Question About Time & Sales

[beeker1121 10]

Hi,

 

I'm becoming more and more interested in trading based on a time & sales window, a.k.a. reading the tape, but I have a lot of basic questions.

 

It's my understanding that in the e-mini futures, the S&P for example, for each buyer there is an equal seller(s) and vice versa. However, whenever I look at the tape and see a buyer at say 1390.50, I do not see the equal seller going through at the same price.

 

I was told by a friend that they only show one because they don't need to print it twice. If that's true, how is it decided whether a buy or sell order is shown on the tape?

 

My goal is to hopefully gain enough skill in reading the tape that I can trade profitably with it, but as you can see I have a lot basic questions to get out of the way. I've read multiple books on the subject, the most popular like Tape Reading and Market Tactics, Techniques of Tape Reading, etc., so I have a good understanding of how accumulation/distribution, price testing and rejection, shake outs and the like work book-wise, but when I try to apply these principles in a live market I can't seem to make it work. I believe the main reason is I still have to learn the basics thoroughly.

 

Lastly, are there any good books, courses, etc, that teach modern tape reading based off the time & sales window for the futures?

 

Sorry for the long post and I appreciate any advice.

[Harlequin 10]

 

It's my understanding that in the e-mini futures, the S&P for example, for each buyer there is an equal seller(s) and vice versa. However, whenever I look at the tape and see a buyer at say 1390.50, I do not see the equal seller going through at the same price.

 

 

The tape only shows that a trade happened, for there to be a buyer there must have been a seller. If you are referring to it being coloured red or green that just indicates that it was executed at the bid or ask.

[beeker1121 10]

So when I'm looking at the tape and I see a trade going through at 1390.50 and it's colored green, that only means that the trade went through on the ask and not that it was someone buying, rather there was a buyer and a seller and it just happened to go through on the ask?

[smwinc 20]

It depends on your software.

 

99% are just showing:

 

if the last price on the tape is less than the previous last price (n < n-1) then it will be displayed in red.

 

If the last price on the tape is greater than the previous last price (n > n-1) then it will be displayed in green.

 

You are seeing red for a downtick, green for an uptick. Generally an uptick is because someone lifted prices to hit an offer (ask), or prices fell because someone downticked prices to hit a bid.

 

I say generally, because that's not always the case. Especially in markets where there is variable spread (e.g. DAX, most thinner futures/stocks), it can change. Let me try and draw an example.

 

A = Offer/Ask

B = Bid

*** = Traded Price

 

1.

 

 

 

A

A

A

A

B*** <--- last traded price at the bid.

B

B

B

 

2.

 

 

 

A

A

A

A*** <--- last traded price at the ask. Price is "upticked" by TWO ticks.

<--- SPREAD (the gap) also widens as traders pull their offers up.

B <--- Previous last traded price at (1)

B

B

B

 

3.

 

A

A

A <--- previous traded price level at (2)

A*** <--- last traded price at the ask. Price is "downticked". Someone inserts an Ask into the Spread, and it's hit.

B (spread has closed).

B

B

B

 

In part 3, price is downticked as well as traded at the ask / offer.

 

-------

 

If you are trying to learn to read tape, I highly recommend reading straight from a good price ladder where you can see the bids and offers as well.

 

That way, you see the whole picture:

 

Implied Supply

Supply

Equilibrium

Demand

Implied Demand

 

 

Cheers.

Edited April 30, 2008 by smwinc
Clarification

[Harlequin 10]

Thanks smwinc, you explained it a lot better than I could.

 

beeker1121,

 

I've been trying to think of any good resources to learn tape reading and there is not a lot about. Soultrader has some good videos on this site, they have been moved to the premium area so you'll need to sign up for that. Other than that I'd recommend taking the 2 week trial at Trade The Markets, go through every video on Hubert's newsletter with tape reading, scalping or live trading in the title and also the members only webinar "Day Trading Seminar - Scalping the Markets".

As Hubert would say teaching someone to tape read in a book is like trying to teach someone to swim over the telephone. To learn you need to spend a lot of screen time, open a DOM and a time and sales window, close all the charts and practice.

[BlowFish 10]

On numerous occasions over the years I have watched the tape to try and "get it". I think it is as much art as science. Thats probablly why not much has been written about tape reading from T&S. It's probably as 'pure' a way to trade as you can arrive at. Do you plan on using the DOM (depth of market) along side to try and guage what was advertised vs what actually sold?

