Trading the KOSPI 200 Index Futures

[TIKITRADER 10]

Gday Soultrader ,

 

Do you know where we could get the different weightings of the different stocks in the index like you mentioned in your opening chat ?

 

"The heavily weighted stocks for this index includes companies like Samsung Electronics (15.59%), The Pohan Iron and Steel Company (7.89%), Kookimin Bank (3.89%), HHI or Hyundai Heavy Industries (3.53%), etc..."

 

Try here

 

KOSPI 200 | KRX KOREA EXCHANGE

 

KOSPI 200 | KRX KOREA EXCHANGE

[Order Flow Man 10]

Hello all,

 

Could someone let me know if the KOSPI has any advantages over say trading the ZN (US treasuries), ES or other popular contracts? (indexes, currencies, financials)

 

Even in the Asian session what are the advantages/ drawbacks over trading the ASX200 index future (SPI)?

 

I have traded intra-day for a long time but never on the KOSPI. I had a person contact me in order to pick my brain about order flow/ volume analysis intra-day and I wanted to make sure I didnt put him in the wrong direction due to the different characteristics of this market.

 

You can be as general or as technical as you want. (Footprint, price action, volume, order flow, DOM, market/ volume profile, TPO, cumulative delta, liquidity data bank analysis) I know all of the theory.

 

Thanks.

 

OFM

[MightyMouse 12]

Hello all,

 

Could someone let me know if the KOSPI has any advantages over say trading the ZN (US treasuries), ES or other popular contracts? (indexes, currencies, financials)

 

Even in the Asian session what are the advantages/ drawbacks over trading the ASX200 index future (SPI)?

 

I have traded intra-day for a long time but never on the KOSPI. I had a person contact me in order to pick my brain about order flow/ volume analysis intra-day and I wanted to make sure I didnt put him in the wrong direction due to the different characteristics of this market.

 

You can be as general or as technical as you want. (Footprint, price action, volume, order flow, DOM, market/ volume profile, TPO, cumulative delta, liquidity data bank analysis) I know all of the theory.

 

Thanks.

 

OFM

 

I guess that your ego wouldn't allow you to simply be honest and tell the guy that there is nothing about the KOSPI in your brain that he could pick.

[Order Flow Man 10]

I guess that your ego wouldn't allow you to simply be honest and tell the guy that there is nothing about the KOSPI in your brain that he could pick.

 

I don't know if you were attempting to be productive or rude.

 

I have scalped, day traded and swing traded a basket of instruments for a long time and he is the one who is requesting I help him. He is the one who contacted me even after I specifically said that I dont trade it (I am assuming because he can see some value in the long term screen time I have put in to this game.)

 

He wants my input on the advantages on reading pure order flow and volume analysis when trading, instead of the analysing it with the common methods of the retail trader. He has mentioned that he has never traded order flow, but his timetable is such that he wants to trade the Asian session and scalp/ day trade. I currently only trade the SPI during the Asian session as I am generally do other related market things (analysis of data for possible swing trades) and I have already mentioned that the SPI would be more preferable due to the lower commissions. A little choppy and thin though, but good for a couple of intra day moves/ reversals. I am more a European/ US session trader anyway as I told him.

 

He has worked in a Derivatives Middle Office and has created algos for a bank, so I actually figured it wouldn't be a complete waste of time because he would already know a bit and could catch on and obviously develop it himself.

 

We all know that no-one is going to be profitable off a mechanical or discretionary system they don't understand. But if you are given the right tools, platforms, feeds, products and a little direction/ mentoring a person cut significantly reduce the amount of time it takes to develop their own system. To be honest the reason most people never become profitable is that they dont acquire these things. Look at the amount of people in the markets that think technical analysis is the answer. Jeez... Also there are very few (if any) extensive order flow training books I can send to this bloke. I could just point him to 3 I can think of, but still they are not on the cutting edge of it all.

 

Basically what I have read be mentioned is:

 

"I would recommended looking for intra day swings due to divergence in the cumulative delta/ volume and price . Also the methods of Steidlmayer seem to hold true as it is a relatively a retail market, and beware the lack of liquidity at this time bla bla..."

