once you have signed on, and/or if you were to watch for a lot longer periods.

As if to weather or not you could just as quickly replicate the trades in your own live account... hard to say.

I have seen enough traders in pits, and at computers to follow a lot of what they are doing, and their ideas and levels before they do it. - scalping in a trading room....with multiple instruments, lack of screen space, discretion applied....harder to follow or replicate

 

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''

As for going on and on.....I thought that was what discussions often did, and in reviewing things, questions that dont 'seem' to get a satisfactory answer of course will raise more questions.

 

I for one will disagree with Roger regards SIM trading, providing satisfactory evidence of live trading - for clearly the answer if you requested it from him is no, - as as to how much of an effect that may or may not have in translating to live trading who knows - we do agree someone can certainly teach in SIM, and that person maybe a good teacher.

 

If like me you think that a requirement would be that they can trade live as well (and or proove it) then that is a better result - if having to choose between two similar trading rooms, then I would choose a live trading one.

 

I can tell you today - my model EURUSD is looking ok today...my live EURUSD trading is getting chopped up with a few trades gathering extra slippage.

 

There is probably not much more for me to add on that point.

[DbPhoenix 42]

I think I am following you......

Yes - you do see charts on Ninja with Felton trading indicators. - these are renko bar based, so you dont really see whats going on inside them. You dont necessarily have to have your own charts to follow along with.

There are a few confusing times when you are seeing a chart of Crude and a chart of the EURUSD and talk is about a trade happening in gold and you have no chart of it....additionally there are times where the trades do seem to occur whereby you might have missed how they were put on.

I did not think there was a great deal of explanation for certain trades, and I as they are scalping mainly then its quick to move onto the next trade.

Some trades definitely had the moderator saying we will set an entry here, take proift here, stop here......so yes that does happen prior the trade

I am sure there can be more explanations given once you have signed on, and/or if you were to watch for a lot longer periods.

 

Thanks for your reply. This is what I wanted to know. If the trader is not providing a display that shows where and how he's entering the trade at the instant he's entering it (no different than the display you see when you're entering a trade), along with whatever cover stops he may be incorporating, then it's all just tap-dancing. What the traders claim is completely irrelevant, and no one should tolerate anything less than a real-time display of order transmissions. In this way, the observer can conduct his own audit of profits and losses in real-time, and financial statements are unnecessary (and possibly misleading, since they can be faked). As for not showing charts at all of what's being traded, that's simply ludicrous.

 

Db

[Roger Felton 10]

I think you are a lot smarter than you make yourself out to be.

 

You go to a university and you know exactly where your professors went to school, their degrees, their accomplishments, etc. Those who are frauds go down hard if they provide misinformation. I took courses when I was in schools simply because of who they were.

 

Their accomplishments and credentials make them more credible and it becomes easier to fork over a large amount of money to learn from them. Students seek the same from a trading mentor/instructor. If you say, you are a guru, then you should be willing to show them that you are a guru. If you say you earn x percent, you should be willing to show them you earn x percent. In the same way that a professor says he received his PHD from MIT, he should be willing to show that he did. What would you think of a professor who refuses to show that he has a PHD from MIT and says that you should attend one of his classes for 3 hours and you will be able to tell that he knows what he is talking about and that should be proof enough? According to you, that should be good enough for you. I highly doubt it. Yet, this is what you force upon your students if they ask.

 

In the end I think it is you who is deliberately missing the point.

 

Trading is, for most, all about making money from a learned skill. College is about making money with a learned skill (and degree). I have a masters degree in electrical engineering. So what? Some of my college professors had PhD's. Big deal. I never met many that could actually teach. And none ever showed me their tax returns to prove that they ever made a dime in EE. I didn't care. Just give me the knowledge and I can do the rest.

 

The people I learned the most from in life didn't have a degree...or much money.

 

If the secret to vast riches is finding a "guru" with notarized statements, then why are those courses and systems that offer that not on the front page of every newspaper in the civilized world? Because they're usually a scam! Waving big fat checks and 6 figure trading statements in peoples faces is the oldest trick in the book. Even if you're totally honest, doing that makes one look like a con artist. It's like you're promising them they will do as well by setting the expectation...and that is wrong!

 

But, it that's what you want, go for it.

[SIUYA 11]

Roger no one is asking for IRS statements, your balance sheet or such.

 

Simply some sort of live trading record - I think that as you show SIM trading, and yet say you trade live I think it is a fair request for someone who may wish to take your course.