 

Over the years there have been odd nuggets of wisdom about tape reading often buried deep amongst the mire at Elite Trader. A bit of patience and careful searching might dredge them up. There was one guy who's name escapes me who posted how he learnt and basically it boiled down to watching live and then printing out every single print and going over it all again after market hours. It may have been a poster called FutureTrader71, its been a long time and my memory is not so good.

 

If you find anything interesting please share it here.

[darthtrader 10]

ahh good stuff, FuturesTrader71 is the guy on elite. This thread "Market Depth patterns" is pretty interesting.

 

He made a great point as far as recording the entire session with camtasia with the tape and DOM up and then going over it again after the market with the chart.

 

From my experience with the tape is to just have patience, I still really get nothing from it after a year of trying but I haven't worked that hard with it.

I wouldn't really waste much time with learning materials outside of screen time, that Hubert quote is probly spot on.

[DbPhoenix 42]

Tape reading is nothing more than monitoring the current price action and asking: Is the price going up or down right now?

 

Even the most novice observer has the ability to see that prices are moving higher or lower at any particular moment or, for that matter, when prices seem to be going nowhere or sideways. (Markets do not always have to be going somewhere!) It is also fairly easy to watch a price go up and then tell when it stops going up - even if it turns out to be only a momentary pause.

 

If you can learn to follow the price action, you will be two steps ahead of the game because price is faster than any derivative. You may have heard the saying, "The only truth is the current PRICE." Your job as a trader will become ten times easier once you accept this. This means ignoring news, opinions, and personal biases.

 

When watching price, the first thing we want to know is how fast, how far, and in which direction. It takes two points to measure these things. One will always be the current price, the other a "reference point”.

 

"The study of responses ... is an almost unerring guide to the technical position of the market." Wyckoff

 

The second is to watch for the market's response to a particular condition, i.e., to anticipate a particular behavior. For example, if the market has been at a very low volatility point and just begins breaking out of it's particular trading range, one might anticipate that the price would begin to accelerate in an impulsive manner and not run into immediate resistance. Or, on a directional play, if the price is moving in an impulsive manner in a trending market and then pauses to catch its breath on a mild reaction, one would expect it then to continue on in the direction of the trend. When there is a particular behavior to anticipate, it is easier to watch the price to see if it acts according to one's expectations.

 

Tape reading is not watching every trade that passes by (a monotonous task) but rather keeping an eye out for unusual impulsive action, unusual volume, or just observing the way the price trades at significant levels. Each price swing has forecasting value as to what the next most immediate move should be. We then follow the price action to see if that move plays out. (Linda Bradford Raschke)

[tradertomdotnet 10]

on the Emini ladders there is no way to tell how much wil; trade at a "level" esp during a new event. Stops are needed...!!

On numerous occasions over the years I have watched the tape to try and "get it". I think it is as much art as science. Thats probablly why not much has been written about tape reading from T&S. It's probably as 'pure' a way to trade as you can arrive at. Do you plan on using the DOM (depth of market) along side to try and guage what was advertised vs what actually sold?

 

Over the years there have been odd nuggets of wisdom about tape reading often buried deep amongst the mire at Elite Trader. A bit of patience and careful searching might dredge them up. There was one guy who's name escapes me who posted how he learnt and basically it boiled down to watching live and then printing out every single print and going over it all again after market hours. It may have been a poster called FutureTrader71, its been a long time and my memory is not so good.

 

If you find anything interesting please share it here.

[beeker1121 10]

Thank you all for your responses and information, smwinc the visual representation helped a lot! I also found that elitetrader thread and will be reading that through.

 

I haven't given much thought to incorporating the DOM along with the tape, due to the many games that are played. With the tape, these are actual orders that have gone through and nothing can change that, so that's what I've been focusing on the most.

 

Harlequin, I've seen a couple Hubert's videos, one was on tape reading the YM, and I've been to the Trade the Markets site before and it's gotten my interest. Have you ever been in his chat room or studied under him? If so, did you find his information on tape reading to be helpful?

 

I noticed that in Soultrader's and Hubert's videos on tape reading, both of them bracket price on the tape. I'm in the middle of reading Reminiscences of a Stock Operator by Jesse Livermore and he too, from what I understand, would try to bracket price between S/R levels and then watch how price reacted when it approached these levels. I'm going to start paying much more attention to this.

