Balancing Your Life and Surviving the Learning Curve

[RobinHood 10]

In my opinion the early stages of a traders learning curve are the most difficult.

 

While a trader will always face the difficulty of adapting to markets and evolving, he will only once face what I consider the most difficult part once. I call it 'The coming of profitability' stage.

 

For most people, starting out will mean countless hours and devotion to the market. Not only do you lose money, but when you make money it is hardly proportionate to the effort (read: blood sweat tears) that has been put into making it. (Exception being a paid/non-paid trainee prop trader).

 

Once you have overcome this most difficult early period things are much easier. I'm not speaking from personal experience, but just what I've seen - so if some professional traders would like to chip in here.

 

Up till now I've put in countless hours into trading for years. Over the last year I have averaged 4 hours+ a day and on top of that have been working as a waiter/assistant 3-4 days a week. Some days from 6am. As you can imagine, it is not only money that I've lost. The only thing that has kept me going is a passion/obsession for the markets.

For those of you who are trading professionally:

How did you find the initial stages of your learning curve? (not from the perspective of trading skills, but its affect on your life)

how did you balance your life?

how many hours did you put in every day?

How do you find balancing your life today? - surely it is much easier to go snowboarding in the alps or to take loved ones out to luxury dinner when your actually making money.

 

Although this is mainly directed to people who began as I did - at home - I would still be interested in hearing from those who began under different conditions.

 

 

For those still aiming for moon:

How do you find balancing your life?

What are you finding most difficult?

How many hours are you putting in every day?

 

I've found that for me balance has been minimal. I try to go to boxing twice a week and if I don't have an early shift the next day or boxing I'll go out. I have enough money (trading capital) to bust on plenty of overseas holidays with friends but I just feel like I can't give it up.

 

Sometimes I find myself questioning whether this is all a waste. Why not spend all the money I made and just join a wage-paying proprietary firm or IB after college (4 years)?

 

I'm an extremely self-critical person, but I know that if I stick with what I'm doing long enough I will be a gun. I will hit the moon.

Edited August 26, 2008 by RobinHood

[brownsfan019 17]

Let me preface by saying that I was a stockbroker for 4.5 years prior to making the move to full-time trading. I believe that experience was vital to my survival as a full-time trader.

 

How did you find the initial stages of your learning curve? (not from the perspective of trading skills, but its affect on your life)

 

Initially it was rather easy for me - either I was going in 100% or I was not going to do it. 100% meant up early, study/learn and to bed late. Just as I did as a rookie broker. Up before the sun and to bed long after the sun had set.

 

how did you balance your life?

In the beginning, it was all about trading and that's it. Mon-Fri was all markets, all the time. Weekends were meant to take a breather, but much study was done there as well.

 

how many hours did you put in every day?

 

Too many too count. Again, up early and to bed late with breaks for food in between. That's about it.

 

How do you find balancing your life today? - surely it is much easier to go snowboarding in the alps or to take loved ones out to luxury dinner when your actually making money.

 

Much easier today as I know what I am doing now and can do it rather easily. I've actually been considering taking a few trades (or just one) in the AM and done for the day. Just trade heavier on the amount of contracts and the net $ result is the same or better vs. trading all day. It seems very counterintuitive to work for 1-2 hours and make your goal, but it is possible if you can size up.

 

How do you find balancing your life?

 

Now, it's easy and fun. Plenty of time to do other stuff and enjoy the hard work that was initially spent to get to this point.

 

What are you finding most difficult?

 

As mentioned above, getting my arms around that it might be better and easier for me to trade a couple trades in the AM and be done. Shut the computer down and walk away. As I examine my results closer and look at the numbers, I'm starting to see a pattern that my best trades are in the AM (when the market is usually moving) and that it's too easy to give $ back later in the day - either due to lack of market movements and/or my wanting to trade for the sake of trading.

 

How many hours are you putting in every day?

 

Currently a 7am - 415pm EST type day, but that may be changing in the near future to something like 7am - 9am (if that).

 

==================

 

Comments...

 

It's important that you realize how much time, energy and money was spent for me to get to this point. We are talking about COUNTLESS hours. As I said, it really helped being a stockbroker prior to this b/c I think it provided the work framework that is needed in the beginning. As a stockbroker, I worked AT LEAST 6 days a week and most were from sun rise to late at night. So I was mentally prepared for doing that again w/ trading. I had seen what hours and hours of hard work can do so doing it again was a bit easier the 2nd time around.

 

And now, it's nice. Very similar to being a broker - there was a saying at the firm I was at that you are drastically underpaid in the beginning and drastically overpaid the rest of your career (assuming you survive and are there to collect). Trading is very similar IMO - you not only can make no money, it can cost you the money you do have to learn this skill.

 

If it was easy, everyone would do it. I think you'll find most well paid careers are like that - takes quite a bit of determination and persistence to get there (and few will ever get there) but the ones that can stick it out can make a nice living.

 

I'm reminded of one other saying we had at the firm - the guys that did make it and were making buckets of money all pretty much said the same thing... "I was too dumb to quit."

