How Much Would You Pay to Learn from a Veteran Trader?

[MC 10]

I agree MC. I have/would consider working with other traders but as we discussed, it's not an easy task to make it worthwhile for everyone involved, esp when you are dealing with a stranger for sake of argument. If it was a close friend or family member, I would have no reservations about doing it at no charge. But to freely provide a trading plan to a stranger is not easy for anyone I would think, esp if it took years and thousands upon thousands to get to this point.

 

Whether you find that mentor or not MC, just keep at it and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

I'll make it happen and profit no matter what, that I'm sure of.

This is my passion, thanks for the encouraging words bud.

 

BTW, since you'd teach family are you looking to adopt a 32 year old? I'll make you proud. J/K

I enjoyed our brief brainstorming and wasn't shocked at our conclusion. We both have something to lose and would be trusting a perfect stranger which is a major hurdle.

 

I'm gonna go back and read many of your posts here...I can gain alot from doing that for sure. I have the puzzle pieces, just need to put the last few in place.

 

(I edited a part...I meant that to read we DO see each others side 100% but I'm still typing weird with 1 arm down from surgery. )

[Guest forsearch]

If it was a close friend or family member, I would have no reservations about doing it at no charge. .

 

And I dissent here, Brownsfan.

 

Do you really think that these folks would respect the knowledge that you're willing to impart to them? Mind you, if it's a wet behind the ears niece, nephew or cousin then I suppose you've got nothing to lose, since presumably they don't know any better.

 

But take a grown-up middle-aged working for the mortgage or car note relative or close friend and I suspect that you'll have an uphill battle here. Why? Cause they think that they know it all already. They'll have preconceived notions of the way it's supposed to be, "you know, it ain't work if it's not sweat labor", etc.. etc... etc....:crap:

 

And, of course, they, and those closest to them, will no doubt, be sowing the seeds of doubt in your teaching. They'll take whatever you impart, twist it up and when it doesn't work the way they think it should, blame you for their failure. In other words, folks will try to bring you down to their level just because it's easier to do that than rise up and meet your high expectations of success and competency.

 

It's much the same reason that you shouldn't do business with relatives or friends, let alone lend them money as well. Keeping an arms-length distance will insulate you from their emotional baggage, and allow you to get your trading to where you need it to be, rather than to where they may want you to keep you at.

 

-fs

[thetatrader1520887476 10]

You can only give some one so much info and it is what they do with it that will make them a good trader. Most succesful traders learn many diffrent techniques from diffrent sucesful traders. And when they get there brain wired right and make a few techniques their own thats when they will make money. So what ever you charge or don't charge does not make a difrence.

[BlowFish 10]

 

My point once again is if you happen to find a mentor who is a good teacher - are you a good enough student to be able to radically change your whole life in the short period that you are being mentored? Because this is what most people would have to do!

 

 

Extremely good point so bears repeating in my view! It is why 'x month mentoring' programs are likely to fail.

[Guest MRC & Co]

Blowfish hit the nail on the head.

[steve46 12]

I happen to live near a gentleman who is a mental health professional. Skilled man, medical school, author, lots of experience. I remember a comment of his that relates to this subject. Basically he said that people are complex, their motivations only partly knowable to the rest of us...we want to believe good things about our neighbors and in most respects we can, knowing we share a common ground of values. As regards our talents and our capacities, people have enormous capacity for change if they are properly motivated. If there is a limiting factor it is that same capacity for complacense, to be satisfied with who we are right now....and to look no further....left alone with our complacent attitudes, as we age it becomes more difficult to change or adopt new behaviors. We are what we are at that point and only with extreme effort or in response to dramatic outside forces (war, illness, personal loss) can we change our behaviors.

 

Over a period of years I have taught several people to trade successfully. Also I have tried to teach a few unsuccessfully. In one or two instances our lack of success is probably due to the inability to find a common ground, a way to relate. The money issue is really about motivation more than anything else. I notice that people don't really pay attention....and aren't really motivated to make the effort necessary to learn....unless they have paid a significant price for the education they are trying to get...