[BlowFish 10]

on the Emini ladders there is no way to tell how much wil; trade at a "level" esp during a new event. Stops are needed...!!

 

Indeed, however trading need not be about predicting. Monitoring what is happening now and taking appropriate actions based on that will get you a long way.

 

You can see a price being supported as it happens in real time for example by volume passing across the tape but the inventory being 'restocked' (i.e the bid or ask does not lift). Also the tape is great for judging changes in pace right as they happen.

 

All sorts of interesting stuff goes on in the order book too though I must be honest I don't watch it currently. Of course there are shenanigans all the time as it is simply people 'advertising' and unless hit they can close shop and walk away. Mind you that might tell some people something in and of itself.

 

One thing I have noticed that a huge amount of time price tends to move towards size i.e. the thicker side of the book. Many find this counter intuitive. There are plenty of other patterns and characteristics that people talk about every now and then too.

 

Currently I look at a small interval tick chart (constant volume would do or even perhaps a small interval time bar) to see what is happening in 'real time'. That is not to say that I have not given up on learning to read the 'pure' tape.

 

Good quotes as always btw DB

[Harlequin 10]

beeker1121,

 

Yes I have been in the trading room and yes I learnt a lot about tape reading from Hubert. When it comes to paying for the service the question really is, does it meet your needs? Hubert normally does a tape reading lesson on a Thursday or Friday morning so if your paying for the room just for that then it's not going to be very good value for you. The best advice I can give is to take the 2 week trial and make sure you spend the time going through the video archives as there is a ton of information there, you can't go wrong for $5. Take notes and after that as I said before it's about how much screen time you put in, it may be simple but it isn't easy. It most likely will take several hours a day for 3 - 6 months before you get good at it.

If you search this and other forums you'll find many opinions on Trade The Markets both good and bad, my guess is that most of the complaints are from people who expected success handed on a plate and were not prepared to put the hard work in.

Bottom line is to quote another thread "do your own due diligence and be weary of anything involving money"

 

PS "bracket price between S/R levels and then watch how price reacted when it approached these levels"

That's a good starting point.

[BlowFish 10]

Hi Harlequin, When Hubert talks about reading the tape are we talking about using T&S? Seems that it means slightly different things to different people.

 

On the whole trade the markets seem to have a good reputation as far as vendors go. I thought Carters book was Ok but other than that have no experience of them.

 

One thing I have to say I found pretty questionable is taking public domain indicators, renaming them with TTM in front, and selling them for close to $500 a pop. (Most if not all had appeared on TS forums) To me that's shooting yourself in the foot as it calls into question there whole business ethic. Anyway I have no real axe to grind and may even go for the trial if there tape reading stuff is good.

 

Cheers.

[Harlequin 10]

BlowFish,

 

Yes when Hubert says tape reading it is reading T&S, he often recommends closing all the charts and just practising with just the T&S window only.

 

As for the indicators that's what I meant by do your own due diligence, I don't have much sympathy for someone that just turns up and thinks by spending a grand on an indicator package they will suddenly make money trading. If your not going to spend 30 seconds on Google then you get what's coming. I remember one time at a webinar someone was complaining they had put the indicator prices up, JC responding "Yes we were selling too many of them" there's supply and demand in action!

 

Over all as long as you understand that it's an education service and not "Holy Grails R Us" JC and Hubert are both genuine guys with a lot of knowledge IMO.

[smwinc 20]

Few points,

 

We have two key areas here:

 

Time & Sales (actual trades)

 

Depth of Market in a price ladder (implied demand & supply)

 

I trade predominantly off the depth in a few markets. I work with traders who trade ONLY off the depth in some markets. It is not some mystical science.

 

However, this trading style is less suited to thicker markets. Broadly, when reading the depth, you are 'pulling apart the market' and attempting to analyse individual traders.

 

Is there a seller in the market?

Are they finished?

Where are they short from?

Where will weak hands be forced to reverse?

etc

 

E.g. 200 lot appears on the front of the offer in the DAX. Traders jump in front with 4,6,10 lots to get short, 'leaning' on the size.

 

The 200 lot is implied supply. If that gets pulled, the guys who just got short will likely cut & reverse, or at least cut their trade.

 

You see 1000 on the bid appears in ESXT50 and hit Long the DAX, on the view that the ESTX50 will get bid up, sending the DAX up. 200 lot gets pulled (maybe he was just pushing sellers into his bids?who knows, who cares). Weak shorts reverse as the DAX is bid up, etc.