[Guest forsearch]

 

How do you find balancing your life today? - surely it is much easier to go snowboarding in the alps or to take loved ones out to luxury dinner when your actually making money.

 

Much easier today as I know what I am doing now and can do it rather easily. I've actually been considering taking a few trades (or just one) in the AM and done for the day. Just trade heavier on the amount of contracts and the net $ result is the same or better vs. trading all day. It seems very counterintuitive to work for 1-2 hours and make your goal, but it is possible if you can size up.

 

Whoa.

 

Not to hijack this thread, but I gotta call you out on this Brownsfan. In the past you've been all over those of us who work towards a daily goal of $$$ and call it quits. What gives now? Is this a zeitgeist you're now experiencing here? Thought you were an all-day, take all setups, come what may kind of guy. What gives?

[brownsfan019 17]

Whoa.

 

Not to hijack this thread, but I gotta call you out on this Brownsfan. In the past you've been all over those of us who work towards a daily goal of $$$ and call it quits. What gives now? Is this a zeitgeist you're now experiencing here? Thought you were an all-day, take all setups, come what may kind of guy. What gives?

 

Tired of trading all day. That's all. Trading 7am-415pm can wear you out and I don't feel like doing that much more. Time to enjoy the fruits of my labor.

 

 

And now back to the OP's thread as this could be a good one. If you want to take this up on a separate thread, let me know.

[Kiwi 16]

That's interesting brownsfan. I think I went through the same thing.

 

As a newbie I was fascinated, spent all the hours, wanted every trade. But it does get old.

 

Now I trade for a couple of hours in the morning and one or two in the afternoon. And at the same time I've become much more selective about what I'm watching and what trades I am looking to enter.

 

It's at odds with the "you've got to be passionate .. blah blah blah." Perhaps you've got to love it (or some element of it) to get to this point.

[darthtrader2.0 10]

For those still aiming for moon:

How do you find balancing your life?

What are you finding most difficult?

How many hours are you putting in every day?

 

For me I've just found that trying to find balance is a waste of time right now. No time for a girlfriend let alone a wife/kids, work a lesser job in the evenings than what I could get when the market is open, a piece of junk car, ugly old house with cheap property taxes...I just view it all as cutting expenses to improve the balance sheet while not limiting the opportunities for massive growth.

I'll find balance when I get to brownsfans position...even if it takes 20 years to get there, for me this is much more interesting and fulfilling than 10 hour days doing some mind numbing financial services job.

[BlowFish 10]

If you ask would be traders (or experienced traders for that matter) to list the top 3 reasons why they trade I would bet that "freedom it can offer" would be right up there for most. It is kind of ironic that most of us go through a phase (in my case phases) of being a 'slave to the screen'.

 

I too used to do 18 hours a day 24/7 While it was not completely wasted time (I learnt lots of 'stuff') I can honestly say that most of it did not advance me towards my goal. It is important to work purposefully towards specific goals rather than just sop up random trading information.

 

I currently am doing a couple of hours a few times a week. That could easily flip to watching a whole session or even two (Europe and US) but it will be my choice.

 

As brown points out a dozen ticks a few times a week will quickly compound if you use position sizing (don't over leverage!!) to compound your returns. The way to make more money is to increase size rather than take more points! Having said that an adequate living can be made from a 3 lot without doing more hours.

[darthtrader2.0 10]

I too used to do 18 hours a day 24/7 While it was not completely wasted time (I learnt lots of 'stuff') I can honestly say that most of it did not advance me towards my goal. It is important to work purposefully towards specific goals rather than just sop up random trading information.

 

Well I've finally crossed a milestone in the past 2 weeks in that I can actually tape read. I'm not sure though that all that "stuff" didn't advance you towards your goals. I think the biggest problem with trading is you don't know what you need to know until you know it. 6 months ago I would have laughed at myself if I thought what I've been looking for all this time is the tape with a simple constant volume range bar chart. There have been points where I started wondering if people were actually lieing or deluded when it came to the tape although I do remember someone mentioning that Market Delta is useless if you can tape read which I can totally understand now.

While all the books and information, thinking about getting matlab to datamine ticks(basically tape read) seem like a bit of a waste of time now, I don't think I could have ever arrived at this point without learning what I dont need to know first.

While I know brownsfan rips it up with candle patterns, I think If I had started with candle patterns and never bothered to explore everything basically, I would probly have quit by this point no matter how much screen time I put in. Candle patterns just do not mesh with the way my brain operates on any level.

I heard a great quote on an economics podcast that seems to fit along these lines..basically from probability theory, "to increase your chances of success, double your failure rate". Basically try everything and fail at it and eventually you will find what works for you.

[MidKnight 12]

Excellent quote there DT2.0. I must remember that!

 

All my best,

MK

[brownsfan019 17]

I heard a great quote on an economics podcast that seems to fit along these lines..basically from probability theory, "to increase your chances of success, double your failure rate". Basically try everything and fail at it and eventually you will find what works for you.

