Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

JT1

Volatility & the Recession. Is Volatility Here to Stay for Some Time Yet?

Recommended Posts

Hi

 

i dont know about anyone else, but i love this volatility. EURUSD is moving 40-50 pips in a matter of minutes/seconds. Today has seen a 400 pip downwards spiral.

 

EURUSD is behaving like cable used to before the volatility came about, and obviously this presents better profit potential.

 

I put this volatility down to the fact that due to the credit crunch, there are less interbank participants with less cash to splash, leading to less volume in the market, and as a result, the liquidity is thin, and price moves quickly.

 

Whereas a few months ago, before the crunch, the ranges were tighter, price movements were slower and smaller, due to the bigger volume/deeper liquidity & a greater number of interbank participants moving foreign exchange prices.

 

Assuming my theory is at least partially correct.....My question is -

 

Is this increased volatility likely to extend for some time yet, as the recession mounts & continues? Can we look forward to recent standards of volatity becoming the norm during the recession, & thus for the forseeable future?

 

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi JT1,

 

Sorry I didnt notice this post till now. I share the same thoughts with you... there are fewer institutional traders due to the credit crunch. Also, banks have cut alot of their risks by diminishing position size. As a result we are seeing few lots per institutional trader causing the bid/ask to remain thinner than before. This causes price to jump easily.

 

For example Nikkei bid/ask used to be 1000 lots back in the late 80's. Since the bubble burst the bid/ask was down to around 200 - 300 lots. However, up until the credit crisis volatility was rather low compared to markets elsewhere. I think one of the elements that cause volatility is that what used to be dominated by big boys trading in lets say 100 lots... now you have the same traders trading in 20-30 lots while some are still trading in 100 lots. As a result, when the 100 lot trader comes into the market he can easily take out 4-5 levels on his own.

 

However, seeing the Nikkei stabilize since the crash (before the credit crunch) my assumption is that with enough time people adjust accordingly and volatility will go back to the norm. Im no expert in this field but since traders will reduce their position sizes accordingly to volatility.. I do think its only a matter of time before volatility settles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks ST.

 

I wonder if wer are likely to see some spot forex brokers will try widening the spreads, eg. saying that it is no longer feasible to offer a 2 pip eurusd spread, IF the current level of thin liquidity/volatility continues?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This isn't exactly FX related but since they are all so coupled up lately -

 

“The Volatility Index is at an important "Pivot Point". Yesterday, it closed on a critical 4 week support line...

time to pay close attention to what happens on the VIX. ...VIX has a correlation with the daily amount of Institutional Buying and Selling and more specifically ... the SPREAD distance between the two that occurs. So, the VIX's action will also be an indirect reflection of Institutional activity in the next two days…” Marty Chenard

 

Imo, the 'nervous breakdown' is not over, but the patient may be settling down enough to move from the crisis unit over to the regular psyche ward... don't be surprised by occasional episodic exacerbations though...

VIX081103.png.ae8ea9995403f718a4a4ae3e803feefc.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My own suspicion (for stock indexes) is that volatility will drop way back. STW is at getting down to half its peak price so even if nothing else happens you might suspect intraday range will scale down to half. SPI has had a nice range all year - but in 2002 it used to do 20-30 points a day. I like at least 60 pt daily ranges and would prefer 100 points.

 

So, I am collecting HSI data again (range got too large for me from August last year; but used to typically be under 200 points a day) and thinking about some 4 hourly forex pairs. A trader doesn't have to know what will happen - just how they will respond :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  Kiwi said:
My own suspicion (for stock indexes) is that volatility will drop way back. ... A trader doesn't have to know what will happen - just how they will respond :)

 

Yep - I reverted back to 'normal' platform / chart setups last Thursday at around noon for indexes... what a wonderful couple months it has been...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It will probably be a year before we see the market settle down, and even then, we are going to see more fall out as the global depression works its way through each country.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if wer are likely to see some spot forex brokers will try widening the spreads, eg. saying that it is no longer feasible to offer a 2 pip eurusd spread, IF the current level of thin liquidity/volatility continues?

 

I wonder that too many times the spreads are better than the underlying market (well the bit I can get a glimpse of through IB).

 

I think they (the bookies) probably do better in these conditions all the time the punters don't widen their stops or don't widen them enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect, Blowfish, that bucketshop spreads can be better than the underlying because either they're fading the bulk of their losing customers (like good bookies) or because the mix of customers somehow allows it. I guess you'd have to plot the real time difference between the bs and ib say and analyze whether they're altering it somehow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have heard this statement many places" Institutions have cut back on their overall trading size and that the Bid/Ask is thiner then before, thus causing volatile markets".

