Secrets of Traders Rant!

[GetMoney 10]

Well I finally made what I thought was going to be a great investment. Maybe it was the fancy floor trader jacket he wears or the claims of 6k a month in their trading room. Or maybe it was the fact that CNBC frequently interviews him as if he actually knows what he's talking about. But the fact is I was idiotic enough to shell out 6500 to Larry Levin at secrets of traders! The term 'Secrets' is misleading being that everything in this course is well known and widely discussed on this forum (Value Area, Engulfments etc). I see now that their head traders in the chat rooms aren't making money but consistently losing. And after reviewing their newletters for the past few months which posts daily profit and losses I see that this is nothing new. Why did I not notice this before? I've actually lost less money than them over that same period. I'm not blaming anyone but myself. I wanted to take the easy road and got suckered. Forgive my rant but I am an emotional mess right now because I had to borrow that money from my parents on the advice of the secrets salesman. I should have known they were fakes when they ask me to call and act as a reference to a prospective customer even before I received the course in the mail. They said to say I was satisfied and making money for the last 4 months. For this I got free time in their chatroom which turned out to be a joke. I'm posting this to get it off my chest and also to warn other vulnerable newbies to save their money. Geeze I'm stupid!

[Bearbull 10]

Sorry to hear that pal, you should get enough free info here to get you on the right path provided you are prepared to put in some effort and not seeking a black box get rich quick system.

I have consistently made effort to save newcomers such pain , to see their hard earned cash going down the drain after having enticed by glossy websites, and latest jargon.

 

Anyway stick around, have a good look at the Wyckoff and Candlestick forums, there is invaluable material there.

[brownsfan019 17]

It's a process we all go through in some form - you pay for your education in the markets to vendors, the markets or both.

 

Depending on when you bought, if you used a credit card, you could always try a chargeback. Doesn't cost you anything but does cost the vendor. You may not get your $ back, but at least you put a little mark on their credit processing.

[GetMoney 10]

Thanks it's somewhat comforting to know I'm not the only one whose been through this. Like you say it's just apart of my tuition I suppose. One thing is for sure: I'm not giving up here!

[trader273 10]

I saw Larry on CNBC one morning and decided to check out his site. I signed up for the free results they send out every night. I think if I went back and tracked every single day they would be tremendously down. And then I kept getting emails, how the price was going up soon, and I had to "Act now". I call that infomercial marketing. When I see something like that, its and instant red flag.

 

However, many people fall prey to this type of marketing. As long as one learns from this mistake, and more importantly never do it again, they should be fine.

 

I guess the real secret that old Larry boy has discovered, is to start a website that can fleece newbies and people struggling. If a method truly works, no one would sell it. No man, woman, or :haha: chip. It wouldn't make sense. Why not trade your own money, start a CTA or CPO. Truth is that the "method" is shit, or very basic at that and if their own money and/or ass was on the line the method would choke.

 

Buyer beware, no where is that more appropriate then the day trading ring.

[CandleWhisperer 10]

I am no fan of CNBC (Can Never Be Correct). For one thing, they cheer lead when the Dow is up 500 pts and then act like they just lost their best friend when its down 500 pts. News flash: there is somebody on both sides of a trade. IN BOTH CASES there is a big winner and a big loser.

 

Anyway, I do find it hard to believe that CNBC would have someone on that is not a "proven" successful trader. I don't know if his methods work or not, but I would think reporters would do enough do diligence to know if the guy is on the up and up.

[brownsfan019 17]

but I would think reporters would do enough do diligence to know if the guy is on the up and up.

 

And that is a bad assumption.

 

I'll give you an example - when I was a broker, I wrote a weekly article for the local newspaper. It helped business and made me look like an expert b/c the paper was obviously endorsing me.

 

I also advertised in the paper.

 

The deal I had with the paper was I would advertise IF I also got that weekly article...

 

And they jumped on the deal to get me advertising weekly. They did ZERO 'due diligence' on me as they just wanted my advertising dollars.

 

Moral of the story: the 'unbiased' news media is not unbiased at all in many cases. It's easy to buy the story you want or publicity you are looking for. After all, the media is in the business of making money as well.

[GetMoney 10]

Yeah, one of the things that really stood out to me was how 'infomercial' their gimmicky sales pitches were. And they reminded me of cheap car salesmen when I spoke with them on the phone. I just wanted to believe it was the real deal so badly that I overlooked all of these things. A wiser person would have heeded their own instincts. I urge others to learn from my mistake.