 

From experience I can say that there are three things that need to happen to create a successful teacher student relationship

 

1. The student needs to be fully motivated, probably by paying a significant fee for the education

2. The teacher needs to be a person of good will, who has the capacity and the willingness to teach effectively

3. The student needs to feel they are making consistent progress toward goals that have been established in advance by both parties.

 

Now if you think about this, you can surely understand why it is so hard to obtain success in this field. All the comments about verifying that a teacher is successful...blah blah blah..is crap...none of it matters...a teacher is a person who knows how and is willing to teach...a student is a person willing to do the hard work of learning and changing their behavior....and frankly it is a matter of luck that they find each other.

 

and I wish you the best of luck if that is what you are looking for

 

Steve

Edited November 22, 2008 by steve46

[jonbig04 10]

Interesting thread. Im happy to say I learn from a veteran trader everyday. To say my trading has improved would be an understatement. I don't pay a dime. Its a rare thing I'm sure, but their are traders out there who make boatloads in the market and want nothing but to help others along.

[steve46 12]

Yes Jonbig, if you are talking about Anek I agree, he seems a good enough fellow. Unfortunately he is not available to just anyone off the street. In your comment you fail to make that understood....giving readers the impression that this alternative exists for them as well. Perhaps it does, but in my experience it is extremely unusual.

[jonbig04 10]

True, I got unbelievably lucky, but Im just some random guy. If it could happen to me it could happen to anybody, but like I said it is a rare thing...but there are people out there who know how to trade and are willing to teach others. I hope to be one of them one day.

[nyctrader 10]

Any idea what the requirements are to join Anek's room?

[jonbig04 10]

Any idea what the requirements are to join Anek's room?

 

It's pretty tough, he gets a hundred or so requests per week.

[wjrusnak 10]

I happen to live near a gentleman who is a mental health professional. Skilled man, medical school, author, lots of experience. I remember a comment of his that relates to this subject. Basically he said that people are complex, their motivations only partly knowable to the rest of us...we want to believe good things about our neighbors and in most respects we can, knowing we share a common ground of values. As regards our talents and our capacities, people have enormous capacity for change if they are properly motivated. If there is a limiting factor it is that same capacity for complacense, to be satisfied with who we are right now....and to look no further....left alone with our complacent attitudes, as we age it becomes more difficult to change or adopt new behaviors. We are what we are at that point and only with extreme effort or in response to dramatic outside forces (war, illness, personal loss) can we change our behaviors.

 

Over a period of years I have taught several people to trade successfully. Also I have tried to teach a few unsuccessfully. In one or two instances our lack of success is probably due to the inability to find a common ground, a way to relate. The money issue is really about motivation more than anything else. I notice that people don't really pay attention....and aren't really motivated to make the effort necessary to learn....unless they have paid a significant price for the education they are trying to get...

 

From experience I can say that there are three things that need to happen to create a successful teacher student relationship

 

1. The student needs to be fully motivated, probably by paying a significant fee for the education

2. The teacher needs to be a person of good will, who has the capacity and the willingness to teach effectively

3. The student needs to feel they are making consistent progress toward goals that have been established in advance by both parties.

 

Now if you think about this, you can surely understand why it is so hard to obtain success in this field. All the comments about verifying that a teacher is successful...blah blah blah..is crap...none of it matters...a teacher is a person who knows how and is willing to teach...a student is a person willing to do the hard work of learning and changing their behavior....and frankly it is a matter of luck that they find each other.

 

and I wish you the best of luck if that is what you are looking for

 

Steve

 

Ironically, I'm paying for my college courses at the moment, but spending more time obsessively researching futures trading strategies. Thankfully, I'll do fine in the classes, but just wanted to point that out. Dedication to trading...

[kchaskel 10]

Why charge anything at alll? If we mentor others in our business we all benefit on many fronts: more allies/viewpoints in the market, greater liquidity, more players. Part of the problem in the market today is so many are on the sidelines that liquidity has become impaired.

 

There was a time that trading was a community of gentleman - not thieves in Brooks Brothers suits! Why not try to help some young guys and hope they can help the old guys!

[brownsfan019 17]

Why charge anything at alll? If we mentor others in our business we all benefit on many fronts: more allies/viewpoints in the market, greater liquidity, more players. Part of the problem in the market today is so many are on the sidelines that liquidity has become impaired.