 

This is just one example. This type of analysis is fine when you are analysing a market which is of lower volume - DAX, FTSE, etc. The lower the volume of a market, the more you really need to understand the intricate price action.

 

It is MUCH more difficult (and in my opinion, just not ideal) to try and read the depth of something like the ES, Nikkei, FX futures, etc. Big, thick markets dominated by much more complicated trading.

 

In something thicker, you are reading the flow of the time and sales. I do like to pay attention to Accumulated Depth, as markets do tend to attract to size, but only on a minor note.

[strtedat22 10]

Few points,

 

We have two key areas here:

 

Time & Sales (actual trades)

 

Depth of Market in a price ladder (implied demand & supply)

 

I trade predominantly off the depth in a few markets. I work with traders who trade ONLY off the depth in some markets. It is not some mystical science.

 

However, this trading style is less suited to thicker markets. Broadly, when reading the depth, you are 'pulling apart the market' and attempting to analyse individual traders.

 

Is there a seller in the market?

Are they finished?

Where are they short from?

Where will weak hands be forced to reverse?

etc

 

E.g. 200 lot appears on the front of the offer in the DAX. Traders jump in front with 4,6,10 lots to get short, 'leaning' on the size.

 

The 200 lot is implied supply. If that gets pulled, the guys who just got short will likely cut & reverse, or at least cut their trade.

 

You see 1000 on the bid appears in ESXT50 and hit Long the DAX, on the view that the ESTX50 will get bid up, sending the DAX up. 200 lot gets pulled (maybe he was just pushing sellers into his bids?who knows, who cares). Weak shorts reverse as the DAX is bid up, etc.

 

This is just one example. This type of analysis is fine when you are analysing a market which is of lower volume - DAX, FTSE, etc. The lower the volume of a market, the more you really need to understand the intricate price action.

 

It is MUCH more difficult (and in my opinion, just not ideal) to try and read the depth of something like the ES, Nikkei, FX futures, etc. Big, thick markets dominated by much more complicated trading.

 

In something thicker, you are reading the flow of the time and sales. I do like to pay attention to Accumulated Depth, as markets do tend to attract to size, but only on a minor note.

 

I agree with you totally. I see front running large contracts on the tape lately. I seen it today (5/2/2008) on the YM. I just dont know how to time it. I have a feel of the tape but I cant pull the trigger on those large bid/ask orders on the DOM . Im afraid the orders will get pulled when it does get close. When i dont, i see those trades show up on the tape. :crap:

 

strtedat22

[strtedat22 10]

I wish i had level 2 for the YM. I would be ahead of the learning curve

 

strtedat22

 

PS. im with OEC and using sierra charts. is there a third party that offers level 2 for the YM?

[Brookwood 10]

I too am trying to learn T&S, and to that end am evaluating market profile-type software that lets you see Bid/Ask volume at each price level on a bar chart. My question relates to what I'm seeing in the cumulative volume delta and Bid/Ask/Sales for each candle. On a regular T&S window many times I've seen tons of small prints and block sales at the bid and price goes nowhere yet a few small sales on the ask and price moves up. Also the reverse. I'm seeing this on the demo software too- YM trades down all morning on decent volume but at some point around 10:30 AM there is a 60 point rally but I'm seeing only negative volume delta for every single 3m bar and the bid is getting hit at 5 times the ask.How is price going up if the "tape" shows only selling by any objective measure?What else moves price besides hitting the bid or ask?

 

:\

[smwinc 20]

I too am trying to learn T&S, and to that end am evaluating market profile-type software that lets you see Bid/Ask volume at each price level on a bar chart. My question relates to what I'm seeing in the cumulative volume delta and Bid/Ask/Sales for each candle.

 

I really think it's important to completely understand the raw data in trading. There is not very many variables (Price and Volume, that's about it.) BEFORE you start using more complex tools to analyse the raw data, or present it in another form.

 

This is an important point, if I could stress it more, I would.

 

Every single indicator or data tool is performing a calculation for you, and displaying the result. If you are going to make a decision (buy/sell/wait) based on that result, you need to understand the a) the underlying data and b) the calculation being performed.

 

Indicators are really just like math formula's. You should use them to calculate a result that is too cumbersome to do manually over and over again.

 

YM trades down all morning on decent volume but at some point around 10:30 AM there is a 60 point rally but I'm seeing only negative volume delta for every single 3m bar and the bid is getting hit at 5 times the ask.How is price going up if the "tape" shows only selling by any objective measure?What else moves price besides hitting the bid or ask?