No one here is demanding it from you.

 

You have made your reasons as to why you would not disclose any live trading records, and people can make up their minds as to what they think.

 

A better example to compare it against in a university situation is, in PHD world written papers that have been submited, reviewed and published in valid journals are probably worth something. Someone writing a book on their Phd subject may be worth less, someone claiming knowledge - and even if they do, cannot show anything for it, may be worth even less. (found this for a bit of a laugh 10 reasons Ph.D. students fail)

(When it comes to something such as electrical engineering and making money - well I would assume that they would be more likely to be good as business first. When it comes to trading making money is the only thing - hence its easy to rank and proove)

 

Thats all - its a ranking.

 

and no....someone throwing around statements may be a complete idiot, lucky, scammer, freak of nature or they may just be a guru - but we all know there is more to it than that.

 

(really not sure why i am continuing repeating myself):doh:

[MightyMouse 12]

Trading is, for most, all about making money from a learned skill. College is about making money with a learned skill (and degree). I have a masters degree in electrical engineering. So what? Some of my college professors had PhD's. Big deal. I never met many that could actually teach. And none ever showed me their tax returns to prove that they ever made a dime in EE. I didn't care. Just give me the knowledge and I can do the rest.

 

The people I learned the most from in life didn't have a degree...or much money.

 

If the secret to vast riches is finding a "guru" with notarized statements, then why are those courses and systems that offer that not on the front page of every newspaper in the civilized world? Because they're usually a scam! Waving big fat checks and 6 figure trading statements in peoples faces is the oldest trick in the book. Even if you're totally honest, doing that makes one look like a con artist. It's like you're promising them they will do as well by setting the expectation...and that is wrong!

 

But, it that's what you want, go for it.

 

Again, you try to divert the questions. It doesn't work. I think I feel very safe suggesting that either you do not trade or are very fearful of showing your results since they won't come close to what you pretend to be able to earn. Enough of the Sim is harder than live, and enough of the attempt to protect your students from over-expecting good results by seeing your results.

 

Incidentally, a notary only confirms that the person signing is actually the person signing. He does not confirm that the data is accurate. Again, you attempt to confuse with BS.

[Roger Felton 10]

There are a few confusing times when you are seeing a chart of Crude and a chart of the EURUSD and talk is about a trade happening in gold and you have no chart of it....additionally there are times where the trades do seem to occur whereby you might have missed how they were put on. I did not think there was a great deal of explanation for certain trades, and I as they are scalping mainly then its quick to move onto the next trade.

 

I'm curious if you can you name one time while I was moderating the room that I took a trade and did not show it to the entire group? I usually enter with Limit Orders so trades are seen from beginning to end 99% of the time. I can't speak for my student moderator, Clint, since I don't monitor him constantly, but I visually show every trade I take unless the LO is set, filled and the target or stop is hit in 5 seconds or less. That is unavoidable.

 

Also, could you name one time when you were confused about a trade and asked me about it and I did not go over it in great detail to make it clear to you?

 

SIUYA, I think you are being somewhat misleading when you make these statements.

 

Since you seemed to be confused a lot, how many times did you ask me to get together with you one-on-one in the room and completely explain everything to you in detail and answer all of your questions? I think the answer is "zero" even though I tell everyone often that I'd love the opportunity to do that. Your confusion would have been cleared up in a very short time.

 

As if to weather or not you could just as quickly replicate the trades in your own live account... hard to say.

I have seen enough traders in pits, and at computers to follow a lot of what they are doing, and their ideas and levels before they do it. - scalping in a trading room....with multiple instruments, lack of screen space, discretion applied....harder to follow or replicate

 

The "trading room" is actually more of a "training room". It is extremely difficult to try to copycat the trades of another individual especially when you don't know what he is looking for, what he is doing or why he's doing it. Training is everything.

 

I also must disagree with you that sim and live trading are vastly different. I do most of my live trading between 6am and 7:30am CST and very often I will take the same trade on both sim and live platforms. Rarely is there any appreciable difference in the result. You seem to imply that in a sim trade, price will go in a completely different direction than it does in a live trade. They're identical! The data is the same! Using Limit Orders, getting same result both ways on the same trade is a very common occurrence.

[Roger Felton 10]

Again, you try to divert the questions. It doesn't work. I think I feel very safe suggesting that either you do not trade or are very fearful of showing your results since they won't come close to what you pretend to be able to earn. Enough of the Sim is harder than live, and enough of the attempt to protect your students from over-expecting good results by seeing your results.

