Feltontrading Method

[MightyMouse 12]

The ignorance in this forum is astounding. I said my goal was to average $1000 plus...

 

No one can possibly hit an exact target goal every day. You're a trader, aren't you? You can't wrap your brain around that?

 

I also said that some days I miss my goal...market aren't always great. Some days I lose a little. And then there are days when I greatly exceed my goal.

 

A goal is a level I try to achieve but it's not necessarily a stopping point. Many days the trades just keep firing and working all day long and I'd be an idiot to stop trading. My 2-year average beats my minimum goal level...so what?

 

By what measure of logic to you figure that, because I teach and trade in sim for 3 hours a day, that I therefore cannot possibly have time to trade my live account? Ridiculous nonsense and so typical of the vile tactics you guys constantly post here. I no longer have the stomach for this anymore.

 

Why am I trying to explain something this elementary to you? You are one of the many here who will twist everything I say into something else. As fact twisters, you guys win the trophy every time.

 

And it will never ever change.....

 

I am not suggesting that you do not have time to trade a real account. I will, however, suggest that you do not have a real account that you trade with. That isn't a fact. It comes from my gut.

 

There are no facts to twist. Only fabrications to poke sticks at. I took you up on your offer for the $1 million. Scared? Let's stick to the facts.

[Roger Felton 10]

I don't think Roger put his best foot forward in this thread either. I think everyone looked bad. Sorry.

 

 

You are absolutely correct. I did not put my best foot forward. I let the flood of personal attacks get to me when I should have immediately recognized the futility of trying to defend against them. Very bad judgment on my part.

[Roger Felton 10]

Seems i was wrong then,my apoligies.I'd avoid this thread if you're easily offended.It'll probably kick off again when Suiya reports back.Roger is fair game,the genuine good guys are few and far between in his business.And if he is genuine he really should get somebody else to do his marketing for him,he's a PR disaster area.

 

This is part of my last post to SIUYA:

 

"....Please give me your contact info in a PM and we can get started. I'll be finishing a training course for a small group tomorrow so we can hit the ground running as early as next week. Thanks for always being civil and I look forward to working with you as a mentor and as a friend...."

 

There has been no contact...no PM...no interest. Sorry, I can't force anyone to accept my help so don't hold your breath waiting for his feedback. I give up.

[Hugh Morris 10]

Roger,

 

Is your official claim that you can (and do) consistently average a real $1,000 per day trading 2 futures contracts? In other words, if one had a $25,000 account (IMO reasonable for a daytrading position size of 2 contracts), that would be a 20% return in a week. You have also claimed that you don't have daily drawdowns of more than 2%, correct?

 

I'm not here to judge either way so don't worry about a possible follow-up attack from me. I am of the opinion that comparing hedge fund performance to relatively small independent trader performance is not an apples to apples comparison, and therefore do not consider such a claim impossible (although, of course, highly improbable). I just wanted to know if I have your claims correct and that I haven't missed something.

 

Thanks,

 

Hugh

[Roger Felton 10]

You seem to be a different Roger today than we're used to.....

 

If I Hear "price Action" or "setup" ONE More Time... - Page 12 - Traders Laboratory - 12555

 

...but i wouldn't say it was ever futile.I would say you reap what you sow.You've said what you think about me numerous times.Prove me wrong and you will get my apology,same as i apologised to cindy.

And at the end of the day,if you can't convince anybody you're genuine,then,sometimes it takes a bigger man to walk away.

 

It's a Catch 22. You say, "Prove me wrong", yet give no opportunity for me to do so. It would have been so easy had you reserved judgment and simply logged into the Trading Room and stayed as long as you needed to form a rational opinion...good or bad...but based on actual experience rather than poisoned mindset.

 

You're right, I should have been the "bigger man" and walked away from the beginning.

 

For the record, yes, I was "banned" from Big Mike's. He has an intense and instant dislike for vendors...education vendors in particular...yet that's exactly how he has packaged himself. He "educates" and he charges a fee to get it. Perhaps it's a professional jealousy issue, I don't know.

 

I communicated to someone in a totally private email that Big Mike was not, in my opinion and professional experience, a successful trader although he likes to present himself to his minions as a trading expert. I had strong evidence of such but should have kept it to myself, I suppose. Word got back to "Da Big Dog", as he calls himself, and he banned me. So be it...good forum though and I had a lot of followers there.

 

But, like you and many here at TL, I can't stand phonies. They give this industry a real black eye. They make it impossible for the few good eggs to hold their head up when they say they are trading educators/mentors, etc.. When an industry is made up of 90%+ con artists and slick marketers, everybody looks bad. Kinda like attorneys, siding salesmen and used car dealers. Seems the ones who market the heaviest are the worst ones to deal with.

 

I would have loved to have watched Big Mike spend a couple of hours proving to the world that he was the trading guru he pretended to be. Turn on the camera and do what I do everyday...take live trades in the live market...simulation or real account is fine either way. It was one time when I wished I was wrong. I would have apologized profusely. Let me watch someone's trade selection and trade management and I can spot a pro in no time. Big Mike will never make that happen but he will continue to dole out contradictory advice to his struggling members doing more harm than good. But it's his show, not mine and it's all water under the bridge.

[Roger Felton 10]

TL Members:

 

It has been a really interesting experience interacting with this group. Perhaps time will prove it to be a good experience if I grow and learn from it. Offending others just because I was offended was really boneheaded on my part and totally against my nature. I completely understand anyone who has strong convictions about anyone involved in this business. I wanted a "fair shake" and I went about getting it all wrong...and for that, I deeply apologize.

 

Our beliefs are so diametrically opposed that there is little hope of finding common ground. I realize that now and that's how life goes sometimes. But I leave here with no animosity whatsoever towards anyone and I truly mean that. I let my desire to help completely dominate my better judgment.