 

That is very true darth, esp in trading. Most, if not all of us, have been through the indicators game, change certain settings game, etc. etc. and it just takes time to 'get it'.

[Flojomojo 10]

as there have been already some answers by the Pros, I want to add in a bit of my moonshooting.

 

How do you find balancing your life?

This is one of the points that was pretty hard for me too! Before I got into the whole trading thing I was socially very active and most my activities had to do with people in some sort of way. The solitude of learning to trade really hit me hard. As I'm pretty much a workaholic I knew I had to mix in interaction with people somehow! Thats why I moved into a shared flat with four people who each of them do something completely different. The evening chats and occasional beers keep my daily life balanced now. It gives me fresh energy to talk to people with no clue of what I'm trying to accomplish. I also do sports to clear my mind three times a week.

I also reboot from time to time by giving myself a spontaneous reward. Yesterday for eg. I just booked a flight to Spain because it was just so darn cheap. Some days off in a different environment definitely help me balance out!

 

What are you finding most difficult?

I find the "sit and wait" attitude very challenging. I used to multitask and work parallel on whatever came to my mind. Trading is totally different to my working nature! My mind tends to start to look for opportunities neglecting the "trade what you see not what you think"-principle. When I catch myself in the attempt to do something just for the sake of doing something I do some pushups...since I am forced to do a lot of them, they at least keep me in shape and help me refocus!

 

How many hours are you putting in every day?

I'd say "slave to the screen" is still the appropriate term.

 

Like darthtrader I've also tried to build a smart market model in matlab...which turned out to be my personal quest for the holy grail! My thinking slowly shifted from complicated formulas to an indicator free reading-the-market approach and I don't know whether I would have come here without the hours and hours I put into my grail quest.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Flojomojo

[BlowFish 10]

Congratulations on the tape reading, that's quite an art. Be intrested to hear anything you had to say about that (though perhaps not here).

[brownsfan019 17]

Tired of trading all day. That's all. Trading 7am-415pm can wear you out and I don't feel like doing that much more. Time to enjoy the fruits of my labor.

 

 

And now back to the OP's thread as this could be a good one. If you want to take this up on a separate thread, let me know.

 

As a follow up to this post, most days are done by 11am now at the latest. Today for example, I was done at 8:35am EST. Took a short around 7am and thanks to some news, brought the thing down right into my profit target (actually moved past it now).

 

I have a new saying in my trading career - I Love One and Done Days. :thumbs up:

 

If I get some time, I'll try to start a new thread about this new stage in my career. We'll call it something like 'enjoying the fruits of your labor' or something.

[Guest forsearch]

As a follow up to this post, most days are done by 11am now at the latest. Today for example, I was done at 8:35am EST. Took a short around 7am and thanks to some news, brought the thing down right into my profit target (actually moved past it now).

 

I have a new saying in my trading career - I Love One and Done Days. :thumbs up:

 

If I get some time, I'll try to start a new thread about this new stage in my career. We'll call it something like 'enjoying the fruits of your labor' or something.

 

Sounds like you have plenty of time now, BF. Great! Look forward to hearing about your transition to the good life.

 

BTW - were you able to get any feedback from OEC on their brackets, since you are trading more size now?

[firewalker 10]

That's interesting brownsfan. I think I went through the same thing.

 

As a newbie I was fascinated, spent all the hours, wanted every trade. But it does get old.

 

Now I trade for a couple of hours in the morning and one or two in the afternoon. And at the same time I've become much more selective about what I'm watching and what trades I am looking to enter.

 

It's at odds with the "you've got to be passionate .. blah blah blah." Perhaps you've got to love it (or some element of it) to get to this point.

 

I'd say that's an exact copy of my story. I used to sit in front of the screen from 8am till 22pm. The freedom of not having a 9 to 5 job! But for my style there aren't 10 (not even 5) decent trades per day per instrument. So now instead of watching European and US markets, I focus on what I know best, I focus on trading the first two hours of US open and after that I try to manage the trade. If I'm stopped out so be it. If my target is reached, I quit.

 

I don't think it has much to do with passion. In fact, I probably study more charts when the markets are closed then when they are open and I still read up on a lot of trading information. But trading can be a stressful experience and when you're in front of the screen all day and for two hours there's nothing going on the temptation can be great to put on a trade just for the sake of it.

 

I'm an impatient person. But it's easier to be impatient for one or two hours than sitting on your hands for half a day doing nothing but staring at the screen.

[andrabr9 10]

Was hoping someone could send the tradestation ela/els for average rate of change... I would like to smooth over 3 periods three different rate of change numbers..thank you in advance

 

andy

andrabr9@gmail.com

[brownsfan019 17]

Was hoping someone could send the tradestation ela/els for average rate of change... I would like to smooth over 3 periods three different rate of change numbers..thank you in advance

 

andy

andrabr9@gmail.com

 

Andy - read the forum and learn WHERE to post your requests. This is NOT the thread to be asking for indicator help...