 

Incidentally, a notary only confirms that the person signing is actually the person signing. He does not confirm that the data is accurate. Again, you attempt to confuse with BS.

 

MM, this is simply a case of you believing that verified trading statements of one trader can somehow magically "rub off" and make someone else a better trader. That's the BS here.

 

I feel safe in my suspicion that, as traders go, you're probably pretty inept. The anger and rage give you away. But, so what. None of my business. You're not trying to sell me anything and I'm sure not trying to sell you. In fact, I really feel sorry for whoever tries to sell a trading course or system to anyone here at TL. Just thinking about that cracks me up.

 

I'm very proud of my accomplishments as a trader but, as good as my statements are, there is no chance anyone from this group would ever become a part of mine. There is no interest, no civility, and the intense negativity here would not go over well there.

 

At some point it may finally sink in that I cannot and will not accept clients from TL. Everyone can relax. Once that's fully understood, perhaps the accusations might cease and, who knows, we might actually become friends over time.

[Roger Felton 10]

 

Roger no one is asking for IRS statements, your balance sheet or such.

 

Simply some sort of live trading record - I think that as you show SIM trading, and yet say you trade live I think it is a fair request for someone who may wish to take your course.

No one here is demanding it from you.

 

Thanks, SIUYA. Although no one is asking for my IRS tax returns, you and others are asking me to hand over financial statements that represent over 95% of my personal income to people I don't know....total strangers! That's nuts. I don't need clients that bad. I deal with professional traders every day and nobody ever asks me for that.

 

If it proved anything or helped others become better traders faster, then I might consider it again, but it doesn't. You and I know that the most impressive trading statements in the world would not result in anyone joining FT from Traders Lab...never gonna happen...so, what's the point? TL is a good forum but has nothing to do with anyone becoming a future client of Felton Trading.

[SIUYA 11]

I'm curious if you can you name one time while I was moderating the room that I took a trade and did not show it to the entire group? I usually enter with Limit Orders so trades are seen from beginning to end 99% of the time. I can't speak for my student moderator, Clint, since I don't monitor him constantly, but I visually show every trade I take unless the LO is set, filled and the target or stop is hit in 5 seconds or less. That is unavoidable.

 

Also, could you name one time when you were confused about a trade and asked me about it and I did not go over it in great detail to make it clear to you?

 

SIUYA, I think you are being somewhat misleading when you make these statements.

 

Since you seemed to be confused a lot, how many times did you ask me to get together with you one-on-one in the room and completely explain everything to you in detail and answer all of your questions? I think the answer is "zero" even though I tell everyone often that I'd love the opportunity to do that. Your confusion would have been cleared up in a very short time.

 

 

 

The "trading room" is actually more of a "training room". It is extremely difficult to try to copycat the trades of another individual especially when you don't know what he is looking for, what he is doing or why he's doing it. Training is everything.

 

I also must disagree with you that sim and live trading are vastly different. I do most of my live trading between 6am and 7:30am CST and very often I will take the same trade on both sim and live platforms. Rarely is there any appreciable difference in the result. You seem to imply that in a sim trade, price will go in a completely different direction than it does in a live trade. They're identical! The data is the same! Using Limit Orders, getting same result both ways on the same trade is a very common occurrence.

 

Down boy! you are starting to slip into the name calling with saying I am being misleading, and that I seem to be confused a lot....maybe just maybe your trading room is confusing or substandard - I am not saying it is - all I have said is that I did not think it was really good value for money.

I had little interest in trying to work out your scalping technique, or pursuing anything further especially as you constantly make it clear to everyone that no member of TL can ever pay you or be accepted as a student......so why would any of us bother?

and if you really think that you show every trade, and explain everything then i am sure you would have no problems releasing a recorded session from two weeks ago - lets say Tuesday.

 

So far Roger you dont seem at all open to any criticism and the opinion of others, all you wish to do is defend yourself, and IMHO it raises more questions....hence that may be the source of my confusion.

As for releasing financials- I can guess your income already based on what you say you make. Alternatively often people do release subsets of a month....there are alternatives and as I have constantly said - i dont think this would be an unreasonable request.

 

If you like I can just release all the "confused" notes I made unedited while watching or people can as i suggested request their own free trial and make their mind up.

[Roger Felton 10]

Down boy! you are starting to slip into the name calling with saying I am being misleading, and that I seem to be confused a lot....maybe just maybe your trading room is confusing or substandard - I am not saying it is - all I have said is that I did not think it was really good value for money.