 

Go ahead and chuckle guys...lol...but this will be my last post at TL and I will see if there is any way to "un-member" myself. As you know, his kind of banter has got to stop. This was not the experience I had hope for and I took my disappointment out on some of you. That was wrong and it stops now.

 

Sometimes friendships just weren't meant to be but I do hope that everyone here at TL finds the lasting success that they deserve.

 

Roger

[Kiwi 16]

For mitsubishi,

 

The customer is always right is really wrong. Frequently the customer is a complete f'wit.

 

A better one we used to use is that "The customer is always King" which means that he can chop your head off at will. The trick is to correct his world view while keeping your head.

 

 

For Roger,

The wish "I do hope that everyone here at TL finds the lasting success that they deserve" is barbed and as such possibly rather spiteful. Its funny when people destroy the good will they might have built up in their last line.

 

So, off with your head. :smoking:

[MadMarketScientist 11]

For mitsubishi,

 

The customer is always right is really wrong. Frequently the customer is a complete f'wit.

 

A better one we used to use is that "The customer is always King" which means that he can chop your head off at will. The trick is to correct his world view while keeping your head.

 

 

For Roger,

The wish "I do hope that everyone here at TL finds the lasting success that they deserve" is barbed and as such possibly rather spiteful. Its funny when people destroy the good will they might have built up in their last line.

 

So, off with your head. :smoking:

 

Come on guys, I don't think Roger meant anything with that sentence ... let's not look at everything with such a skeptical eye. Anything can be made to look bad if you really want it to be.

 

MMS

[gosu 10]

TL Members:

 

It has been a really interesting experience interacting with this group. Perhaps time will prove it to be a good experience if I grow and learn from it. Offending others just because I was offended was really boneheaded on my part and totally against my nature. I completely understand anyone who has strong convictions about anyone involved in this business. I wanted a "fair shake" and I went about getting it all wrong...and for that, I deeply apologize.

 

Our beliefs are so diametrically opposed that there is little hope of finding common ground. I realize that now and that's how life goes sometimes. But I leave here with no animosity whatsoever towards anyone and I truly mean that. I let my desire to help completely dominate my better judgment.

 

Go ahead and chuckle guys...lol...but this will be my last post at TL and I will see if there is any way to "un-member" myself. As you know, his kind of banter has got to stop. This was not the experience I had hope for and I took my disappointment out on some of you. That was wrong and it stops now.

 

Sometimes friendships just weren't meant to be but I do hope that everyone here at TL finds the lasting success that they deserve.

 

Roger

 

The way you currently operate is indistinguishable from that of most other marketers who live off the fish by keeping their dream of "financial freedom" through daytrading alive. This is not to say I have sympathy for the fish, because I don't. People who are impressed with someone else's sim trading deserve what they get, including being exploited by the person doing the sim trading who claims he is an expert trader.

 

If you are truly interested in helping people with their trading, you really should get to a place where you can extract all your financial needs from your own trading. That way you can honestly consider the interest of the person who approaches you. Forget the trite "win-win" crap. Anyone who sincerely desires to help another should keep his own needs out of it or at the very least not exploit the person seeking help. If you're doing something for profit, then drop the "helping people" bullshit because all it does is make you look like a shyster.

 

My rule is to always discourage anyone who asks me if they should get into trading. I know they are not suited for it simply by their asking. I also know that people who go into trading seeking "financial freedom" are better off doing something else, something they really enjoy.

 

Contrary to your paranoid accusations, Roger, I do not hate you and in fact enjoy your posts. They encourage the kind of discussion that I come here for.

[Kiwi 16]

Come on guys, I don't think Roger meant anything with that sentence ... let's not look at everything with such a skeptical eye. Anything can be made to look bad if you really want it to be.

 

MMS

 

 

How do you know he didn't?

 

Given the "I'm taking my toys and leaving the sandpit" message, and the snide attack on Big Mike with zero evidence offered then I suspect he meant exactly that.

 

Skepticism is the correct attitude for a scientist - science is a game of skepticism, test and verification, not of faith (in the good nature of a vendor who's leaving the sandpit and wants to leave one last footprint).

 

Of course we should be skeptical of any unverified stories of trading capability including Big Mikes. And Rogers. That doesn't mean we think they're lying, just that we don't have enough evidence to support the theory that they are not.

[onesmith 10]

Roger, you're doing the right thing by leaving.

 

You should close your business. I'm certain you will struggle with the candidness in which I state that opinion as fact.

 

I've been studying the things you say from a perspective I'm going to leave vague but I assure you it's a very precise perspective and the things you say indicate you do not understand it's elements. Hence I expect this will cause you some confusion but it's best to restrain your curiosity and accept my opinion with the same weight you accept a fact.

 

I wish there was an easier, gentler way to convey the importance of this fact while simultaneously contributing toward winding down rather than ratcheting up controversy.

 

There's kindness of spirit behind the discretion in this note. Please do not mistake it for weakness. Accept my advice. You should close your business. That is a fact.

[SIUYA 11]

As requested, I did attend the free trading room (I would even encourage others to do so if they want), I hope my review is seen as nothing more than my personal review. As far as i am concerned there is nothing to argue about here as its my own subjective opinion. period. However if any one has other questions about my thoughts feel free to post. I may be away from the computer in the coming weeks so apologies if replies are delayed.

(side note - please dont see this as an excuse to bash, name call or what ever....otherwise you might just confirm your opinion requires an ignore button)

review follows.........

 

FELTON TRADING REVIEW

This is a totally subjective viewpoint, with no affiliation with Felton trading, nor do I have anything against them or any other vendors or trading educators. I hope this is seen as a summary of what my thoughts are. These are all just my thoughts without too much editing, so apologies if they ramble, repeat or may not be too clear. As such there is not a lot to argue about….these are just my views.

