Keeping a Strategy Secret

[Northern boy 10]

i've been in the market for 4 years now, i've gotten my lights knocked out before. i know how things work... but your concern is appreciated, Blowfish.

 

the firm i'm joining (I've decided to do this prop, not on an individual account...execution speed, commish costs, BP the pros beat my cons there) sounds great, i like the manager, they offered me a really good deal, and they sound ethical. I don't want to be a jerk and not let them in on it if they so want, I just don't want it to get outside the firm and become null.

 

but but but.... I'd still like to know if there are ways to create terms in a contract to protect a traders' methode/strategy. Does anyone have any ideas about this? Thank you.

Edited June 19, 2008 by Northern boy

[Hlm 10]

Getting back on topic with your question...

 

The best thing to do is to talk to a lawyer. I am sure you can get something written for good looks. However, when dealing with ideas (not software) based around market strategies there is very little you can do realistically to protect them. The best you can hope for is that you truly have a unique edge that will be beneficial to the firm to keep it in house (i.e. them making money with it). Other than that, in my opinion you are out of luck. This is a cut throat business and it is very difficult to prove the unlawful spread of unique ideas. The only way to keep something truly secret is to not tell anyone. Also, there is a chance that the prop firm will refuse to sign such an agreement. But you never know, they might already have experience with these types of agreements. I would casually mention it to them and see their response. I personally have no experience with prop firms so can't really help any further.

[3monkeys 10]

You need to talk to this guy. He had a plan with other people's money as well.

 

$OPM$

[LiggerPig 10]

It's one thing to have a successful strategy, the important part is being able to trade it. Learn to trade it well and only then will you have to worry about others stealing your idea.

One of the easiest ways to protect your method would be to disguise what you are doing. Using extra indicators, external data, etc. which you don't use all adds to the mystique for someone trying to follow your success.

If they ask, just give 'em pages full of charts and tell them to figure it out for themselves, just like you had to :rofl:

Good luck with your strategy.

[BlowFish 10]

i've been in the market for 4 years now, i've gotten my lights knocked out before. i know how things work... but your concern is appreciated, Blowfish.

 

the firm i'm joining (I've decided to do this prop, not on an individual account...execution speed, commish costs, BP the pros beat my cons there) sounds great, i like the manager, they offered me a really good deal, and they sound ethical. I don't want to be a jerk and not let them in on it if they so want, I just don't want it to get outside the firm and become null.

 

but but but.... I'd still like to know if there are ways to create terms in a contract to protect a traders' methode/strategy. Does anyone have any ideas about this? Thank you.

 

OK thats good to hear. When it comes to trading we have all seen people fall into holes that could have probably been avoided. Hell, we have probablly fallen into then ourselves.

 

The problem with using a legal mechanism is that you are going to need to expose things in order to protect them. How would you know if someone was infringing anyway? I think you can rule out patents NDA's etc.

 

That really leaves not disclosing in the first place and endeavouring to hide what you are doing.

 

If you have been in the market four years and presumably enjoyed some success I can't understand why you would want to go prop? If you could demonstrate the sort of results you are talking about I'd wire 50k right now.

 

If you go into a prop shop without capital you are going to get a sh*tty deal. (If you go in with capital you are likely to get a sh8tty deal!) You are going to start off way lower on the equity curve (actually negative). You will have desk costs and the shop will take a massive chunk of any winnings. You will have pretty severe limits in place for a good long while too. Only after doing wel for a decent amount of time are you likely to get a fair crack of the whip.

 

I don't understand why you would want to start so far 'in the hole'. Why start with such a handicap unless you don't have confidence in your system so don't want to risk your own (or loved ones) money?

 

Just struggling to understand what's going on here.

[Blu-Ray 10]

i've been in the market for 4 years now, i've gotten my lights knocked out before. i know how things work... but your concern is appreciated, Blowfish.

 

the firm i'm joining (I've decided to do this prop, not on an individual account...execution speed, commish costs, BP the pros beat my cons there) sounds great, i like the manager, they offered me a really good deal, and they sound ethical. I don't want to be a jerk and not let them in on it if they so want, I just don't want it to get outside the firm and become null.