I had little interest in trying to work out your scalping technique, or pursuing anything further especially as you constantly make it clear to everyone that no member of TL can ever pay you or be accepted as a student......so why would any of us bother?

and if you really think that you show every trade, and explain everything then i am sure you would have no problems releasing a recorded session from two weeks ago - lets say Tuesday.

 

So far Roger you dont seem at all open to any criticism and the opinion of others, all you wish to do is defend yourself, and IMHO it raises more questions....hence that may be the source of my confusion.

As for releasing financials- I can guess your income already based on what you say you make. Alternatively often people do release subsets of a month....there are alternatives and as I have constantly said - i dont think this would be an unreasonable request.

 

If you like I can just release all the "confused" notes I made unedited while watching or people can as i suggested request their own free trial and make their mind up.

 

A person can be "misleading" without it being intentional. You stated that I would mention that I was in a trade, but would not bring it up on camera. I asked you to please tell me when it was that I did that. It's a pet peeve of mine when moderators do that because it smacks of "smoke and mirrors" which was the impression you left with Db when he said, "As for not showing charts at all of what's being traded, that's simply ludicrous."

 

For Db to be given the impression that I don't show any charts at all isn't criticism, SIUYA, that is someone who was mislead. Knowing you the little that I do, I would say it was not intentional but I cannot let that kind of "criticism" slide unchallenged.

 

You stated that you were "confused"...your words, not mine. That implied that you had questions and either were not given a chance to ask, or they were simply ignored when you did. The only other possibility was that you had questions but preferred to remain confused rather than get answers...which would not make sense.

 

SIUYA, this isn't a matter of not being able to take criticism. Your comments about my company go out on the Internet and are there forever...it's what people see when they bring up my company in a search engine. If something isn't right, or gives the wrong impression, I would be remiss if I did not correct it.

 

Unintentionally, it appears that your post gave Db the wrong impression (as you can tell from his response) and I felt it important to respond.

 

If you have been following the posts here at TL, then you know why I had to state that I would not accept any payment from any TL member for anything. I tried to make it clear that I was, at all times, willing to help TL members in any way I could. It was a goodwill gesture that went largely ignored.

[gosu 10]

* * *

Your comments about my company go out on the Internet and are there forever...it's what people see when they bring up my company in a search engine. If something isn't right, or gives the wrong impression, I would be remiss if I did not correct it. * * *

 

I take it that you were not remiss ignoring the following comments that leave a really lousy impression of your business practices?

 

From: Traders International = SCAM ARTISTS

 

"I had initial success mostly cause i didnt trade every day and wanted to focus on my reaL busness. Id still keep logs when i could and compare with the recaps and note the numerous mistakes which i sent to Roger.. Subsequently Roger contacted me and asked if he could use my statements as a reference . I was confused and asked him why he couldnt use his own and he later admitted that he didnt trade in real time but had to focus on the classes and responding to all the students".

 

* * *

 

I am quite enjoying your explanations, so please put forth your best effort on that one.

 

This thread is better than the RTD comic strip and I would request MMS to not delete posts so quickly before people have had a chance to read them.

[MightyMouse 12]

MM, this is simply a case of you believing that verified trading statements of one trader can somehow magically "rub off" and make someone else a better trader. That's the BS here.

 

I feel safe in my suspicion that, as traders go, you're probably pretty inept. The anger and rage give you away. But, so what. None of my business. You're not trying to sell me anything and I'm sure not trying to sell you. In fact, I really feel sorry for whoever tries to sell a trading course or system to anyone here at TL. Just thinking about that cracks me up.

 

I'm very proud of my accomplishments as a trader but, as good as my statements are, there is no chance anyone from this group would ever become a part of mine. There is no interest, no civility, and the intense negativity here would not go over well there.

 

At some point it may finally sink in that I cannot and will not accept clients from TL. Everyone can relax. Once that's fully understood, perhaps the accusations might cease and, who knows, we might actually become friends over time.

 

I don't think anyone is looking for magic. I do believe if you are willing to say you do A or B, that you should be able to prove that you do A or B. It adds credibility if you support your statements. All people who are not suckers think the same way. We also know that someone who is afraid to back up his claims with proof is likely hiding something. In this case his is hiding his inability to trade as well as he claims he can. It really is that simple and you choose to complicate it. From your perspective, I understand your need to blur and divert.