 

Pros and Cons (Positives and negatives)

 

Pros (some of these can be applied to any educator and may outweigh for some people the negatives)

Theory seems valid, methods and logic seem sound – it seemed orientated around scalping with the defined short term trend with a fair bit of discretion as to which and when to take trades.

Seems like a lot of it could be automated (or semi automated) in order to help with decision making

If you are a scalper it will appeal.

Day trading only – suits many people

Looks for lots of small wins – suits many peoples mentalities

Trading lots of instruments – to clip the most opportunities as they arise

Gives some good information regards sensible thoughts – eg; if you have computer problems stop trading. (But this is all common sense.)

System seems well documented.

Lots of education and talk about ideas and trading thoughts,

One on one talks available, on both trading and mental aspects of trading.

Keeps things simple and straightforward without too much jargon – good for new traders.

 

 

Cons (some of these can be applied to any educator and are things to look at further)

Not live but only SIM trading - the results represented were far too optimistic for real time execution. No matter the reasons and rationale given for why or why not – this does not accurately represent things in real life. Partial fills and slippage can easily radically change the results. (I also did not think the excuses were valid given the trading room setup to give live trades. Eg; the concentration needed is much more)

I could see a track record, no independent monitoring, no broker statements, no transcripts of past trades on the websites. This should be offered up, otherwise why not – you should not need to ask.

From the website – trading room recap is useless. Contradicts the above comments about it being systematic

The disclaimer shows they are hypothetical results, READ THIS DISCLAIMER

 

Very discretionary – few people will be able to replicate a good traders results. The margin between getting a scalping system right and wrong is very small. Ie; if you miss a few good trades, or get a few losses, then this can make a big difference. You will need to do your own study ultimately. So paying to learn another traders system to make it work for you will likely lead to frustration and you dropping the system. Learning bad habits can also be absolutely devastating and costly to some traders. These bad habits from scalping might be as simple as over trading, not letting profits run etc.

As trading is largely psychological – trying to adapt someone elses’ system will likely result in failure.

The systems seemed simple enough that you don’t need fancy indicators – you are scalping. There are probably other methods of developing this yourself.

 

Claims of you need the feel – ie; the only way to get this is through experience.

And yet on the website – “The Felton Trading Course teaches you a rock-solid time-tested trading method that is so objective that your computer can easily identify the market signals for you.”

 

 

The system or parameters changes continually – this implies it can get expensive and is more based on selling systems…..you are a slave to the system, or the new improvements. Another user also thought this a negative aspect of the course. Lack of consistency may be a issue.

Seems to require the software they provide. An extra expense – often a lot of these systems give different results after the end of the day so recapping the day might be confusing (not sure in this case) Nothing revolutionary in the software, or trading style, even though it may look like it. If it cannot be automated then it still requires a lot of discretion and market experience.

Looking at systems based on % of winning trades v total trades etc; can be diverting from what is important. How does the BE trades get accounted for – this makes a massive difference to percentages.

I could not see any brokerage attributed to the system.

Risk Return profile they used initially for trades was negative (or inverted) ie; you risk more to make small amounts. You have to have a big win loss ratios – not just breakeven. Relies a lot on scalping with trend – eg avg win 185, avg loss 400, win rate 88%.

 

 

Particular things that I really did not like and I would consider red flags – completely subjective

 

Too much sales pitch. Lots of up selling – things like “one on one that cant be done in the public chat room ” – why?

 

Back slapping to take 5 points (10ticks) on 6E by selling and trying to pick a turn…??? Too much back slapping and cultish behavior.

Comments such as nice short on gold “missed that one” but then does not show why.

 

Talks about needing limits which is like real life…..problem is slippage will kill you when only trying to get a few ticks. The SIM trading can be manipulated to be overly positive.

Comment about – complaint that Roger is constantly tweaking and coming up with new things.

Seemed to be a few issues with charts reoccurring, and too many issues

 

Talking about we are working on trying to get more than 5-7 ticks – after twenty years trading this is still being worked on??? Still not found a dependable way to get more ticks. In the website there is talk “we use a powerful and unique approach to capture larger market moves with a special trailing stop technique that is only taught in Felton Trading.” Only after you pay…..

Talked about systems requiring no subjectivity – yet his requires it

Too much contradicting information.

At one stage talked about “when we are trading live the market was really good – now in SIM it’s a bit quiet”……too much of a sales pitch about you should have seen it when it was live.

 

Difficult to follow what they were talking about unless you had the same things up all the time…..eg; there was talk of gold, when the sheet was only showing a chart for the 6E and crude…..too hard to follow, and then not necessarily a lot of reasoning why, with a lot of discretion

 

And the killer for me …. And lets face it – if you are running a business, these fee strucutres are designed for the business selling them, and this is fair enough….but it changes the dynamics.

The one off up front payments. Even if these give you unlimited accesss to a room for future reference, they are like gyms – most pay for a year and dont use them. These are potentially way more expensive.

The fact you need to actually fork out a lot of cash before getting the real trading “secrets”.

And talk about we are the only ones with this system/indicators. The whole it is “so special” thing.

Does not wash for me – money back guarantees and life time access is not worth it. It benefits only the business that offers it.

A monthly payment mentorship or access to a room makes more sense from a traders point of view – even if it is for 6 months at a time. To pay the amounts mentioned are a big red flag. Once the results come in then people would be happy to pay for improvements…..or is the system so simple once learnt nothing more is needed?

 

 

SUMMARY

 

Vendor products are sadly directed at novice traders who unfortunately do not know any better and greed overrides their normally sound judgment (quote from somewhere else that i could not have said better). Too many novice traders are looking for a quick fix and one turnkey easy solution. This means that anyone selling a product – even if the product is a good one will likely attract more customers if they only upsell and positive sell their products.