 

Im curious...then why has the volume, e.g. on the Daily charts of Emni's, increased so much durring this extreme volatile period.

Anyone care to take a stab at this?

 

 

 

Regards..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pappo

 

Volume never lies.

 

However, we must associate higher volume to much higher daily ranges.

 

For instance, back in 2005-6 ES average daily range used to be around 10-12 pts if I am not mistaken. A tight range means bid/ask levels are somewhat stable and there are flowing orders in both directions that pretty much even each other out, making the range a tight one.

 

In 2008, ES average daily range increased dramatically. We've seen 100pt-range days a few times this year.

 

It's normal to have big volume spikes and more participation in a wide-range day simply because the market trades at many different levels; each trading level may represent an opportunity for either buyers and/or sellers, so the more levels the more interesting it gets.

 

There were times a couple of years ago when ES couldn't cover 100pts within a single month. This year it's been able to do it in one single session!

 

This should answer one part of your question.

 

However, if volume is much higher, why are the levels thinner?

 

Simply because all that big volume is spread out over a huge range.

 

In fact, it'd be correct to compare total volume vs daily range and come up with a number like "average volume per ES pt"

 

For example, day 1 has a range of 10 ES pts with a 1M volume. Average volume per ES pt would be 100K.

 

Day 2 has a range of 100 ES pts with a 5M volume. Average volume per ES pt would be 50K.

 

Although day 2 produced amazing volume, it also produced an amazing range.

 

Hope this answers your question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ItalianSharp,

 

In hindsight i.e. after reading your explanation, what you said makes sense to me and its simple .

 

I have learned to stay so focused on my trade plan ...Trade setups and block everything else out e.g. why we have high or low volatility. The problem with that is that your brain only thinks of supply and demand and has a hard time figuring out anything else, curse of the screen trader I guess :)

 

Great Explanation....Thanks

Edited by sep34

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree saying volatility may take still more time on this market. keep in mind the economy crisis around the world and actions required to recover it. Then, we have to face unexpected performances in the market and have a plan to know what to do as traders