[MC 10]

Yeah, one of the things that really stood out to me was how 'infomercial' their gimmicky sales pitches were. And they reminded me of cheap car salesmen when I spoke with them on the phone. I just wanted to believe it was the real deal so badly that I overlooked all of these things. A wiser person would have heeded their own instincts. I urge others to learn from my mistake.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm sure it will help quite a few people.

Someone mentioned it, I would suggest the same thing...try to stop payment or go through the BBB to get some resolve or at least a partial refund.

[Soultrader 12]

Thanks for sharing your experience as well. This is something many starting traders get caught up in... my first year in trading I shed out over $7,000 in trading books just to find 90% of them absolutely useless!

 

But sometimes I wonder.. was the wasted money just a step to figure what I know now?

[brownsfan019 17]

Thanks for sharing your experience as well. This is something many starting traders get caught up in... my first year in trading I shed out over $7,000 in trading books just to find 90% of them absolutely useless!

 

But sometimes I wonder.. was the wasted money just a step to figure what I know now?

 

And that James is the key I think. I was there too - books, videos, etc. etc.

 

Was it all part of the journey? I think so.

 

1) You read anything you can.

2) You begin your search for the grail.

3) Keep searching, b/c it's gotta be out there!

4) Maybe need to dig deeper to find it.

5) Might be time to quit since there is no grail and ATM machine readily available.

6) Those that keep pushing forward finally figure out that there is no grail; nor is there a need for one. What you need is a way to consistently pull money from the markets whether that is 50 trades a day or 1. You find yourself and find what works for you. What works for you, very well will not work for others; hence the reason those books, vendors, etc. may not have worked for you initially.

7) And then one day you might realize that you did find the grail (for you) but it doesn't 'feel' like a grail. It feels like a job well done after years of hard work.

[Eiger 10]

Well I finally made what I thought was going to be a great investment. Maybe it was the fancy floor trader jacket he wears or the claims of 6k a month in their trading room. Or maybe it was the fact that CNBC frequently interviews him as if he actually knows what he's talking about. But the fact is I was idiotic enough to shell out 6500 to Larry Levin at secrets of traders! The term 'Secrets' is misleading being that everything in this course is well known and widely discussed on this forum (Value Area, Engulfments etc). I see now that their head traders in the chat rooms aren't making money but consistently losing. And after reviewing their newletters for the past few months which posts daily profit and losses I see that this is nothing new. Why did I not notice this before? I've actually lost less money than them over that same period. I'm not blaming anyone but myself. I wanted to take the easy road and got suckered. Forgive my rant but I am an emotional mess right now because I had to borrow that money from my parents on the advice of the secrets salesman. I should have known they were fakes when they ask me to call and act as a reference to a prospective customer even before I received the course in the mail. They said to say I was satisfied and making money for the last 4 months. For this I got free time in their chatroom which turned out to be a joke. I'm posting this to get it off my chest and also to warn other vulnerable newbies to save their money. Geeze I'm stupid!

 

A similar experience happened to me. I spent $5,000 plus another $1,000 in travel expenses to attend a 2-day seminar on "profitunity." I was going to learn the inside secrets on chaos theory as applied to the markets! What a waste. Just a rehash of indicators, Elliott Wave, and dated psychology. What was worse is that I proceeded to trade it and lost over $30k. What is even worse than that is that I decided I wasn't knowledgable enough in Elliott Wave and hired an "expert" consultant to teach it to me. That was another $3,000 plus phone bills. What is worse is that I then proceeded to trade this and lost another $25k.

 

At least you are smart enough to recognize when you are duped. It takes some of us a while before we understand that part

 

Like others have said, we all seem to have to go through this, unless we are very lucky and have some decent mentoring early on (it is one of the many values of a site like this - Thank you, James).

 

After I got over the pain of the losses and the humiliation, and rebuilt my trading account by working a night job, I vowed that I would "show those ***kers" that i could learn trading. I made my mission to beat them, even though they would never know. Probably not the best attitude to adopt, but it did channel the anger I had (and I had a lot).

 

It helped. Whenever I felt like giving up, I remembered how I was taken and how I didn't believe in myself enough. That restoked the fire and kept me going. In some ways, I think that if it had been easier and less painful, I wouldn't have gotten to be a decent trader.

 

So, FWIW, I don't think you were stupid at all. You were just pursuing a dream and willing to go way out on a limb and borrow money to harness that dream. I'd say you have the deck stacked in your favor, but it takes a fair amount of effort. The past, as they say, is dead and never to be resurrected. Don't dwell there. It is what you do next that's important.

 

Eiger

[Kiwi 16]

I agree with both of Brownsfan's posts.

 

It is part of the journey. I find even now that knowing how other people might trade helps me with my own fine tuning so even making Amazon's top customer list was not wasted. I don't think I quite made $7,000 though James.