 

 

Whoa, whoa whoa.

 

Negative Volume Delta? Why do you care if volume is decreasing at a slower rate? and why 3 minute bars? What is 'decent' volume - are we comparing volume to an average in a 'look back' period? Do you see my point - there is nothing wrong with these specific things (I don't want to have a discussion about them), but you really need to understand what you are looking at, and most importantly, why you care about them.

 

Honestly, spend a week without charts, and just watch a price ladder & a time & sales window. I'm guessing you probably just need to be more familiar with the dynamics of how the market actually works - the mechanics of the auction process, etc.

 

I don't like talking about specifics, but this myth about needing complex tools to earn good money is just complete bullshit. Maybe people assume that successful traders "out there" all use hi-tech tools. All of the people in my office who earn 6 -7 figures a year have the most simple trading setup you could imagine, just using a price ladder & basic charts with no indicators. Just bars/candles and volume. I'm still waiting to meet a trader with a really advanced setup who actually makes a good living.

 

Time and Sales is showing you the end result of everything you need to know in trading. Buying and Selling. At the end of the day, if you can understand only a moment beforehand that people are likely to buy or sell at a particular point, that is ALL you need to know. It's actually pretty simple, just difficult to do consistently.

 

Hope it helps.

[beeker1121 10]

What else moves price besides hitting the bid or ask?

 

smwinc, do have an answer for this? I think I know, however without being 100% positive I don't want to post anything in case it's not valid.

[mister ed 10]

Whoa, whoa whoa.

 

Negative Volume Delta? Why do you care if volume is decreasing at a slower rate?

 

 

Hi smwinc

 

Just to clarify (I hope) as it appears you and brookwood are talking about two different things here. Brookwood is looking at the amount of volume being dealt at the ask price (I.e. offers being lifted) compared to volume being dealt at the bid price (i.e. bids being given). So when he (or she) says "negative volume delta" it means the volume dealing at the bid (bids being given) is greater than the volume being dealt at the ask (offers being lifted), not that volume is decreasing at a slower rate.

 

Brookwood - if it is I who am mistaken please let me know.

[strtedat22 10]

I too am trying to learn T&S, and to that end am evaluating market profile-type software that lets you see Bid/Ask volume at each price level on a bar chart. My question relates to what I'm seeing in the cumulative volume delta and Bid/Ask/Sales for each candle. On a regular T&S window many times I've seen tons of small prints and block sales at the bid and price goes nowhere yet a few small sales on the ask and price moves up. Also the reverse. I'm seeing this on the demo software too- YM trades down all morning on decent volume but at some point around 10:30 AM there is a 60 point rally but I'm seeing only negative volume delta for every single 3m bar and the bid is getting hit at 5 times the ask.How is price going up if the "tape" shows only selling by any objective measure?What else moves price besides hitting the bid or ask?

 

:\

 

market delta blows. i wanted to see within those green and red columns. T&S is all you need. Rec the market and review it after hours to find support and resistance. Add a chart and pivot points if things dont add up at first

 

strtedat22

[Brookwood 10]

Hi smwinc

 

Just to clarify (I hope) as it appears you and brookwood are talking about two different things here. Brookwood is looking at the amount of volume being dealt at the ask price (I.e. offers being lifted) compared to volume being dealt at the bid price (i.e. bids being given). So when he (or she) says "negative volume delta" it means the volume dealing at the bid (bids being given) is greater than the volume being dealt at the ask (offers being lifted), not that volume is decreasing at a slower rate.

 

Brookwood - if it is I who am mistaken please let me know.

 

Thanks for the replies.

Mr.Ed has distilled my question correctly. (And yes, I'm a Mr. as well.)Forget the software aspect- I have now seen with two separate methods that price can rise when there is more volume and sales at the bid, and vice versa. So consider this a straight-up T&S question. This phenomenon probably even has a name. I understand the concept of spoofing but this is recorded sales not bluffing. Haven't you Naked chart T&S guys seen this?? Since I'm new at order flow I doubt what I'm seeing with my own eyes or think I must be interpreting things incorrectly.Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

:\

[mister ed 10]

Since I'm new at order flow I doubt what I'm seeing with my own eyes

 

Don't doubt what you see, it is happening right before you; be interested to hear other's thoughts too.