This is natural and a business decision that the vendors have made and do so rightly in order to best support their business of choice. I fully support them running their businesses.

So on saying that, in trying to take all the selling and upselling negativity out of my assessment …..

 

Basically – why pay to watch someone scalp and try and learn a largely discretionary system that is ultimately expensive. If you are a trader, and you know that most people loose, then the best thing you have on your side is time – spend it to learn how to trade in a manner that suits you, SIM trade for a while, then trade with very small amounts. Spending more than 5-10% of your total trading capital on a system or mentor up front is IMHO not a good trade.

 

The negatives to me outweigh the positives, and even a new trader will likely find more information from researching and studying – not just reading – the internet and other sites offering free information.

 

On saying this, if you get value for money from hand holding, company and a system that in most likelihood can be learnt and certainly can be made profitable by anyone should they be so psychologically inclined then you may find value with Felton trading and from all stories I have heard about other trading rooms and systems – this one is certainly not what I would consider to be one of the bad ones, but I would find little value in it.

[Obsidian 10]

SIUYA, thanks for this detailed review

[Roger Felton 10]

As requested, I did attend the free trading room (I would even encourage others to do so if they want), I hope my review is seen as nothing more than my personal review. As far as i am concerned there is nothing to argue about here as its my own subjective opinion. period. However if any one has other questions about my thoughts feel free to post. I may be away from the computer in the coming weeks so apologies if replies are delayed.

(side note - please dont see this as an excuse to bash, name call or what ever....otherwise you might just confirm your opinion requires an ignore button)

review follows.........

 

Our thanks, SIUYA, for taking the time to come visit and prepare this review for the TL group. It appears that you made an honest effort to put aside personal biases and preconceived opinions.

 

You are completely correct in that anyone can take the time to create their own trading method and save themselves some monetary expense...assuming their time is worth very little. Most traders will spend several years gaining the necessary knowledge and mastery of market behavior, price action, technical analysis and psychological mastery necessary to succeed. 90% or more never make it.

 

Any trader capable of mentally keeping track of over 500 things simultaneously in a single market would certainly not have any problem mastering what we do...or, make that, what our software does. Given 2 to 3 years to code and 10 to 15 years of method development, anyone should be able to duplicate what we've accomplished easily. Most of that time, by the way, was spent learning what doesn't work!

 

One thing I have learned over the years is that nobody, regardless of knowledge and talent, can make a trader successful who is not serious. In my opinion, traders who expect me to give up my evenings, weekends and holidays for $1.98 are not serious traders and I won't waste my time or theirs. We're a business just like any college, university or trade school and what we charge for lifetime mentorship and training (which they don't offer) is a relative pittance even if I gave the trading room away for free. So, you and I will probably have to disagree on what that's worth.

 

I think it just comes down to the value of success and reaching goals that have, for whatever reason, been evasive. What's that worth? A lot to some and not much to others, I suppose.

 

As a point of clarification, we don't "sell" nor do we "upsell" and you did not experience anyone asking you for any money at any time during your time with us, did you? You implied that someone did and, if so, I want to know about it because that is strictly against our policy. I abhor upselling. Anyone preferring to be nickel and dimed to death would not find joy with FT.

 

We're not the ones to come to for a free ride. And we're certainly not the guys you want if you expect an easy ride...it is not! It's a long hard rocky road filled with potholes and pitfalls. If you're surprised at the small number of traders who actually make a living trading, you'd be shocked to see the minute percentage who make it completely on their own.

 

Trading is one of the most difficult career choices anyone can possibly make. You can be in the bottom 10% in practically any other field and still make a living. If you're not the best of the best as a trader, then you're just donating. It takes full committment, hard work, lots of practice, intensive daily training and constant mentorship for at least a year or more if you're a novice.

 

Thanks once again, SIUYA, for the time you spent with us and for posting your review. I truly believe it represents your honest opinion of Felton Trading as you understand it and that's exactly what I had hoped for.

 

You are welcome back to our room anytime and welcome to stay for as long as you wish. Let's you and I get on Skype and chat trading sometime. I'd like that a lot.

 

Roger

Edited June 23, 2012 by Roger Felton

[SIUYA 11]

One thing I have learned over the years is that nobody, regardless of knowledge and talent, can make a trader successful who is not serious. In my opinion, traders who expect me to give up my evenings, weekends and holidays for $1.98 are not serious traders and I won't waste my time or theirs. We're a business just like any college, university or trade school and what we charge for lifetime mentorship and training (which they don't offer) is a relative pittance even if I gave the trading room away for free. So, you and I will probably have to disagree on what that's worth.

.........................

I think it just comes down to the value of success and reaching goals that have, for whatever reason, been evasive. What's that worth? A lot to some and not much to others, I suppose.

 

 

I agree with you Roger, I dont think you should be expected to teach for zero.

A person should work out what is good value, and how and what is sold for the price.

for someone wanting to dedicate their time to trading, and to following a method, fast tracking that can be worth it. The problem is I think any trader who has less than $50,000 to trade with who then spends thousands on courses has no idea about value and there fore probably cant be taught to trade.

a life time licence is cheap for anyone who uses it, but how many people use it for a life time.

I dont have a thing against gyms - same as i dont have a thing against educators....my guess is the same things happen - many join and few reach their goals.

To a large extent I dont think even all the tutoring and help will help some people trade - they either dont have the requisite, skill, will power, drive, passion or whatever it is.

 

 

As a point of clarification, we don't "sell" nor do we "upsell" and you did not experience anyone asking you for any money at any time during your time with us, did you? You implied that someone did and, if so, I want to know about it because that is strictly against our policy. I abhor upselling. Anyone preferring to be nickel and dimed to death would not find joy with FT.