 

No-one has touched it in any real depth yet though.

 

Perhaps the following points could be of assistance:

- Liquidity/ Time of Day

- Correlations/ Lead Lag/ spreading

- Market Profile/ TPO/

- DOM/ manipulation/ pulling & stacking orders/ accumulation & distribution of big players around typical setups/ false breakout reversals

- Divergences (of anything)

- General nuances you can notice via the Jigsaw Dom/ Time and Sales.

- Markets similar in depth and action

- Market footprint

 

This is just a start. You can mention anything you want.

 

Given the variety of things I could talk about (and analysis methods) of general order flow trading I was trying to just put him on the right track. Like I said, I am going out of my way here just to be helpful to this bloke. All I see it as is an afternoon when I can relax, smoke a stogie and talk about something I am passionate about (ie. speculation.) I am appreciate of the people who took the time out to help me, and want to pass it on.

 

If you think the fact that I have never traded the KOSPI means I could not be of any assistance to this bloke make a good argument and I might just leave him to his own devices. At the end of the day it doesnt change my P/L in my markets one way or the other.

 

OFM :missy:

[MidKnight 12]

Hello all,

 

Could someone let me know if the KOSPI has any advantages over say trading the ZN (US treasuries), ES or other popular contracts? (indexes, currencies, financials)

 

Even in the Asian session what are the advantages/ drawbacks over trading the ASX200 index future (SPI)?

 

I have traded intra-day for a long time but never on the KOSPI. I had a person contact me in order to pick my brain about order flow/ volume analysis intra-day and I wanted to make sure I didnt put him in the wrong direction due to the different characteristics of this market.

 

You can be as general or as technical as you want. (Footprint, price action, volume, order flow, DOM, market/ volume profile, TPO, cumulative delta, liquidity data bank analysis) I know all of the theory.

 

Thanks.

 

OFM

 

The SPI is thin. KOSPI has really good volumes that are probably only eclipsed by the Osaka traded Nikkei in the Asian session. The options on the K200 are tiny and are super heavily traded - more volume than the futures. The futures are a fairly big contract somewhere around the $25 USD / tick area.

 

I have watched it off and on, but in Asian futures I have tended to trade N225 or HSI - no real reason other than personal preferences.

 

With kind regards,

MK

[tradingwizzard 10]

I guess that your ego wouldn't allow you to simply be honest and tell the guy that there is nothing about the KOSPI in your brain that he could pick.

 

watch the language please gentlemen.....let's try to behave here

 

TW

[MightyMouse 12]

watch the language please gentlemen.....let's try to behave here

 

TW

 

Sorry. I didn't know I couldn't use ego, KOSPI, pick, and brain in the same post. However, you did allow the OP to use KOSPI, pick, and brain in a way that implied that he had a huge ego. I guess you allow unwarranted huge egos but do not want others pointing out the huge ego. Sort of like allowing nudity but not wanting anyone to talk about it. That is confusing, especially when there is so much busch around.

 

Maybe you guys should post the TL manual of appropriate language so that neither you nor I have to guess at it.

[Order Flow Man 10]

Sorry. I didn't know I couldn't use ego, KOSPI, pick, and brain in the same post. However, you did allow the OP to use KOSPI, pick, and brain in a way that implied that he had a huge ego. I guess you allow unwarranted huge egos but do not want others pointing out the huge ego. Sort of like allowing nudity but not wanting anyone to talk about it. That is confusing, especially when there is so much busch around.

 

Maybe you guys should post the TL manual of appropriate language so that neither you nor I have to guess at it.

 

 

I have only put up a couple of messages on this forum and already I have run in to some pretty "strong" personalities. I assumed that this was a forum of traders who wanted to talk about trading. I am sure with your 2000 odd posts you would know something note-worthy concerning the intra-day analysis of Kospi futures? If not, then why wouldn't you just have enough tact to ignore the message if you thought it sounded conceited?