 

What are you trading that liquidity is 'impaired'?

 

There was a time that trading was a community of gentleman - not thieves in Brooks Brothers suits! Why not try to help some young guys and hope they can help the old guys!

 

Not sure when this time existed b/c as long as I've been trading and before that was a broker, this business has always been about making money for yourself. Some do that, get out and move on; others stick around and keep going for bigger returns.

[XDTrader 10]

You know what the b*tch of it all is too CW? I love working with people and helping others out. I would actually enjoy the teaching aspect of trading but as my above post mentions, there's too many ways for something like this to backfire on me (or the person doing the mentoring).

 

That's why I think the price would have to be such that at the very least, I am compensated for the work that took me years to do...

 

It's a tough pickle. And probably why my work will die with me or be passed on to my yet unborn son(s).

 

 

An Iron clad NDA, legal agreement, and future payments placed in escrow would seemingly prevent any potential "backfiring" imo.

 

There is so much more to be gained than monetary compensation. That is a myopic view. Investing in the life of someone else yields lifelong, (perhaps longer?) rewards.

 

It is usually when we die to self a little, WE are the ones that reap the most from the experience.

[brownsfan019 17]

An Iron clad NDA, legal agreement, and future payments placed in escrow would seemingly prevent any potential "backfiring" imo.

 

There is so much more to be gained than monetary compensation. That is a myopic view. Investing in the life of someone else yields lifelong, (perhaps longer?) rewards.

 

It is usually when we die to self a little, WE are the ones that reap the most from the experience.

 

I agree XD and if not talking about a complete stranger, I am right there w/ you. When I initially posed the question, it was from the view point of teaching a complete stranger your methodology for the purposes of making extra money.

 

I do like the idea of an escrow account though... of course, that entails the other party being able to have enough funds to place in escrow and enough to trade so that it remains worthwhile for all.

[thnickster 10]

I can teach people mechanically how to make profitable trades, but I cannot make them abide by what I teach them. Even when I have spent days with them and taken profitable live trades in front of them..held their hand.. it often went bad for them. Everybody has a different psychological makeup. Day trading plays into every bad habit you can have. An emini trader, essentially, must become a robot. An hour after I left my first coachee..the phone rang. "I did exactly as you showed me and I'm down $500. Well..you guessed it. They didn't. Because I was sitting and watching the same charts and saw no trades.

 

I disagree that an emini trader has to know all the formulas for calculating the oscillators. They are mostly worthless anyway as they are all lagging. Taking crosses of macd or

CCI..it is all late. Learning the inside of how MACD is created is an unsuccessful traders exercise. What you have to know about MACD (which I don't use anymore) is the divergence patterns VS price. I only trade two areas and have had days of 8 trades..and no trades. If I don't get what I exactly want..forget it. Just my 2 cents.

[MightyMouse 12]

I can teach people mechanically how to make profitable trades, but I cannot make them abide by what I teach them. Even when I have spent days with them and taken profitable live trades in front of them..held their hand.. it often went bad for them. Everybody has a different psychological makeup. Day trading plays into every bad habit you can have. An emini trader, essentially, must become a robot. An hour after I left my first coachee..the phone rang. "I did exactly as you showed me and I'm down $500. Well..you guessed it. They didn't. Because I was sitting and watching the same charts and saw no trades.

 

I disagree that an emini trader has to know all the formulas for calculating the oscillators. They are mostly worthless anyway as they are all lagging. Taking crosses of macd or

CCI..it is all late. Learning the inside of how MACD is created is an unsuccessful traders exercise. What you have to know about MACD (which I don't use anymore) is the divergence patterns VS price. I only trade two areas and have had days of 8 trades..and no trades. If I don't get what I exactly want..forget it. Just my 2 cents.

 

Your post is somewhat of a breach of protocol. Please identify yourself as a vendor.

[thnickster 10]

I am not a vendor. Do you see anything anywhere in my remarks where I am pushing some product? Don't understand what you mean. Do you understand what you mean? Just offering up some opinions based upon many years of experience.

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

An hour after I left my first coachee..the phone rang. "I did exactly as you showed me and I'm down $500. Well..you guessed it. They didn't. Because I was sitting and watching the same charts and saw no trades.