 

but but but.... I'd still like to know if there are ways to create terms in a contract to protect a traders' methode/strategy. Does anyone have any ideas about this? Thank you.

 

Not trying to jump on the bandwagon here.......... but you can understand everyones concerns.

 

If you go prop and tell the firm your method and it produces figures like you said..... I can GUARANTEE that one or more people within that firm will leave and trade YOUR system via their own accounts......... and then they might tell there closest pals....... who then tell their closest pals.............. and before you know it.......... they'll be a $5000 webinar via TradetheMarkets.com

 

If I were you, I would tell no-one... call it selfish or whatever, but I would call it LOOKING AFTER YOURSELF, because no one else will !

 

Hope this helps

 

Blu-Ray

[ammo 10]

i've been in the market for 4 years now, i've gotten my lights knocked out before. i know how things work... but your concern is appreciated, Blowfish.

 

, and they sound ethical. I don't want to be a jerk QUOTE]ethical in this business, i can count 20 people in 30 years so don't count on that

[Northern boy 10]

It's one thing to have a successful strategy, the important part is being able to trade it. Learn to trade it well and only then will you have to worry about others stealing your idea.

One of the easiest ways to protect your method would be to disguise what you are doing. Using extra indicators, external data, etc. which you don't use all adds to the mystique for someone trying to follow your success.

If they ask, just give 'em pages full of charts and tell them to figure it out for themselves, just like you had to :rofl:

Good luck with your strategy.

 

Lol I'll pin-up papers on game theory all around my desk.

[Northern boy 10]

Not trying to jump on the bandwagon here.......... but you can understand everyones concerns.

 

If you go prop and tell the firm your method and it produces figures like you said..... I can GUARANTEE that one or more people within that firm will leave and trade YOUR system via their own accounts......... and then they might tell there closest pals....... who then tell their closest pals.............. and before you know it.......... they'll be a $5000 webinar via TradetheMarkets.com

 

If I were you, I would tell no-one... call it selfish or whatever, but I would call it LOOKING AFTER YOURSELF, because no one else will !

 

Hope this helps

 

Blu-Ray

 

Yeah you're right.. I'm going to try and work something out with the manager... he sounds like a good guy maybe he'll keep it on the low for me.

[lote_tree 10]

The answer to your problem is in my previous post. If you're confident in your ability to provide that rate of return then i'm sure you can raise the capital yourself very fast. And like I said, you woun't need Gordon Gecko's 6 figure cheque to get you started. You can retire in 3 to 4 years a very rich man and keep the secret all to yourself.

 

[MC 10]

they'll be a $5000 webinar via TradetheMarkets.com

 

 

 

Speaking of TTM...have you all seen this. The are a marketing machine, though I doubt they would sell anything that works well enough to live on. :rofl:

[lote_tree 10]

my father, he worked like an elephant pushing electrical supplies and he dropped dead at 49 with a heart attack and tax bills.

 

P.S.

 

I was referring to hardworking traders who work very hard at being very smart in the markets NOT the traders who work hard at being filthy rich in record time.

 

.

[brownsfan019 17]

 

Speaking of TTM...have you all seen this. The are a marketing machine, though I doubt they would sell anything that works well enough to live on. :rofl:

 

That was really good. Well done parody.

[Art Krantz 10]

I was referring to hardworking traders who work very hard at being very smart in the markets NOT the traders who work hard at being filthy rich in record time.

 

If there are any hard working smart fella’s out there in this game I’ve yet to meet one.

 

I’ve rubbed shoulders with real ‘work hard’ junkies who burn their candles from dawn till dusk. I currently chase a dollar with one or two (savvy) individuals who book less than 25 hrs a week on the ledger, & usually less if they can engineer it :o

 

The latter generally far outpace the former regards consistent profit returns too I can tell you, & in my experience always have.

 

A smart fella don’t got to work hard. That’s why he’s a smart fella in the first place! He leaves all the hard work to those who assume that’s what they got to do to get ahead in this game.

[Northern boy 10]

If there are any hard working smart fella’s out there in this game I’ve yet to meet one.

 

I’ve rubbed shoulders with real ‘work hard’ junkies who burn their candles from dawn till dusk. I currently chase a dollar with one or two (savvy) individuals who book less than 25 hrs a week on the ledger, & usually less if they can engineer it :o

 

The latter generally far outpace the former regards consistent profit returns too I can tell you, & in my experience always have.