 

I think you misunderstand - I felt i was upsold the whole time.....and for those that understand selling techniques its natural for you as a business to do so, and employ these techniques. Asking me for money is not the only upsell that can occur....but its still a selling technique.....you know the late night telecommercials - "wait send no money.", "we have people waiting for your call", money back guarantees......all these are designed to bring people in.

 

and all of this is largely as a result of me not really liking this, hence the subjective nature of it....it maybe appeals to some other people.

examples are such as - you will only find that out when you become a full member, there are different levels (platinum, diamonds levels), the back slapping for getting a few ticks, the we have spent so much money on these indicators etc.

It is all about up selling - I would hasten to think that this probably is the one thing that really irks people about vendors.....but its normal as you are running a business....but if you dont think you are doing it or its not deliberate, then I have to say you probably should be in marketing - your a natural!

If I was in your business I would probably do the same.

 

 

You are welcome back to our room anytime and welcome to stay for as long as you wish. Let's you and I get on Skype and chat trading sometime. I'd like that a lot.

 

thanks.....I hope I was impartial enough or disclosed my biases, and while for me the result is not a positive one I also understand others may find value in it, and I would hope that they would apply any of the ideas, red flags to any vendors or rooms they might subscribe to - this would certainly weed out the real scammers. For some people you can tell them this is a scam, and they will still invest.

I dont think you are in this category, but IMHO there are enough red flags for others to think so.

 

did you see my PM to you last week prior to posting this?

[Roger Felton 10]

I agree with you Roger, I dont think you should be expected to teach for zero.

A person should work out what is good value, and how and what is sold for the price.

for someone wanting to dedicate their time to trading, and to following a method, fast tracking that can be worth it. The problem is I think any trader who has less than $50,000 to trade with who then spends thousands on courses has no idea about value and there fore probably cant be taught to trade.

a life time licence is cheap for anyone who uses it, but how many people use it for a life time.

I dont have a thing against gyms - same as i dont have a thing against educators....my guess is the same things happen - many join and few reach their goals.

To a large extent I dont think even all the tutoring and help will help some people trade - they either dont have the requisite, skill, will power, drive, passion or whatever it is.

 

I certainly see your point...if successful long-term trading could be taught in 30 to 90 days. But, fact is, that's impossible. If someone reached consistency and reached their goals in less than a year it would be a miracle. So, when someone comes on board with me, it has to be a long-term "partnership", of sorts. I agree to trade with them for 3 hours a day, train them for 1 to 4 hours per day, and mentor them one-on-one for as often as they need for as long as they need. Their committment is to stick with it, ask lots of questions and never stop asking for help. Good formula that's worked well for years. Any trader that just wants to piddle is always encouraged to try another company. I only want to work with serious traders ready to stay the course and work. The best way to weed out the piddlers is with the fee...and it should be very reasonable.

 

I think you misunderstand - I felt i was upsold the whole time.....and for those that understand selling techniques its natural for you as a business to do so, and employ these techniques. Asking me for money is not the only upsell that can occur....but its still a selling technique.....you know the late night telecommercials - "wait send no money.", "we have people waiting for your call", money back guarantees......all these are designed to bring people in.

 

and all of this is largely as a result of me not really liking this, hence the subjective nature of it....it maybe appeals to some other people.

examples are such as - you will only find that out when you become a full member, there are different levels (platinum, diamonds levels), the back slapping for getting a few ticks, the we have spent so much money on these indicators etc.

It is all about up selling - I would hasten to think that this probably is the one thing that really irks people about vendors.....but its normal as you are running a business....but if you dont think you are doing it or its not deliberate, then I have to say you probably should be in marketing - your a natural!

If I was in your business I would probably do the same.

 

Interesting. I'm an odd duck I guess for being the kind of guy that knows how much time and effort my troops put into trading and, when all the hard work starts paying off , I congratulate them. I usually simply say, "good job", and move on. I've never had anyone take offense at that before so I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to respond.

 

"...you will only find that out when you become a full member, there are different levels (platinum, diamonds levels..." Everyone should receive our complete and open Price Sheet the very first day they log in. No smoke. No mirrors. There are only two levels...the second one being if a trader wishes to buy the software outright. Some do so we make it available.

 

I'm also surprised that you felt you were being "upsold" by the congratulatory "good job, Fred" comments. In fact, if you had decided that you really liked what we did and wanted to join up, you would have been politely and respectfully declined. So, I'm a bit confused how someone who could not be sold anything was feeling upsold.

 

Whats' really perplexing are the comments you say you heard such as, ""wait send no money.", "we have people waiting for your call", money back guarantees......", when that sort of thing is absolutely forbidden at all times at Felton Trading. I'm sorry SIUYA, but that sort of chatter just never happended on my watch.

 

The truth is, every vendor in this business can't get through a webinar or trading room session without talking about some "ACT NOW! Price Discount." Some sales tactic to put the pressure on to get people to drag out their wallets. We NEVER talk about "specials", "deals", "today only"...in fact, we never discuss price at all in any presentation we do. It's cheezy and unprofessional. Sure, if we did, we'd get more sales. But we don't and never will. So, if we're going to have a meaningful discussion, we both have to state actual facts and what actually was said. Don't you agree?

 

 

thanks.....I hope I was impartial enough or disclosed my biases, and while for me the result is not a positive one I also understand others may find value in it, and I would hope that they would apply any of the ideas, red flags to any vendors or rooms they might subscribe to - this would certainly weed out the real scammers. For some people you can tell them this is a scam, and they will still invest.

I dont think you are in this category, but IMHO there are enough red flags for others to think so.

 

I think you were as impartial as you could be. Nobody, especially myself, is totally impartial about everything. Some folks are maybe a bit over-sensitive to the meaning or intent of a comment. Here at TL, if I say, "the weather is nice outside", someone immediately accuses me of trying to be a meteorologist. It's just the nasty nature of the forum, I suppose. I sincerely appreciate the civil and professional courtesy which you have always shown me. For that, you have my total respect.