 

On the media. Its not just when they swap adverts for "educational articles." A decade back I was a marketing manager with a good advertising budget so got to know a few editors fairly well. The problem is that they pay peanuts ... and get monkeys. If you really knew the markets you'd be an analyst. If you knew them and could trade them you'd be a trader. Journalists generally want to be journalists and the technical columns are filled by journos who also have a little knowledge in their specialty area. And we all know that "a little knowledge is a ........ ...."

[BlowFish 10]

You should have asked! That was one I got suckered by many years ago. Possibly one of the most disappointing trading purchases I have made. Really half baked.

[Bearbull 10]

You should have asked! That was one I got suckered by many years ago. Possibly one of the most disappointing trading purchases I have made. Really half baked.

 

Good to hear from you again. If I recall you had similar experience with the other Guru Joel Pozen.

 

Then ofcourse there is your favourite Professional trader and VSA expert, thought you had actually gone to ASPEN for the $10k course, anyway another coming up in California:rofl:

[BlowFish 10]

Good to hear from you again. If I recall you had similar experience with the other Guru Joel Pozen.

 

Then ofcourse there is your favourite Professional trader and VSA expert, thought you had actually gone to ASPEN for the $10k course, anyway another coming up in California:rofl:

 

Hehe, now now, no need to rub salt into the wounds!!:o:o

 

You know I am still prone to be a sucker - though I have made a couple of decent purchases recently (mainly due to decent appraisals from people I respect here). I do think that a certain "professional trader and VSA expert" has reached an all time low which is a shame as there is some merit to some of the core concepts. It's a real shame. Fortunately people like Eiger are doing an absolurely bang up job over in the VSA thread.

[Bearbull 10]

Hehe, now now, no need to rub salt into the wounds!!:o:o

 

You know I am still prone to be a sucker - though I have made a couple of decent purchases recently (mainly due to decent appraisals from people I respect here). I do think that a certain "professional trader and VSA expert" has reached an all time low which is a shame as there is some merit to some of the core concepts. It's a real shame. Fortunately people like Eiger are doing an absolurely bang up job over in the VSA thread.

 

Funny you should say that, thought the word "WYCKOFF" on that thread was a taboo,mere mention used to ignite confrontation, however lately there is more on Wyckoff than VSA there. We all know VSA is derived from Wyckoff and Eiger is indeed making positive contribution. However in Wyckoff there are only a few principles whereas this has all been simplified to over 400 indicators via VSA jargon.

 

Anyway the Professional trader and VSA expert has managed to enrol Hank Pruden for the "VSA 4 day summit" in San Francisco" so get your cheque book out, there is an easy payment plan, last time in London, Chicago and Las Vegas, the secret setups were of the ordinary kind, however this time, advanced secrets along with state of the art psychological techniques shall be revealed. But first you will have to sign a NON DISCLOSURE contract:rofl:

[trader273 10]

I actually got an email, now they have a secrets of forex traders program. Maybe this one will be legit. :rofl:

[sevensa 10]

However in Wyckoff there are only a few principles whereas this has all been simplified to over 400 indicators via VSA jargon.

 

You are confusing VSA, the methodology with Tradeguider, the vendor. If a vendor come out to market Wyckoff more aggressively and add their twist to it with new jargon, will you also conclude then that Wyckoff is complicated? Actually, it sounds like SMI already has done that. Does this mean Wyckoff is not as simple as you make it sound if SMI felt the need to additional information to the original material?

[Bearbull 10]

Here we go again, actually I was responding to Blowfish:)

 

There is no confusion on my part whatsoever, if folks think that VSA methodology is somehow separately disseminated from Tradeguider software, seminars, cds, dvds etc, then they are deluding themselves, there is no separate Tradeguider, the Vendor,

Tradeguider is the new glossy title for the old VSA charting program marketed in U.K upto 2002, without much success, then it was revived and taken to US for the real glossy marketing. Tom Williams is still wheeled out in every seminar and course and the same jargon propagated drawing in hundreds of wannabe traders into the smart money/dumb money circle, all trying to figure out what every bar means;) Now "Master the Markets" is offered upfront free of charge prior to the trader gradually being drawn in and directed to the merits of owning the software and then enrolling for the various course, VSA clubs to get further educated and all the time being told " We are not a software company, we are here to help you":o

All Tom williams has to state is after going through his books , get hold of the wyckoff course (SMI or the original) for better understanding of the source from which he got the ideas in the first place, it is as simple as that.

 

Sevensa, I have no desire to enter into any arguments, here or on the VSA thread , you should find likeminded folks on the VSA thread to engage in the daily VSA analysis bar by bar , I was merely communicating with Blowfish here. If you find VSA useful on a consistent basis, then all the best to you.