 

I think ego is a matter of perspective. A lot of people will just read my post and answer it as they may have been in a similar situation themselves and think the concepts are pretty standard. One of the most crucial thing for success for any activity is to ask questions and learn from people who have done it before.

 

Anyway, can we please focus on trading!

[MightyMouse 12]

I have only put up a couple of messages on this forum and already I have run in to some pretty "strong" personalities. I assumed that this was a forum of traders who wanted to talk about trading. I am sure with your 2000 odd posts you would know something note-worthy concerning the intra-day analysis of Kospi futures? If not, then why wouldn't you just have enough tact to ignore the message if you thought it sounded conceited?

 

I think ego is a matter of perspective. A lot of people will just read my post and answer it as they may have been in a similar situation themselves and think the concepts are pretty standard. One of the most crucial thing for success for any activity is to ask questions and learn from people who have done it before.

 

Anyway, can we please focus on trading!

 

I know absolutely nothing about KOSPI futures. I won't pretend to be a source of knowledge on items unknown to me for anyone else.

 

Focusing on trading would be a welcome change from wading through the sales pitches from those who do not know what they think or say they know.

[Order Flow Man 10]

Looks like you got a mixed reaction here.Maybe not what you were hoping for.Maybe you just assumed everybody would take an instant liking to you.Being liked (preferably instantly) seems important for you- the result of an oversized/fragile ego?

 

Wiz obviously is already a big fan.That's a start but wiz doesn't always notice simple moderation tasks,so don't be fooled by his super-moderator tag.

 

Seems MightyMouse is not a fan and,so far,i gotta say neither am I...sorry 'bout dat.If being welcomed and appreciated is important to you,then you might wanna try not casually insulting people.Maybe it's not intentional on your part,but some of us take great care in choosing out words here so there's less room for misinterpretation.

For example,backhanded insults like this:

 

I am sure with your 2000 odd posts you would know something note-worthy concerning the intra-day analysis of Kospi futures?

 

And little gems like this:

 

We all know that no-one is going to be profitable off a mechanical or discretionary system they don't understand. But if you are given the right tools, platforms, feeds, products and a little direction/ mentoring a person cut significantly reduce the amount of time it takes to develop their own system. To be honest the reason most people never become profitable is that they dont acquire these things. Look at the amount of people in the markets that think technical analysis is the answer. Jeez...

 

Those who trade know,or should know,that there are many ways to trade and that the mental game is the biggest part of it.Patronizing those who use TA isn't gonna win you many friends here,trust me,i been here a while.

I'm sure Wiz would advise you to respect others.Your comments do the opposite.Can you see that? 'cos we can,clearly.

 

And here (after slagging off another wannabe vendor,you'd just like us to know this:

 

I have scalped, day traded and swing traded a basket of instruments for a long time..

 

..because he can see some value in the long term screen time I have put in to this game

 

The comments taken together look like you're touting for biz...look like it,doesn't mean you are,just saying some people are sensitive about that here more than other forums,because apart from kidding around now and then we do actually want to do what you said here:

 

I assumed that this was a forum of traders who wanted to talk about trading

 

 

Now,maybe,if you apologize (like I know you're going to) I could convice MightyMouse that you really didn't intend to insult anyone here and that you're not insinuating that you are somehow better than the rest of us.Doesn't look good for the new guy on the block right now...and you know what they say about first impressions.

 

 

 

 

Maybe we just have different outlooks on trading. I was always in it for the money- nothing else. I am not here to be anyone’s friend, or their enemy. I am here to earn dollars. But remember I did offer you great free advice when suggesting you need to look at order flow and much can be learned by putting in significant screen time. My advice wasn’t going to make or lose me money this week, and perhaps one day another reader will realise that these words were actually really honest and helpful because I have been where 95% of retail traders have been. I studied fundamental and technical analysis, I wrote algorithms, I paid higher commissions and I used bad brokers. I won money, lost money, lost sleep and even girlfriends because of how much time I gave to both the markets and just earning money in general.