 

A smart fella don’t got to work hard. That’s why he’s a smart fella in the first place! He leaves all the hard work to those who assume that’s what they got to do to get ahead in this game.

 

 

i lost the reins on this topic awhile ago and don't know where it went but i think i'm being called lazy by some now. my clocks ticking and some have matters that press more than others.

[lote_tree 10]

Art Krantz;40682]If there are any hard working smart fella’s out there in this game I’ve yet to meet one.

 

Most of if not all of the Market wizards, specifically:

 

Paul Tudor Jones, Marty Schwartz, Linda Raschke, Micheal Marcus, Bruce Kovner etc etc.

 

They've been at the top of the trading game for a reason, they all work very hard and are also very smart.

 

Remember why we are members of this site. Most of us want to improve our trading business and find smarter ways to produce more efficient results. Or if you're kinky, have an argument or two

 

i lost the reins on this topic awhile ago and don't know where it went but i think i'm being called lazy by some now. my clocks ticking and some have matters that press more than others.

 

I've read through the whole of this thread to make sure I haven't missed anything and I can't see where anyone has refered to you as lazy. The fact that you have joined this site and managed to initiate a thread to a serious problem you're having is actually evidence to the contrary.

 

Lastly, forget about approaching a prop firm, forget about telling any of your close friends, wife, girlfriend, cats or dogs and get £25,000 and put it in a trading account. Start trading and by the end of the year you will have 6 figures. In year 3 and 4 you will never need to work again. Then you can tell whoever you want about your trading system, including me

 

I think that would be the smart thing to do matey.

[Art Krantz 10]

Paul Tudor Jones, Marty Schwartz, Linda Raschke, Micheal Marcus, Bruce Kovner etc etc.

 

They've been at the top of the trading game for a reason, they all work very hard and are also very smart.

 

You absolutely sure bout that??

 

I happen to know that 2 of those individuals have also surrounded themselves with a few pretty cute cookies down the years. That doesn't necessarily equate to them burning too much midnite oil though.

 

It's amazing the lengths some folks will go to in order to convince other folks what requires to be done to get results

 

Like I said, smart operators tend to exert far less (unecessary) energy than most folks, & that includes hard (long hrs?) work

[Art Krantz 10]

Remember why we are members of this site. Most of us want to improve our trading business and find smarter ways to produce more efficient results.

 

If you join these chat sites for that reason then you're certainly in for a long, hard, painful slog.

 

You stroll into joints like this to shoot the breeze & poke s*** sticks at the vultures (vendors) son, not improve your trading.

 

You can do that all on your lonesome with a price action for dummies manual, a couple straight talking daily sheets to keep you abreast, a decent squawk facility & a good dollop of common sense.

 

A reasonable grasp of psychology wouldn’t go amiss neither, beings that’s what pitches the smart cats amongst the dumb pigeons most every day.

 

If you really want to improve your trading, or even obtain some (early & cost effective) feedback on whether you possess the muscle to cut it in this snake pit, you'll find yourself a fella who walks the walk & save yourself a whole sackful of misery & dough.

 

You can cram most of the useless crud out there into a nice neat package & stamp it ‘return to sender’ for all the good it’ll do you.

[lote_tree 10]

You absolutely sure bout that??

 

I happen to know that 2 of those individuals have also surrounded themselves with a few pretty cute cookies down the years. That doesn't necessarily equate to them burning too much midnite oil though.

 

Like I said, smart operators tend to exert far less (unecessary) energy than most folks, & that includes hard (long hrs?) work

 

Smart operators didn't get so smart just by waking up one day, deciding to become traders, walk into the NYMEX exchange and become very rich within a year or two. If there are any out there that have then they are very uncommon I think we can both agree on that.

 

Essentially we are are actually saying the same thing. I liken it to a game of chess. You can put me and Gary Kasparov in a room together. It would probably take me 30 minutes to process a continuation pattern in a key area of the board, yet it would probably take Kasparov 3 minutes to process the exact same pattern. The point is I'm working a lot harder than Kasparov because I haven't put in the long hours of study like Kasparov has.

