Professional Poker to Professional Trader

[BlueFlare 10]

Hello everyone,

 

I am extremely interested in becoming a trader but could really use some advice, guidance, and insight into my situation. First some background on me... I graduated from North Carolina at Chapel Hill two years ago with two degrees in economics and communications. Since then I have actually been playing poker professionally, mostly online combined with a few major live tournaments on the circuit. I decided to play poker out of school because of the freedom it allowed me ( I love traveling! ). I don't want to sound pompous but I was also making a ton of money playing cards. Recently I have had a strong desire to learn a new passion and to get into a more "legitimate" career. I have read several articles that parallel trading to playing poker, including one on this site! Everyone seems to say that they are very similar and if this is truly the case than trading would be right up my alley. My biggest question is what is the best way to get started? I would love to work for someone else or find some mentor or entity who could "show me the ropes", but i'm worried that everyone I talk to will frown upon the fact that I played poker for a living for two years. How competitive is getting a job as a trader? I would love to have a long term goal of owning my own trading company. Is this something I can learn to do on my own with time, hard work, brains, and will power? Or should I try to get my foot in the door with a company first?

 

Thank you all so much in advance for all the help! Wonderful site and I can't wait to read the responses..

[atto 20]

I used to play a good bit of cards, and so did a few other guys here. There are definite parallels between trading and poker, so I encourage you to jump head first into this. Just like you've put a lot of work into poker, this will take more work than it may initially seem.

 

What kind of trading do you want to do? If you have no clue, what kind of poker game do you play (tight/loose/aggressive/...)? Are you interested in trading for a firm, or for yourself? If you love traveling, you would probably do better for yourself. In that case, there's no competition (just open an account). I would suggest that you hold off paying for a mentor, just yet. The financial vendor market can be a tough place, and there's ample free material on sites like this one. There is no magic, and it will take work.

 

How much do you know about markets already? Ever invested/traded before?

 

And few will frown on your poker career. Traders are in the business of risk managment while exploiting an edge too.

[brownsfan019 17]

Nick - good luck in your new venture into trading. I am just a casual poker player but there are some similarities that is for sure.

 

I will say one thing - while 'stock trading' in itself may seem like a more 'noble' career than playing cards, many people view stay-at-home day traders in the same breath as stay-at-home gamblers. My point is that if having a more 'noble and respected' career is the only (or big part) of your move from poker to trading, I would suggest rethinking that.

 

Reason is that in poker and trading you are looking to exploit some edge - whether that is the ability to read your opponents or having a way to consistently take money from the markets. Either way, a very comfortable living can be made. And if you have a gift of playing poker, I would consider honing in on that gift and pay no attention to the nay sayers vs. jumping into a new business of trading.

 

I say this simply b/c you say you are making good money at cards. That's relative to each person, but it will take a LONG time before you will make a good living at trading. If it's about the money and/or job title, I would consider taking my poker game to a new level.

 

With all that being said, trading is a wonderful business once you get to the point of consistently 'winning'. You will run into drawdowns and have bad runs just like in poker, but if you can come out on top in the end, it's a great 'job' to have.

 

You just have to go into it expecting to fail for a bit while you learn. Just like in poker, you are going to pay for your 'education' into learning this new game. IMO it will be hard if you are pulling steady, good money from poker and focus on what it takes to be a good trader all the meanwhile losing in trading.

 

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but it's important you know what you are getting into ahead of time.

[Soultrader 12]

Hello Nick and welcome to TL. I come from a professional poker background myself paying my way through college with poker money. Eventually I reached a point whether I was to go full out professional and live the casino life or seek an alternative job using my poker skills. My dillemma throughout my poker career was what other people thought of what I do. Obviously most people will view poker as gambling. This perception is the same in trading. Eventually I passed that and no longer care what other people think.

 

Another concern I had was that I was young and was not sure if I wanted to dedicated my life to poker. I was literally a poker freak playing 10-15 hours a day... sometimes even sleeping on the tables. It was fun times but also missed out on alot outside of poker. Eventually I had a couple of relationships that took a downturn due to my poker. I realized I would never feel 100% satisfied with my life if I only played poker.