 

Whether I can trade or not is not at question. I assure you I do not and cannot earn 1200 a day on a 10k account as you claim you can. Admitting that I can't is no issue for me. I think most people who are not selling a dream or are not still following a dream will concur with me.

[SIUYA 11]

A person can be "misleading" without it being intentional. You stated that I would mention that I was in a trade, but would not bring it up on camera. I asked you to please tell me when it was that I did that. It's a pet peeve of mine when moderators do that because it smacks of "smoke and mirrors" which was the impression you left with Db when he said, "As for not showing charts at all of what's being traded, that's simply ludicrous."

 

For Db to be given the impression that I don't show any charts at all isn't criticism, SIUYA, that is someone who was mislead. Knowing you the little that I do, I would say it was not intentional but I cannot let that kind of "criticism" slide unchallenged.

 

I dont mean to be misleading (intentional or not)

quoting from my own post.....

"Yes - you do see charts on Ninja with Felton trading indicators. - these are renko bar based, so you dont really see whats going on inside them. You dont necessarily have to have your own charts to follow along with.

There are a few confusing times when you are seeing a chart of Crude and a chart of the EURUSD and talk is about a trade happening in gold and you have no chart of it....additionally there are times where the trades do seem to occur whereby you might have missed how they were put on.

I did not think there was a great deal of explanation for certain trades, and I as they are scalping mainly then its quick to move onto the next trade.

Some trades definitely had the moderator saying we will set an entry here, take proift here, stop here......so yes that does happen prior the trade"

 

Not sure how I have suggested you dont show charts.....speaking for Db. he may have been referring to any moderator that does not show charts is ludicrous.....it is not all about you Roger. --- so Db - if you are reading this - Rodger shows charts....

 

The simplest thing is ....do you have a recording of your sessions? If so, post one - as I said Tuesday two weeks ago would be a good one. If I am wrong, then on the internet record I will profusely apologize.

If you dont record them, then how do you know I am wrong?

 

You stated that you were "confused"...your words, not mine. That implied that you had questions and either were not given a chance to ask, or they were simply ignored when you did. The only other possibility was that you had questions but preferred to remain confused rather than get answers...which would not make sense.

 

Not at all - I thought that following the moderation was a little confusing, and that seeing two charts and discussing another can be a little confusing. Given your own confusion of keeping up with things a couple of times when it gets busy - this is understandable. Some trades happen quickly and you do by your own admittance use a bit of discretion....

 

(from my notes made at the time - "Comments such as nice short on gold “missed that one” but then does not show why. " - this was the impression I had - maybe it was Clint, maybe it was you, maybe I did just miss it.)

 

 

SIUYA, this isn't a matter of not being able to take criticism. Your comments about my company go out on the Internet and are there forever...it's what people see when they bring up my company in a search engine. If something isn't right, or gives the wrong impression, I would be remiss if I did not correct it.

 

Unintentionally, it appears that your post gave Db the wrong impression (as you can tell from his response) and I felt it important to respond.

 

If you have been following the posts here at TL, then you know why I had to state that I would not accept any payment from any TL member for anything. I tried to make it clear that I was, at all times, willing to help TL members in any way I could. It was a goodwill gesture that went largely ignored.

 

If you have a recorded session - an unedited one from the time I watched then as I said I would gladly apologise, if others dont feel the same way......

If you dont then it is merely a matter of he said, he said......

 

You happily post as many positive testimonials on your site as you can, so I dont know if a few negative reviews for a few things are much to be concerned about unless you are more focused on the sales.

Also Roger - I am sure you are viewing this as an exercise in improving your business.....if not, then its a missed opportunity.

 

...........................

As a lesson I have learnt (given you were my first real trading room review), along with any other due diligence questions to look at, ask about.

 

As a suggestion to anyone else entering a free trading room, or doing a review of something....record the sessions.

Maybe your first impressions are wrong and after review or thought things become clearer....a good habit to get into.

Alternatively it may confirm your first impressions.

[Hugh Morris 10]

Me too! I struggle with sim trading and then I trade live and make a lot of money. This makes sense.

 

I know people think this idea is crazy, but there's actually some truth to it in my personal case. In my experience, I have had notably better results trading live than I ever have trading SIM. I've never managed to pull off truly treating the SIM account as I would a live account...I tend to be more reckless, pay less attention, etc., when real money's not on the line. Partially due to a lack of discpline, but also I'm not sure how someone truly can treat a SIM account as he or she would a live account, emotionally...unless there was absolutely no discretion (emotion) involved in the strategy.