 

By the same token I can spend the next decade studying chess 12 hours a day but only improve my efficiency from 30 minutes of processing time to 20 minutes. The question then becomes am I using those 12 hours everday, wisely? That's actually what I meant by working hard at being very smart.

[lote_tree 10]

If you join these chat sites for that reason then you're certainly in for a long, hard, painful slog.

 

You stroll into joints like this to shoot the breeze & poke s*** sticks at the vultures (vendors) son, not improve your trading.

 

You can do that all on your lonesome with a price action for dummies manual, a couple straight talking daily sheets to keep you abreast, a decent squawk facility & a good dollop of common sense.

 

A reasonable grasp of psychology wouldn’t go amiss neither, beings that’s what pitches the smart cats amongst the dumb pigeons most every day.

 

If you really want to improve your trading, or even obtain some (early & cost effective) feedback on whether you possess the muscle to cut it in this snake pit, you'll find yourself a fella who walks the walk & save yourself a whole sackful of misery & dough.

 

You can cram most of the useless crud out there into a nice neat package & stamp it ‘return to sender’ for all the good it’ll do you.

 

It all depends upon your attitude. If you think people on this site or any other site can't offer any ideas to help you in your trading then fine more power to you. But my personal belief is that everyone is a resource. It all depends upon how you evaluate the resources available to you. Some get seduced by the snake oil salesman with his super duper breakout extreme deluxe strategy, other’s look at a VSA thread and one sentence by some unknown member makes a light bulb go off in your head.

 

If you’re attitude is to make huge amounts of money in double quick time without any effort then you're right, most people in this category will find door no 1, the super duper breakout extreme deluxe strategy.

[Art Krantz 10]

Unfortunately it's got absolutely zilch to do with attitude or hard work & we're swinging ourselves round this maypole so goddamned hard I'm about ready to flop with a dizzy spell :o

 

Good luck to you private. Keep that body armour within reach

[darthtrader2.0 10]

As its been mentioned a few times the only way your going to keep something secret is to not show anyone and run your own business.

I mean if your making 10-20% a month, do you really expect that guys sitting next to you at the prop to not take your ideas? To not beg you day and night to explain what it is your doing? If you put up those kind of numbers and we worked at the same prop I would drill your brain day and night until you either told me what you were doing or quit because you were sick of me bugging you about it.

[lote_tree 10]

Unfortunately it's got absolutely zilch to do with attitude or hard work & we're swinging ourselves round this maypole so goddamned hard I'm about ready to flop with a dizzy spell :o

 

Good luck to you private. Keep that body armour within reach

 

Of course it's got nothing to do with the definition of hardwork you espouse, I pointed that out before, I AGREE. You're getting your knickers in a twist over semantics matey.

 

The HOW to work smart is where the difficulty lies. And unfortunately that does take hard work and attitude to develop for most of us. If it didn't then try telling two of your market wizard friends you know, that ANYONE can walk into a prop shop, start trading, become consistenly profitable for 5 years and retire rich beyond even Donald Trumps wildest dreams, see what reaction you get.

 

[Art Krantz 10]

The HOW to work smart is where the difficulty lies. And unfortunately that does take hard work and attitude to develop for most of us.

 

knickers? twisted? not here. They're all fine, neat & exactly where they should be.

 

Nope, you've missed that big ole point. There she goes whoooooosh...straight over the head & into the horizon

 

Nice chattin with you private. Time to go sink a jug of cold beer & watch some sports.

[lote_tree 10]

Art Krantz;40699knickers? twisted? not here. They're all fine, neat & exactly where they should be.

 

Come on baby, are you sure? Come to daddy

 

Nope, you've missed that big ole point. There she goes whoooooosh...straight over the head & into the horizon

 

If there was a point to miss then you could say it was missed but there isn't one, so your point is beside the point actually. Yes I can explain things away by saying whoosh as well.

 

Nice chattin with you private. Time to go sink a jug of cold beer & watch some sports.

 

It's been a pleasure son just do some homework next time and make sure you come back with a point, may be some day you can reach the rank of private, just like me

 

In the meantime I'll take your money in the markets while your having a cold beer and watching sports all week because I work hard lol. Sorry, I know, bad joke.