[smwinc 20]

I'm struggling a little to describe this in a forum typing

 

One of those things that is much easier to explain visually. I'll give it a try.

 

20A

20A

20A

20A

20A (1)

 

10B (2)

10B (3)

10B

10B

10B

 

(1) is our last traded price (LTP).

 

(2) If someone wants to sell, they have to hit at level (2). That would be a TWO down ticks (notice the 'gap', this our spread).

 

(3) Let's imagine you want to sell 15 - motivated seller at market. You will take the 10 at the bid, and 5 from the next price level. We will down tick 3 times.

 

20A

20A

20A

20A

20A Prior LTP

<-- original spread.

<-- notice we have a new gap. Spread is temporarily 2 ticks.

5A <-- LTP

10B

10B

10B

 

Depth would now look like this.

----------------------------

Then, imagine this happens:

 

20A

20A

20A

20A

30A First Trade

40A <--new motivated sellers have come in, offering to sell larger quantites.

30A <-- more sellers

5A <-- LTP

50A <-- The 10Bid has been pulled, and replaced with 50A (50 offered)

1B <-- Someone else pulled orders, leaving only 1B here.

10B

5B

5B

 

Sellers are trying to Jam buyers here. We want to cause pain to whoever is caught long. Buyers are pulling their bids, and the price is trying to be forced lower.

 

Even if we were to BUY in this situation, we have to hit the 50 offered, which is still a downtick from the LTP 1 tick above (where the 5A is).

----------------------------

Next trade:

 

20A

20A

20A

20A

30A First Trade

40A

30A

5A <-- Prior LTP

47A <-- Someone hits the 50A and buys 3. (new LTP)

1B

5B <-- Someone else pulled another 5 bids.

80B <-- Longs are trying to stack the bids, to make it look strong. Probably Bullshit.

50B <-- again, more spoofing of the bid.

 

Price is still downticked, even though someone "paid up" to hit the offer.

----------------------------

Next trade:

 

 

20A

20A

20A

20A

30A First Trade

40A

30A

5A <-- Prior LTP

47A <-- Someone hits the 50A and buys 3. (new LTP)

4A <-- Someone tries to sell 5 at this price, taking the 1B sending it 4A.

<-- Someone else pulled another 5 bids. We have a spread.

8B <-- "Spoof" depth was pulled. He doesn't want to keep it there incase it's hit, now that he's the front of the bid.

50B <-- happy to keep the spoofing there, because he can hide behind the 8B.

 

Price is down ticked by hitting a bid (normal situation). However, we took out the price level, and sent it from being 1B to 4A. Now, if someone wants to sell at market, they will downtick TWICE (because we have a spread) to hit the 8B. If someone inserts an offer ("A") in our spread, a market order will hit that, creating a downtick even though they hit the offer.

 

This pattern can continue indefinitely.

 

When prices are pulled, no trade occurs. If a bid is pulled, and someone inserts an offer, then someone buying at market will still result in a downtick on the T&S.

 

If you think about it, this is how gaps occur on your chart. Prices are pulled, and someone hits market to cross the spread.

 

MANY traders make their money from just mastering this practice, generally locals, because of their speed.

 

E.g.

 

Look at the depth below. Weak sellers up above, and strong bids.

 

2A

2A

2A

2A

 

80B

50B

10B

-----------

2A

2A

2A

2A

5B <- You insert 5 to buy, "leaning" on the 80 B below you (strength).

80B

50B

10B

 

Uh oh. But meanwhile, I'm actually waiting for an idiot like you to do this.

 

2A

2A

2A

2A

5B <- You insert 5 to buy, "leaning" on the 80 B below you (strength).

80B <-- This is MY 78 on top of a "2B"

50B <-- Also MY 45 on top of a "5B"

10B

-----------------

Now you're in trouble. You reason for taking the trade disapeared.

 

2A

2A

2A

2A

45A <--- Sold 50 at this price, taking your 5B and sending it 45A.

2B <-- Pulled my bids

5B <-- Pulled my bids

10B

 

More sellers then come in to Jam any guys who are stuck long. Simultaneously Bids are pulled, sending the market down quickly. The goal is to try and create a wide spread, even for a split second. Hopefully Long Stops go off, sending "sell at market" orders into the market, which cross the spread for us, hitting the bids. Generally, those bids will be our "take profit" bids. Then we can reverse long, and try and kill some shorts who sold because we were selling.

 

Does this answer the question?