 

Maybe I do have an ego, some people have said that. But over the last ten years I have grown as a person because I was willing to accept that I didn’t know everything and to seek out good advice. I worked unbelievably hard in my career and on the screens and through dedication grew my income many times over.

 

I have seen really dedicated men with no education make a lot of money, and I have seen really smart men lose a lot of money and lose their wife and kids. There is no sure fire formula. All I know is that if you put in a lot of work, have proper risk management, forget your ego and stay hungry to learn than you can earn an almost stable 10-15% a month on a futures account. I just hope that if you really want to be a trader (or just be successful in any part of your life) that you find success, and all the benefits that come from hard work and dedication.

 

All the best as this is my last post.

 

OFM

[MightyMouse 12]

Maybe we just have different outlooks on trading. I was always in it for the money- nothing else. I am not here to be anyone’s friend, or their enemy. I am here to earn dollars. But remember I did offer you great free advice when suggesting you need to look at order flow and much can be learned by putting in significant screen time. My advice wasn’t going to make or lose me money this week, and perhaps one day another reader will realise that these words were actually really honest and helpful because I have been where 95% of retail traders have been. I studied fundamental and technical analysis, I wrote algorithms, I paid higher commissions and I used bad brokers. I won money, lost money, lost sleep and even girlfriends because of how much time I gave to both the markets and just earning money in general.

 

Maybe I do have an ego, some people have said that. But over the last ten years I have grown as a person because I was willing to accept that I didn’t know everything and to seek out good advice. I worked unbelievably hard in my career and on the screens and through dedication grew my income many times over.

 

I have seen really dedicated men with no education make a lot of money, and I have seen really smart men lose a lot of money and lose their wife and kids. There is no sure fire formula. All I know is that if you put in a lot of work, have proper risk management, forget your ego and stay hungry to learn than you can earn an almost stable 10-15% a month on a futures account. I just hope that if you really want to be a trader (or just be successful in any part of your life) that you find success, and all the benefits that come from hard work and dedication.

 

All the best as this is my last post.

 

OFM

 

How have you grown over the last 10 years if you categorize a man as smart who loses his wife and kids over trading?

 

Personally, I would call the man dumb as wood for letting that happen and I would have called him the same thing 10 years ago.

[tradingwizzard 10]

excellent job vultures (Mickey Mouse and Honda there)......when somebody actually talks about trading with you the best you can do is talk crap.....

 

really impressed here :thumbs down:

 

for the future spare us please, it is not mandatory to post, said that again in the past and said it again now, maybe you will eventually get it

 

TW

[MightyMouse 12]

excellent job vultures (Mickey Mouse and Honda there)......when somebody actually talks about trading with you the best you can do is talk crap.....

 

really impressed here :thumbs down:

 

for the future spare us please, it is not mandatory to post, said that again in the past and said it again now, maybe you will eventually get it

 

TW

 

Mickey Mouse and Honda? You incredibly witty and creative.

[RedDuke 10]

Hi OFM,

 

I day trade Kospi futures. Any questions, your guy has, ask him to post here. I actually use dom a lot, and coded algos around it.

 

I am always interested in learning more about Dom and order flow. You mentioned you know few books. Can you please post their titles here. Probably won't find anything useful in them, but hey you never know.

 

Totally agree that there is not too much info on Dom, tape and order flow out there.

 

Regards,

Alex

 

I don't know if you were attempting to be productive or rude.

 

I have scalped, day traded and swing traded a basket of instruments for a long time and he is the one who is requesting I help him. He is the one who contacted me even after I specifically said that I dont trade it (I am assuming because he can see some value in the long term screen time I have put in to this game.)

 

He wants my input on the advantages on reading pure order flow and volume analysis when trading, instead of the analysing it with the common methods of the retail trader. He has mentioned that he has never traded order flow, but his timetable is such that he wants to trade the Asian session and scalp/ day trade. I currently only trade the SPI during the Asian session as I am generally do other related market things (analysis of data for possible swing trades) and I have already mentioned that the SPI would be more preferable due to the lower commissions. A little choppy and thin though, but good for a couple of intra day moves/ reversals. I am more a European/ US session trader anyway as I told him.