 

While I fully appreciate the point that you're making about people's ability to muck up even with a profitable strategy due to their own psychological makeup . . . has it occurred to you that mistakes such as the one you describe could be the product of poor teach and a student left not having fully understood your strategy? Or a genuine ambiguity or subjectivity in the strategy?

 

Bluehorseshoe

[BlueHorseshoe 10]

There was a time that trading was a community of gentleman - not thieves in Brooks Brothers suits! Why not try to help some young guys and hope they can help the old guys!

 

You seem to have a bit of a rose-tinted view, but to some extent, isn't a forum like this one just a modern electronic 'community of gentlemen'? Admittedly there is the odd thief around, but I've certainly gained plenty from just a few months of talking with other traders on here. And if I have a specific query, I can get brief and to-the-point input from countless people, rather than relying on one particular mentor's viewpoint. Although none of this is perhaps the same as me going and sitting in front of a computer screen with a coach for a week, it certainly has other advantages in my opinion.

 

Bluehorseshoe

[onesmith 10]

It's not worth anything. There's more value in my passionate obsession with spreading disinformation.

[wrbtrader 10]

I can teach people mechanically how to make profitable trades, but I cannot make them abide by what I teach them. Even when I have spent days with them and taken profitable live trades in front of them..held their hand.. it often went bad for them. Everybody has a different psychological makeup. Day trading plays into every bad habit you can have. An emini trader, essentially, must become a robot. An hour after I left my first coachee..the phone rang. "I did exactly as you showed me and I'm down $500. Well..you guessed it. They didn't. Because I was sitting and watching the same charts and saw no trades...

 

I strongly believe a student should not be left alone to trade via real-money for the first time unless you are their to guide him/her through their first day of real-money trading because everybody knows that real-money trading is a lot different than simulator trading or hindsight chart learning.

 

Hopefully, that was as much of a learning experience for you as it was for your student in that you no longer allow a student to trade on their own the first time with real-money. Thus, you now give in-person mentoring on the first day of real-money trading and/or you provide a real-time chat room for your clients to use where you're available on their first day of real-money trading. If they choose not to use your support on their first day of real-money trading and things go bad for them...that's on them.

 

If you don't understand, just view this from a sports perspective. Just imagine the fallout if coaches of professional athletes or amateurs just didn't show up to watch or coach their athletes on their first day of real competition...

 

The coach would get fired and/or create an environment where the coach is viewed as not reliable.

Edited April 8, 2012 by wrbtrader

[onesmith 10]

I strongly believe a student should not be left alone to trade via real-money for the first time unless you are their to guide him/her through their first day of real-money trading because everybody knows that real-money trading is a lot different than simulator trading or hindsight chart learning.

 

Hopefully, that was as much of a learning experience for you as it was for your student in that you no longer allow a student to trade on their own the first time with real-money. Thus, you now give in-person mentoring on the first day of real-money trading and/or you provide a real-time chat room for your clients to use where you're available on their first day of real-money trading. If they choose not to use your support on their first day of real-money trading and things go bad for them...that's on them.

 

If you don't understand, just view this from a sports perspective. Just imagine the fallout if coaches of professional athletes or amateurs just didn't show up to watch or coach their athletes on their first day of real competition...

 

The coach would get fired and/or create an environment where the coach is viewed as not reliable.

 

Your post is a BLATANT breach of protocol. Please identify yourself as a VENDOR.

[wrbtrader 10]

Your post is a BLATANT breach of protocol. Please identify yourself as a VENDOR.

 

My constructive criticism of a vendor is not a breach of protocol and you may want to talk to the current forum management and past forum management specifically because they know who I am.

 

Further, I recommend you read my earlier past public messages with forum management about vendors considering you do not have access to the private messages between them and I. At least at the very minimum...I highly recommend you contact them directly to voice your opinion if you feel something is wrong about my criticism. I assure you they are very comfortable with my status and purpose here.

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/sendmessage.php

 

Is it possible you were asking thnickster to identify himself as a vendor when you quoted me in my constructive criticism about one of his students trading alone for the first time with real-money.

Edited April 8, 2012 by wrbtrader