 

You recognize the slimy nature of trading vendors as a group but are willing to give an individual a break if no one who has ever invested in his services has ever complained of being scammed. Not many of us in that catagory and it's refreshing to have at least one person cut me some slack.

 

did you see my PM to you last week prior to posting this?

 

Yes, I did see that...and I responded to that. Hope you saw it. Thanks!

Edited June 24, 2012 by Roger Felton

[SIUYA 11]

Roger, (rather than re-quoting I thought it easier to list)

 

1...time to trade v cost

Yes you are correct, it takes time to learn to trade properly and I think a lot of people completely disregard this when they start the process.

Do you have statistics that you can show as a percentage how many of your students remain active after a period, who are successful - enough to make a living out of it, or to at least make a reasonable return? That sort of verifiable information might go a long way to helping people assess value for money in a course.

 

2....Up selling

As I said its a personal pet peeve of mine, and I am not sure I know of anyone who likes going into a place to be up-sold things.

Also I compared it to the late night infomercials for feel, as opposed to saying I was told those things.....let me be clear on that.....please dont make me sound like I am distorting the facts.

As I see it you are primarily in the business of making money from students, and yes you have every right to sell to them. If I dont like how that feels then that is my problem. Others might like it - this has been clearly stated. (It may also be a cultural thing - many of us not from the US dont necessarily get into the whole high five when someone takes a few ticks)

I also think that one of the things that many at forums dont like about vendors is that from some of them there is a repetitive process at work.......some do it, others dont.

 

These things can be subtle and you are even repeating it now.....with the "In fact, if you had decided that you really liked what we did and wanted to join up, you would have been politely and respectfully declined.....that is one of the techniques Bernie Maddoff used. It might be so subtle you are not even aware of it.

 

Any novice marketing student knows this. Some people have a knack for it. I can choose to ignore it which I mostly do....but it does not mean I dont like it.

 

 

3...Value

for me its ultimately about value. Now I may find value in a 50c chocolate bar, or a $50,000 watch where as others wont. Its a personal thing.

Many people will do more homework on which car they will buy for 10,000 than a stock they purchase for 100,000. Its a human trait. I also think that there are a lot of uninformed choices in regards how someone picks their trading educator, and how they are paid for....Re a separate thread here at TL...why is there no accredited trading educators self regulating association? Why are there no codes of conduct? Surely in order to best promote your own profession that might be an idea.

 

3a....Regards value and education. Many agree that trading can be taught, many agree that it's an individual thing....its a lot about process and habits. Do you as a vendor vet potential clients for what they want out of the trading and maybe recommend that they might be better applying their time with a different strategy? While its often repeated here and elsewhere its still amazing how many people dont want to do the work requried or are just not suited to certain things.

Usually when a university offers a course they tell you what commitment is required and what common traits are required from students. Just as food for thought.

 

5....PM....I did not receive anything back from you. Could you please resend. Thanks.

 

I am sure that you are valuing this as feedback....and cutting you slack is not my intention. I just dont think it is worth it to have conversations degrade too far that's all.

[Roger Felton 10]

Roger, (rather than re-quoting I thought it easier to list)

 

1...time to trade v cost

Just like any other learning institution, we don't require students to send us formal reports on how thay are doing. Most students, as you could probably tell, become good friends and, of course, will let me know how they are doing on a fairly regular basis.

 

If a trading course is offered and only 40%, for instance, make it for the long haul, most would consider that course to not be very effective. Actually, it would be exceptionally good. The majority of traders that come to me have some major obsticle(s) to overcome in addition to learning a system. Many times I've had students who were ill, or undercapitalized or emotionally handicapped, etc. and find the need to take a break...sometimes for years. Then, when their issues have been resolved, they try again and many then succeed. As I've said many times, the only traders who actually fail in their career are the ones who give up.

2....Up selling

You're probably right...it's probably a cultural thing. When someone make's their first few hundred bucks in their real trading account, they are excited. I share in that excitement and congratulate them. When a student has struggled to string winning days together, even in simulation, and then "gets it", I congratulate them. I had a student in the UK who had 58 winning days in a row before his streak was broken...I congratulated him. You see that as "upselling" and I see that as lending morale support. It's a cultural thing, I suppose.

 

I know that you are aware that I have made a committment to not take any money from any TL member, right? Any business person understands that I can't give my course, services and software away for free and stay in business. I don't know what Bernie Madoff has to do with anything. He bilked investors...he took money from trusting people. I have vowed to never accept a dime from anyone coming from here. I don't get the comparison at all.

 

It all works out. I don't want, nor can I handle a large group of students. TL members, as a whole, have an intense dislike for trading vendors. To come here looking for new clients would be totally idiotic. All I'm looking for is a forum of fair minded traders who are willing to accept me as a fellow member on my own merit. No politics, no jealousy, no venomous attacks. Ain't found it yet...

3...Value

 

When you look at the sad shape the US educational system is in, it's apparent that accreditation isn't the answer. Self-regulation probably won't work either since it would just be a case of the fox guarding the hen house...too many rotten apples in the barrel.

 

This is actually a highly regulated industry. Except for the Forex, traders have recourse when they've been scammed. Perhaps there could be something like a trader's "union" to serve as a central information gathering point to report the crooks to the appropriate agency. I don't think any dues or anything would be necessary...just organize. One guy complaining to the CFTC probably gets back-burnered...but an organization complaining on behalf of many would get some attention...probably in a hurry. Just an idea....

3a....Regards value and education.

 

Yes, trading can be taught but not on a one-size-fits-all basis. Usually, what works for one trader can work for others but often needs some tweaking for a good comfortable fit. Trading is an individual thing. Scalpers don't usually make good trend traders and vice versa. Nervous, impatient individuals should seek out a good fund manager.