 

Towards the end of my insane poker career, I met a prop trader who introduced me to the world of trading. I only needed to see him trade once to convince myself that was what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. Hence, I dropped poker for about 2 years and went on an mission to learn this game. I went from a good poker player to a bad trader. This was the toughest challenge for me... I tried to apply all my strength from poker into trading but failed. Although the psychology of the game is similar, I had to learn the rules of this game. It took me about 2.5 years until I fully understood the similarities between poker and trading. I began to understand when to fold (cut losses), when to push aggressive, and when to stand aside (stay flat). I learned that in intraday trading each bar left a clue similar to how the flop, turn, river leaves clues. I was an extremely good bluffer... taking down pots exploiting weakness of others. I was also good in analyzing situations, reading betting patterns, human behavior.. which allowed me to make good calls with weak hands. But starting out in trading I was only concerned about myself and not the psych of other traders. Eventually learning how to read volume efficiently, I was able to understand the hands of bigger traders.

 

I play poke frequently now with a few buddies of mine but nothing hardcore like I used to. I feel alot healthier and my relationships with other people have improved since I made the transition. I do miss the good ol times sitting in a 8-10 person table with all your poker buddies and raking in pots after pots. Playing throughout the night... the regulars had a mutual respect for each other and most of the money flowed in from the newbies and players who came for the excitement.

 

One of the big differences for me in trading and poker is the window of opportunity of pulling the trigger. In poker, you can have all the time in the world before making a call. In trading, hesititation puts you in with the herd. This was one area I had to train alot.

 

Play enough poker and you realize how structured your game becomes. Almost systematic.. that you've seen every possible outcome, scenario, and situation. Making bets and folding becomes almost automatic. Did this intution and experience come over night? No.. unconsciously my brain and body knew exactly what to do in certain situations. It took me almost 3 years to really start seeing patterns in the market in which I can make choices whether the trade was low or high probability. Whether to press hard or decrease my size. I understood the risks and rewards... sometimes even if you think the opponent is bluffing, you may need to lay down your weak hand as the risk is too high. This is sort of like missing an ideal entry point.... dont chase. Just wait for the next bounce, your risk is lower.

 

Anyways, good luck on your journey. Keep that Rounders quote in mind... "If you cant spot the sucker in half an hour.... you are the sucker."

[firewalker 10]

... I was wondering with all the (ex-)poker players around here, perhaps we could organize an online game (small stakes just for fun), say on Pokerstars? We could have our own private room there. For playing in between trades

[atto 20]

As a side note, people do have a stigma for "daytraders". However, a job in "Finance" is perfectly acceptable. As a joke, I got (free, trial on a site) business cards that listed me an as "Intra-day Market Liquidity Provider".

 

Make sure you're getting into this for the right reasons. If we sound harsh/hard, it's only because it's true. Just remember, for trading and poker, if it were that easy, everyone would do it.

[brownsfan019 17]

As a side note, people do have a stigma for "daytraders". However, a job in "Finance" is perfectly acceptable. As a joke, I got (free, trial on a site) business cards that listed me an as "Intra-day Market Liquidity Provider".

 

Make sure you're getting into this for the right reasons. If we sound harsh/hard, it's only because it's true. Just remember, for trading and poker, if it were that easy, everyone would do it.

 

Well said. When I was a 'stock broker / financial advisor' I would get the 'wow, you must make a lot of money' comments. Many would just flat out say that. Now when I say I trade stocks (I just leave it at that usually) it's followed up with 'wow, can you do that from home?' or 'must be tough in this market' (since people have no idea you can make money in a down market). I used to take offense and now it's usually something like 'it's not easy but there's money to be made'.

 

It is interesting to see the common perceptions of different jobs.

[smwinc 20]

Typical "What do you do for living" question at a night out:

 

Them: "So what do you do for a living"

 

Me: "I'm a trader"

 

Them: "Oh Ok."

 

[silence]

 

Them: "So what do you trade? Like Imports/Exports?"

 

Me: "No, I trade futures. On the markets."

 

Them: "Ah."

 

[More Silence]

 

Them: " .. What are they? Like Stocks? You must be struggling in this market!"

 

Me: "Ah.. Not Really... Futures are a specific instrument, called a Derivative, based on Stocks, Indicies, etc."

 

Them: " . . . . . . . . . . I See. Hold on, I'll be right back, I need to go get a drink from XYZ"

 

Them: [Walks off, Never comes back.]