[sevensa 10]

I find it annoying when people think their way is the only correct way and cannot pass up an opportunity to jab at any other methods they don't agree with and probably don't understand either. If you found something which work for you, then good for you, but this is no reason to constantly thrash other methods every chance you get. I really don't see the purpose of that.

 

Yes, you are correct that there is a VSA thread for like minded people. Just as there also is a thread to thrash VSA all you want. (http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f151/vsa-crock-or-not-3736.html) There is no need to constantly bring up your displeasure with VSA in your posts.

 

Since you know so much about what is going on at the Tradeguider seminars and about their DVD's and videos, apparently you have spent a lot of money and time learning VSA and were not successful with it otherwise you would not constantly jab at it. Just because you are not successful with a method, does not make it a bad method.

 

Tradeguider have to make VSA sound more complicated than it is, otherwise they have nothing to sell. That goes for pretty much any vendor.

[Bearbull 10]

We are a trading group and have a thorough understanding of VSA and original Wyckoff. hence am in a position to state what I state with a view to saving any newcomer, even one , his/her hard earned money and direct them to the true source.

We constantly get bombarded with emails from TG since 2002 and we know many traders who also receive their latest offers.

 

VSA statements are just snippets i.e markets do not like upbars on high vol, (define high vol), the signals appear in varying intensity etc, sounds good but hollow, their is no systematic methodology, the trader is left confused and full of jargon, hence we have over 300pages in 2 threads trying to unravel the mysteries on an ongoing basis. Since this thread was started by GM who felt cheated, I deemed it necessary to state what I stated here and have no desire to migrate to a VSA bashing corner;)

 

A newcomer could invest in the SMI Wyckoff course and it would be money well spent and then undertake a thorough study of the various principles which have been explained in a systematic and methodical manner in the course.

If you take the trouble to study the course, you will understand what is being said here, however if you haven't then this whole discussion is pointless.

Whether we are successful or not is between us and our bank manager, once again if you are making money on a consistent basis via VSA , nobody is asking you to give that up for Wyckoff or any other methodology.

Looks newcomers have to be wary of both vendors and their staunch and fanatic disciples:rofl:

[sevensa 10]

Looks newcomers have to be wary of both vendors and their staunch and fanatic disciples:rofl:

 

Exactly. That includes Wyckoff disciples as Wyckoff is not the only way to trade as you would like newcomers to believe. This is just a method which works for you, but doesn't mean it will work for them. Just like VSA works for other people, but not for you.

[james_gsx 16]

This is completely off topic, but not really. I was driving to work the other money listening to the morning show on the radio. They were going over some of the random/funny news, and the president of Extenze (I think, it started with an E) was sentenced to jail for some 25 years because of false advertising. Apparently he thought everyone would be too embarrassed to come forward and say it didn't enhance their special part :rofl:

 

Nonetheless, it made me think of all the trading programs that are out there that really do the same thing. They know it doesn't work, but they'll suck you in and take your money. When you claim it didn't work, they'll just say you did something wrong. Oh well, there will always be demand for that kind of market, so someone has to supply it regardless of how ethical it really is. Now, I really think there are some good services out there and people who legitimately want to help. There will always be a few who are great traders, and great teachers who love to teach. Unfortunately, they are few and far between.

 

Good luck to the OP, and you should be proud that you are still willing to trade and move forward.

[BlowFish 10]

Funny you should say that, thought the word "WYCKOFF" on that thread was a taboo,mere mention used to ignite confrontation, however lately there is more on Wyckoff than VSA there. We all know VSA is derived from Wyckoff and Eiger is indeed making positive contribution. However in Wyckoff there are only a few principles whereas this has all been simplified to over 400 indicators via VSA jargon.

 

Anyway the Professional trader and VSA expert has managed to enrol Hank Pruden for the "VSA 4 day summit" in San Francisco" so get your cheque book out, there is an easy payment plan, last time in London, Chicago and Las Vegas, the secret setups were of the ordinary kind, however this time, advanced secrets along with state of the art psychological techniques shall be revealed. But first you will have to sign a NON DISCLOSURE contract:rofl:

 

Funny how Tradeguider have taken Williams half a dozen or so simple (and quite Whyckoffian) principles and simplified them into 400 indicators. Still glad you find it amusing. Makes me and and a little bit and just a touch :puke:. The videos are a bit like train wreck TV I watch now and then out of morbid curiosity. Nowadays the 'shock horror market manipulation' BS pretty much dominates anything useful. I guess that's what sells software books courses symposiums Gavin Holmes action figures etc.