 

I always vet traders. It's a nightmare to try to teach a difficult skill to someone clearly not capable of learning even the basics. Many traders who are terrible at discretionary intraday trading, might be much better suited as investors in long term strategies.

"While its often repeated here and elsewhere its still amazing how many people dont want to do the work requried or are just not suited to certain things. Usually when a university offers a course they tell you what commitment is required and what common traits are required from students. Just as food for thought."

I wish my university had told me that I would never use my EE degree for one single day in my working life. Woulda saved me 4 years and a ton of $$.

 

 

I am sure that you are valuing this as feedback....and cutting you slack is not my intention. I just dont think it is worth it to have conversations degrade too far that's all.

 

By "cutting slack" I simply meant being fair and honest. You and I may differ on some things, but you aren't calling me a "shark", "con artist" or "charlatan" without any supporting evidence. I appreciate that...it means we can communicate and possibly learn from each other.

[SIUYA 11]

Hi Roger,

I never received a message back from you as a PM, and asked again of you would send something through, so i figured it is easiest to ask here directly.....I also added a few extra questions....

 

1....in your SIM trading, do you have the Ninja trading set at a conservative level, or is it assumed that limit trades get set when touched? Also it did not appear to show commissions

 

2....can people request your brokerage accounts for real trades?

2a.... or is everything you do in SIM?

 

3...how often do you change around your parameters and trading indicators?

ie; can they be back tested or is there a fair bit of discretion?

3a....if you are constantly developing indicators (or renko bars) in order to better view the charts, how often are you changing this?

 

Thanks.

[Roger Felton 10]

Hi Roger,

I never received a message back from you as a PM, and asked again of you would send something through, so i figured it is easiest to ask here directly.....I also added a few extra questions....

 

1....in your SIM trading, do you have the Ninja trading set at a conservative level, or is it assumed that limit trades get set when touched? Also it did not appear to show commissions

 

2....can people request your brokerage accounts for real trades?

2a.... or is everything you do in SIM?

 

3...how often do you change around your parameters and trading indicators?

ie; can they be back tested or is there a fair bit of discretion?

3a....if you are constantly developing indicators (or renko bars) in order to better view the charts, how often are you changing this?

 

Thanks.

 

(1) The Ninja sim trading that I do each day is set to a very conservative level. Often, a limit order is touched several times and never filled. As for commissions, I've had individuals paying anywhere from $2 to 20 round turn. There is no standard so trying to make one up to please everyone would serve no useful purpose. Just take the number of trades times the two contracts I trade times the commission you pay and you'll get an accurate figure for your situation.

 

(2) Any trader who believes that someone's actual brokerage statements had any bearing on their personal success is in for a huge disappointment. I use to post my notarized brokerage statements for everyone to see. It had zero effect on anyone' else's results whatsoever. However, it did cause many traders to expect to achieve the same results as mine immediately. Even though I promised them they could not match my results without much practice, they felt misled when they came up short. Most traders want instant riches with little or no effort. It was a mistake and I will never do it again. They always conveniently forgot I've been trading this method for 15 years and they wanted the same results in 15 days.

 

I trade my live account every day unless the markets are particularly bad. Anyone who thinks that they're going to do exceptionally well just because I do without a hell of a lot of work is not the type of trader I care to try to teach.

 

(3) The indicators I use are the ones I've been using for years. The parameters have not changed. We do use a variety of chart types such as Line Break and Renko plus Range and Tick. Traders are left to their own discretion as to what chart type they like. The system works regardless. All the software does is take over the vast amount of mundane measuring, figuring, data crunching and anticipating dog work that formerly the trader had to do. This frees them up tremendously to focus on their training in signal selection and trade management decisions.

 

The system itself is dynamic. It is adaptive to what's going on in the market at that particular time. Anytime I develop a better, easier, clearer, more effective trading tool, I will add it to our arsenal. This does not mean that all traders MUST use it. The more powerful tools that traders have to choose from, the better chance they have, with expert guidance, to find a solid fit to their personal style and trading personality.

[MightyMouse 12]

Rodger you answers seem to be well thought out.

 

Question 2 really has only one good answer.: Yes. "Yes", I do or will provide statements. You didn't provide a "Yes". It is a very tough sell that you are protecting your students from over-expecting too much from their trading, preventing future trading casualties by not letting them view your notarized statements. I suppose their trading improved immediately when you ceased disclosing your statements.

 

I do believe that people get what they deserve and those who have paid for your services deserve exactly what you are providing them.

[SIUYA 11]

I am with MM on this....if some one was doing proper due dilligence on a trader who educates then they should be able to ask for and provided with statements. (of course these can be faked, but at least a lot of the time they can also get verified if you really wanted to - not saying anyone in particular does))

 

While yes we can all agree if you cant profitably SIM trade first, dont do it with real money....everyones story i know of usually points out that SIM trading is over optimistic and represents a better view of the real results tat you can expect.

 

If this is true what you appear to be saying here Roger is that your SIM trading is worse than your real life trading?

You will show people SIM trades but not real trades so as not to get their expectations up?

 

This does not make sense unless your SIM trading is worse than your real life trading.

[Paul-TC 10]

(2) Any trader who believes that someone's actual brokerage statements had any bearing on their personal success is in for a huge disappointment.

 

From: Traders International = SCAM ARTISTS

 

"I had initial success mostly cause i didnt trade every day and wanted to focus on my reaL busness. Id still keep logs when i could and compare with the recaps and note the numerous mistakes which i sent to Roger.. Subsequently Roger contacted me and asked if he could use my statements as a reference . I was confused and asked him why he couldnt use his own and he later admitted that he didnt trade in real time but had to focus on the classes and responding to all the students".