 

He has worked in a Derivatives Middle Office and has created algos for a bank, so I actually figured it wouldn't be a complete waste of time because he would already know a bit and could catch on and obviously develop it himself.

 

We all know that no-one is going to be profitable off a mechanical or discretionary system they don't understand. But if you are given the right tools, platforms, feeds, products and a little direction/ mentoring a person cut significantly reduce the amount of time it takes to develop their own system. To be honest the reason most people never become profitable is that they dont acquire these things. Look at the amount of people in the markets that think technical analysis is the answer. Jeez... Also there are very few (if any) extensive order flow training books I can send to this bloke. I could just point him to 3 I can think of, but still they are not on the cutting edge of it all.

 

Basically what I have read be mentioned is:

 

"I would recommended looking for intra day swings due to divergence in the cumulative delta/ volume and price . Also the methods of Steidlmayer seem to hold true as it is a relatively a retail market, and beware the lack of liquidity at this time bla bla..."

 

No-one has touched it in any real depth yet though.

 

Perhaps the following points could be of assistance:

- Liquidity/ Time of Day

- Correlations/ Lead Lag/ spreading

- Market Profile/ TPO/

- DOM/ manipulation/ pulling & stacking orders/ accumulation & distribution of big players around typical setups/ false breakout reversals

- Divergences (of anything)

- General nuances you can notice via the Jigsaw Dom/ Time and Sales.

- Markets similar in depth and action

- Market footprint

 

This is just a start. You can mention anything you want.

 

Given the variety of things I could talk about (and analysis methods) of general order flow trading I was trying to just put him on the right track. Like I said, I am going out of my way here just to be helpful to this bloke. All I see it as is an afternoon when I can relax, smoke a stogie and talk about something I am passionate about (ie. speculation.) I am appreciate of the people who took the time out to help me, and want to pass it on.

 

If you think the fact that I have never traded the KOSPI means I could not be of any assistance to this bloke make a good argument and I might just leave him to his own devices. At the end of the day it doesnt change my P/L in my markets one way or the other.

 

OFM :missy:

[Order Flow Man 10]

Hi OFM,

 

I day trade Kospi futures. Any questions, your guy has, ask him to post here. I actually use dom a lot, and coded algos around it.

 

I am always interested in learning more about Dom and order flow. You mentioned you know few books. Can you please post their titles here. Probably won't find anything useful in them, but hey you never know.

 

Totally agree that there is not too much info on Dom, tape and order flow out there.

 

Regards,

Alex

 

 

 

Hey Alex,

 

Thanks for the post. I met up with the guy about a week ago. He seemed like he had been in the industry for quite some time, but order flow was still fairly new to him. He was previously using an algo price action breakout strategy (new highs and lows of the session) so click trading in general was a change in pace. I gave him the texts below and put him on track with DD broker and non-filtered feed and the JIgsaw DOM. Also recommended he get some form of footprint & profile tools as well. I did not discuss spread trading at any depth with him. Can you advise if KOSPI has any correlation/ lead lag with any other indexes? I will send him an email and put the link of the thread. Good idea.

 

For books (assuming you have read these or something similar, because they are pretty standard):

 

Market Profile/ Liquidity Data Bank Analysis- CBOT handbook (or anything by Jim Dalton)

Power Based Trading/ Overlay Curve- Don Jones

No BS Day Trading - John Grady

 

There is a lot more to understand, but these are the only books I could find... I think they at least get a person to start thinking about it the right way...

 

Mainly just spruked No BS book to him so that he would understand the cycle of the markets constantly moving in to areas of liquidity. This is the basis of my trading- big money looking for liquidity to enter and exit positions. Obviously you spot in via the nuances on the DOM/ footprint. Eg. More orders hitting at bid and the price moves higher etc. (Very basic example, but you know what I mean- resistance/ divergences etc)

 

Any other books you think would help this guy?

 

 

OFM