 

However, while this is the case for me now, in my early days it was not...I would SIM trade for a while doing ok, turn live and do terribly and quit...so the situation above probably applies to a more experienced trader the a newbie for sure. I wouldn't recommend a new trader jump in with real money right away. Some SIM trading can be useful starting out.

[DbPhoenix 42]

Not sure how I have suggested you dont show charts.....speaking for Db. he may have been referring to any moderator that does not show charts is ludicrous.....it is not all about you Roger. --- so Db - if you are reading this - Rodger shows charts....

 

Thank you, but that was not quite what I was asking. Whether or not the moderator shows charts is largely immaterial. What matters is whether or not the student can see the moderator enter and transmit the order, not "placed", or "will place". If the student cannot see the order being physically entered and transmitted, then it's all nonsense.

 

As for audited brokerage statements, I can understand the reluctance to provide these, though it is not unheard of in the trading educator community. What puzzles me is why anybody would be reluctant to provide trading statements of SIM trades. Without at least those and without a real-time display of the order entry and transmission, there's no evidence that the moderator is actually trading, or, for that matter, has ever traded at all.

 

Db

[MightyMouse 12]

I know people think this idea is crazy, but there's actually some truth to it in my personal case. In my experience, I have had notably better results trading live than I ever have trading SIM. I've never managed to pull off truly treating the SIM account as I would a live account...I tend to be more reckless, pay less attention, etc., when real money's not on the line. Partially due to a lack of discpline, but also I'm not sure how someone truly can treat a SIM account as he or she would a live account, emotionally...unless there was absolutely no discretion (emotion) involved in the strategy.

 

However, while this is the case for me now, in my early days it was not...I would SIM trade for a while doing ok, turn live and do terribly and quit...so the situation above probably applies to a more experienced trader the a newbie for sure. I wouldn't recommend a new trader jump in with real money right away. Some SIM trading can be useful starting out.

 

I suspect you picked up on sarcasm in my statement.

 

I can see how you would be correct since you simply don't care about the sim account and can do things like add and add to losers since it really doesn't matter.

[MightyMouse 12]

Earlier I mentioned a trader who started with under $2000 ($1600 to be exact) and in less than 12 years snowballed it into some $200 million. His name was Richard Dennis.

 

At the young age of 17, Dennis became an order runner on the trading floor of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. A few years later he scrounged up $1,600 and began trading for his own account. By the time he was 25 he was a millionaire. At 40 he was worth some $200 million. Every penny he earned was due to him using a trend-following momentum based system.

 

It was Dennis who was responsible for amassing a $200 million dollar fortune. However, after a few successful trading years, Dennis brought on a partner. A math genius named Eckhardt who believed that good traders were born with a sixth sense and that successful trading could not be taught to just anyone.

 

Dennis disagreed. He believed anyone, if given the right guidelines and rules could learn to trade successfully. To settle their dispute, Dennis took out an ad in the paper looking for individuals from all walks of life to prove that anyone could be a successful trader.

 

From that ad he recruited 14 students, who became known as the Turtle Traders. He taught them the exact trend-following momentum based system he was using in his own trading. The same method he used to make $200 million in less than 12 years.

 

After just two weeks of formal training Dennis turned each one of them loose with $1 million in trading capital from his own personal funds. Each student was to keep 15% of their profits. Dennis kept the rest since he was bankrolling the entire project. Under no circumstances were the students responsible for any losses incurred.

 

In just 4 ½ short years, using a trend-following system, his students had turned an original investment of $14 million into over $100 million netting at least $86 million in trading profits. But more important, their dispute was settled. Dennis had proved that anyone can make a fortune trading, if given the right system and rules.

 

Why do I tell you this story? Because the only system of trading that has ever been successfully taught to a group of ordinary folk, many of them now millionaires, some even worth hundreds of millions, is a trend-following momentum based system.

 

 

The above,which i came across by clicking a link under Bigcharts.

To me that is the benchmark that Roger and any other vendor should be measured against.The general view here is.....that he falls somewhat short.

I don't agree that "anyone can make a fortune trading",but let's just say they do have a better chance with the right teacher.

It is unfair to only talk about half of the Richard Dennis story.

[SIUYA 11]

It is unfair to only talk about half of the Richard Dennis story.

 

unless Mit is trying to imply that an educator should back his students with capital and take a percentage of their profits while/as he teaches them their methods, as a measure to judge.......not necessarily a new idea but some would say harsh but fair.