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Thx for reminding us... I don't bang that drum often enough anymore Another part for consideration is who that money initially went to...
    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
    • How long does it take to receive HFM's withdrawal via Skrill? less than 24H?
    • My wife Robin just wanted some groceries.   Simple enough.   She parked the car for fifteen minutes, and returned to find a huge scratch on the side.   Someone keyed her car.   To be clear, this isn’t just any car.   It’s a Cybertruck—Elon Musk's stainless-steel spaceship on wheels. She bought it back in 2021, before Musk became everyone's favorite villain or savior.   Someone saw it parked in a grocery lot and felt compelled to carve their hatred directly into the metal.   That's what happens when you stand out.   Nobody keys a beige minivan.   When you're polarizing, you're impossible to ignore. But the irony is: the more attention something has, the harder it is to find the truth about it.   What’s Elon Musk really thinking? What are his plans? What will happen with DOGE? Is he deserving of all of this adoration and hate? Hard to say.   Ideas work the same way.   Take tariffs, for example.   Tariffs have become the Cybertrucks of economic policy. People either love them or hate them. Even if they don’t understand what they are and how they work. (Most don’t.)   That’s why, in my latest podcast (link below), I wanted to explore the “in-between” truth about tariffs.   And like Cybertrucks, I guess my thoughts on tariffs are polarizing.   Greg Gutfield mentioned me on Fox News. Harvard professors hate me now. (I wonder if they also key Cybertrucks?)   But before I show you what I think about tariffs… I have to mention something.   We’re Headed to Austin, Texas This weekend, my team and I are headed to Austin. By now, you should probably know why.   Yes, SXSW is happening. But my team and I are doing something I think is even better.   We’re putting on a FREE event on “Tech’s Turning Point.”   AI, quantum, biotech, crypto, and more—it’s all on the table.   Just now, we posted a special webpage with the agenda.   Click here to check it out and add it to your calendar.   The Truth About Tariffs People love to panic about tariffs causing inflation.   They wave around the ghost of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff from the Great Depression like it’s Exhibit A proving tariffs equal economic collapse.   But let me pop this myth:   Tariffs don’t cause inflation. And no, I'm not crazy (despite what angry professors from Harvard or Stanford might tweet at me).   Here's the deal.   Inflation isn’t when just a couple of things become pricier. It’s when your entire shopping basket—eggs, shirts, Netflix subscriptions, bananas, everything—starts costing more because your money’s worth less.   Inflation means your dollars aren’t stretching as far as they used to.   Take the 1800s.   For nearly a century, 97% of America’s revenue came from tariffs. Income tax? Didn’t exist. And guess what inflation was? Basically zero. Maybe 1% a year.   The economy was booming, and tariffs funded nearly everything. So, why do people suddenly think tariffs cause inflation today?   Tariffs are taxes on imports, yes, but prices are set by supply and demand—not tariffs.   Let me give you a simple example.   Imagine fancy potato chips from Canada cost $10, and a 20% tariff pushes that to $12. Everyone panics—prices rose! Inflation!   Nope.   If I only have $100 to spend and the price of my favorite chips goes up, I either stop buying chips or I buy, say, fewer newspapers.   If everyone stops buying newspapers because they’re overspending on chips, newspapers lower their prices or go out of business.   Overall spending stays the same, and inflation doesn’t budge.   Three quick scenarios:   We buy pricier chips, but fewer other things: Inflation unchanged. Manufacturers shift to the U.S. to avoid tariffs: Inflation unchanged (and more jobs here). We stop buying fancy chips: Prices drop again. Inflation? Still unchanged. The only thing that actually causes inflation is printing money.   Between 2020 and 2022 alone, 40% of all money ever created in history appeared overnight.   That’s why inflation shot up afterward—not because of tariffs.   Back to tariffs today.   Still No Inflation Unlike the infamous Smoot-Hawley blanket tariff (imagine Oprah handing out tariffs: "You get a tariff, and you get a tariff!"), today's tariffs are strategic.   Trump slapped tariffs on chips from Taiwan because we shouldn’t rely on a single foreign supplier for vital tech components—especially if that supplier might get invaded.   Now Taiwan Semiconductor is investing $100 billion in American manufacturing.   Strategic win, no inflation.   Then there’s Canada and Mexico—our friendly neighbors with weirdly huge tariffs on things like milk and butter (299% tariff on butter—really, Canada?).   Trump’s not blanketing everything with tariffs; he’s pressuring trade partners to lower theirs.   If they do, everybody wins. If they don’t, well, then we have a strategic trade chess game—but still no inflation.   In short, tariffs are about strategy, security, and fairness—not inflation.   Yes, blanket tariffs from the Great Depression era were dumb. Obviously. Today's targeted tariffs? Smart.   Listen to the whole podcast to hear why I think this.   And by the way, if you see a Cybertruck, don’t key it. Robin doesn’t care about your politics; she just likes her weird truck.   Maybe read a good book, relax, and leave cars alone.   (And yes, nobody keys Volkswagens, even though they were basically created by Hitler. Strange world we live in.) Source: https://altucherconfidential.com/posts/the-truth-about-tariffs-busting-the-inflation-myth    Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/       
    • No, not if you are comparing apples to apples. What we call “poor” is obviously a pretty high bar but if you’re talking about like a total homeless shambling skexie in like San Fran then, no. The U.S.A. in not particularly kind to you. It is not an abuse so much as it is a sad relatively minor consequence of our optimism and industriousness.   What you consider rich changes with circumstances obviously. If you are genuinely poor in the U.S.A., you experience a quirky hodgepodge of unhelpful and/or abstract extreme lavishnesses while also being alienated from your social support network. It’s about the same as being a refugee. For a fraction of the ‘kindness’ available to you in non bio-available form, you could have simply stayed closer to your people and been MUCH better off.   It’s just a quirk of how we run the place and our values; we are more worried about interfering with people’s liberty and natural inclination to do for themselves than we are about no bums left behind. It is a slightly hurtful position and we know it; we are just scared to death of socialism cancer and we’re willing to put our money where our mouth is.   So, if you’re a bum; you got 5G, the ER will spend like $1,000,000 on you over a hangnail but then kick you out as soon as you’re “stabilized”, the logistics are surpremely efficient, you have total unchecked freedom of speech, real-estate, motels, and jobs are all natural healthy markets in perfect competition, you got compulsory three ‘R’’s, your military owns the sky, sea, space, night, information-space, and has the best hairdos, you can fill out paper and get all the stuff up to and including a Ph.D. Pretty much everything a very generous, eager, flawless go-getter with five minutes to spare would think you might need.   It’s worse. Our whole society is competitive and we do NOT value or make any kumbaya exception. The last kumbaya types we had werr the Shakers and they literally went extinct. Pueblo peoples are still around but they kind of don’t count since they were here before us. So basically, if you’re poor in the U.S.A., you are automatically a loser and a deadbeat too. You will be treated as such by anybody not specifically either paid to deal with you or shysters selling bejesus, Amway, and drugs. Plus, it ain’t safe out there. Not everybody uses muhfreedoms to lift their truck, people be thugging and bums are very vulnerable here. The history of a large mobile workforce means nobody has a village to go home to. Source: https://askdaddy.quora.com/Are-the-poor-people-in-the-United-States-the-richest-poor-people-in-the-world-6   Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/ 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.