[brownsfan019 17]

sm - that's why I just tell people I trade stocks. I'm not looking to drive people AWAY from me. LOL. Since most people haven't a clue what a future is, just saying you trade stocks is an easy way to at least get a conversation going. I'm not looking to be the guy that talks over everyone's head, esp when at a dinner or social gathering.

 

It's like when you go to the doctor and he starts speaking in medical jargon - right over my head. I do not want to be that guy.

 

But if you like awkward silence or being that guy, I would highly recommend going to straight to talking about futures and derivatives. That will thin the crowd out in no time.

[Guest forsearch]

You could just tell them you trade stocks and commodities for a living.

 

Then if they really get interested and have more question, ask them if they've ever seen the Eddie Murphy movie, Trading Places (which is over 25 years old now!)....

 

Never fails.

[brownsfan019 17]

I'll also equate it to oil. EVERYONE knows what oil prices are doing now, so if you want a few more questions, mention that you trade oil.

[zdo 20]

Poker/gaming professionals transitioning to trading:

Should be less susceptible to the ‘holding losers’ biases and schemas – ie know when to fold…

 

Should be able to generate more ‘staying power’ by ‘transferring’ the skills and attitudes of a having very short memory about each loss.

 

And consequently - Should be able to do well with a smaller edge than the typical noob trader… all but one gambler turned trader that I know ended up systematically / consistently working a small edge instead of forever trying to improve their edge / grail searching.

 

 

For a while long ago I did an occasional few minutes in my trading journal comparing gambling and trading – how trading is similar to this or that game (like poker, bjack, etc.)

Then one evening it hit me. Each of the gambling games is a practice / a substitute / a simile for a certain style of trading.

Way back when, the games developed when non professional ‘traders’ (i.e. road warriors, etc.) had nothing but coin to trade but still wanted / needed to ‘trade’ their way into the situational pareto of the pareto… The games substituted random outcomes for the ‘random-like’ outcomes of real markets…

 

Trading is like gambling - not.

Gambling is like trading…

[BlueFlare 10]

Thank you all so much for all these responses. I really appreciate it! Hopefully I can use some of the information in this thread to convince potential employers of the parallel between poker and trading. Do you all think that is the road I should start out on (i.e. getting a job with a trading company) or should I just invest poker money into trading and trade on my own? What are the advantages / disadvantages of both of these? If I were to go the employed route, what is the best way to start? Thanks again in advance, all of this information has been so extremely helpful.

[brownsfan019 17]

Blue,

I think it comes down to how you learn best & what you are looking to learn.

 

If you learn on your own doing your thing with trial and error, then I would trade on my own to start.

 

If you'd like to learn from another trader or company, consider a prop firm. Just do your due diligence first.

 

With so much stuff on the internet, there's plenty to get you going but it does take time to find your rhythm, much like poker. I believe I am better poker player now than I was a year ago; but I also have a lot more work to do. Same with trading - you'll get better over time, if you can survive and see the light at the end of the tunnel. Many just give up way before that.

[atto 20]

It all depends what you want out of trading. Something more stable, or where you can still work for yourself? Done correctly, trading for yourself is one of the most liberating "jobs" out there. How much time are you willing to put into this (per day, week, etc)? If you have a stable financial situation, I'd urge you to try it yourself.

 

All the information you'd need is out there (free), you just have to filter the crap and know where to look (this is a good place to start). Identify what kind of trading you want to do, and study one aspect / method. Don't waste time searching for a holy grail, and don't give up on something just because you see a pretty birdy flying near by (another attractive looking system). The mark of a newbie is hoping from method to method, never actually mastering any. Personally, I use price action only, focusing on Support and Resistance and volume (if that sounds good, check out the Wyckoff forum here). Otherwise, find what seems to fit your personality.

 

Stay away from guru's, systems that cost, etc for now. There's a few I'd trust, but most are overpriced and present information available elsewhere. The financial vendor market is very sleezy, so be careful.

 

Financial jobs are competitive, especially with no background. Trading for yourself wins here, because you are you're own boss, so to speak. If you work at it, you can make more money and be more free outside of a "job", but that might fit you better (you judge that).

 

Money managment is one of the most important things in trading, so you should have a significant leg up already. In addition to that, you need to be psychologically fit, and have an edge. Spend more time working on yourself than the edge, at least to start. I suggest you get a free demo and sim trade for a while (NinjaTrader demos are offered by several brokers; it's what I use).