 

So, presumably this was after Roger decided against showing his own "notarized brokerage statements for everyone to see" - because, supposedly "it did cause many traders to expect to achieve the same results as [his] immediately".

 

But curiously, he must have believed that showing the (profitable) statements of another student would NOT have caused these very same traders to have the same, harmful expectancy !!

 

I trade my live account every day unless the markets are particularly bad.

 

Hard to know whether he does really trade a live account as his comments on the subject conflict when it suits.

 

However, it's somewhat irrelevant.

 

If someone is truly concerned about not wanting to generate unrealistic expectancy in others (as Roger claims), then there is absolutely no difference between showing a notarized statement showing consistent and frequent profits of $1,000+ a day - trading just a couple of contracts - and just banging on about the same, but unproven and unsubstantiated claim, ad nauseum, in webinars and his trade room.

 

If anything, the notarized statement would do less harm. It would be irrefutable proof that it IS being achieved, whereas the repeated, but undocumented claim allows immense room for distrust.

 

Obviously, if it isn't being achieved in a real account, then claims that it is, will create far more unrealistic expectations than showing notarized proof of its attainment. At the very least, the latter will show a prospective trader who is consistently losing using this same, supposedly successful, method that he/she needs to either:

 

1) Work harder to delevop the necessary skillset to trade the method taught (in which case, the documented proof strongly aids the 'belief system' to generate valuable motivation)

 

or

 

2) Accept the fact that trading might not be 'right' for them and to move on to something else. That acceptance will be easier and quicker if documented evidence of success clearly displays the chasm between what is possible and their own performance.

 

In short, there is absolutely no legitimate excuse, EVER, to NOT provide documented proof of the claimed profitability of a method that is being SOLD to you.

 

Investment funds show you their audited, historical performance reports. While they make it clear that past performance does not guarantee future results, they don't use the laughably transparent lie that they're worried about your unrealistic expectations as an excuse to keep details of their past performance from you. No one would invest in a fund that did, so why on earth would anyone approach it differently when buying a trading method? BTW, That's a rhetorical question. I know exactly why and so do the scammers but the desperation of others in no way exonerates the bad behavior of those who take advantage of them via smoke and mirrors. Never has, never will.

 

Any attempts to make such excuses to provide proof should override any and all the marketing schtick that is emabarrassingly obvious to all but the desperate - and the delusional hucksters who are amazed, and often even offended :haha:, by the fact that they can't fool all the people all of the time.

 

I feel like I need a shower after reading this thread - Yuck!

[Roger Felton 10]

Rodger you answers seem to be well thought out.

 

Question 2 really has only one good answer.: Yes. "Yes", I do or will provide statements. You didn't provide a "Yes". It is a very tough sell that you are protecting your students from over-expecting too much from their trading, preventing future trading casualties by not letting them view your notarized statements. I suppose their trading improved immediately when you ceased disclosing your statements.

 

I do believe that people get what they deserve and those who have paid for your services deserve exactly what you are providing them.

 

I think you may have missed the point. Among prospective students, there are two schools of thought. The majority understand that, if they get the knowledge they need and the training they need plus the mentorship they need on a daily basis, then there should be nothing stopping them from achieving any success level they wish. Discovering whether a trader/teacher has the skill set to deliver that is what due diligence is all about.

 

I know that a lot of traders believe that due diligence gives them the right to delve into my personal finances as if they were an IRS agent, but it doesn't. If anyone wants to know if I can trade, they can watch me for 3 hours a day every day for a year if they wish. Anyone of modest intelligence should be able to establish that fact in much less time than that. I can spot a phony trading wannabe just by watching them for a couple of hours...anyone can.

 

My point here is that providing trading statements (which I used to do so I know what I'm talking about) is not only a personal invasion of privacy, but it accomplishes nothing. Think about it. Assuming you went to college, how many of your professors did you demand to see their tax returns to see how much money they made as an engineer, or attorney, marine biologist, etc. None, right? You were there for knowledge and a degree. They provide that and you took it from there.

 

But, in some people's minds, trading is different. Really?

 

Having to provide my personal financial information on demand to anyone who wants it is not only absurd, it would be an exercise in ignorance. Who really believes that, just because I make a good living trading, that then must be some sort of guarantee of success? If I wasn't already a darn good trader, I could not have stayed in business for 15 years. The issue is, can I teach that skill to others? I do it every day.

 

Providing a financial statement would prove two things. It would prove that I can trade. But I already prove that every day to anyone who cares to watch and ask questions. Secondly, it would prove that I had the emotional control and confidence to make a good consistent living as a professional trader. Sorry to say it guys but Focus, Patience, Discipline, and Confidence aren't sell-able commodities. They come from hard work, practice and experience...not from my financial statements. There is no correlation.

 

The psychological requirements of trading don't "rub off" and it do not come in a bottle. If I had to go through that just to be able to help someone, no thanks. I'd rather just trade.

[SIUYA 11]

Roger, no one is asking for your financial statements like the IRS.

 

Bernie Maddoff supplied all the documentation in the world for some and look what happened there.

It is also not an invasion of privacy when you make a claim, base a business on it and dont provide evidence of that. Hedge fund managers are generally taken a lot more seriously if they prove they have skin in the game - just saying you do and not backing it up is a red flag. (this may be on a different scale but whats the difference?)

 

The point is the same - if an educator says they trade in real life and then only ever show SIM results or trading, I think that counts for a lot.

 

As an educator and with many years experience I think you must realise that people do approach the two differently.....

(swing a bat, a club, a racket while practising is one thing, in the real game its a different thing)

 

Look .....I dont have a problem if an educator just teaches, I think that is fine, but if they say they trade live then asking for live results is entirely appropriate and fair.

 

Maybe we can agree to disagree but I view it as a red flag.