How Much Would You Pay to Learn from a Veteran Trader?

[brownsfan019 17]

I had an interesting discussion today with a trading friend/colleague and the question posed to me was - how much money would it take for you to teach what you know?

 

I wasn't quite sure how to respond. In my mind, the hours and thousands of dollars spent is priceless. His reply to me was - but for the right price, wouldn't anyone consider an offer?

 

:hmmmm:

 

I asked why he was asking and he was approached by someone willing to pay what I would consider an offer with entertaining if he would mentor him...

 

I guess it's the age old question, right? Would you sell your trading 'secrets' for the right price? If so, what's the right price? And why?

 

I told him that to gauge the seriousness of the offer, that the offer would need to be substantial to begin with - money up-front and some sort of % of profits or something.

 

After thinking about it, it's a great way to annuitize your business if your pupil(s) make money. There's my broker side coming out - the important of annuitizing your income stream... those were the days.

[CandleWhisperer 10]

Well, BF, you have given away a few nuggets in these threads so I hope no price is enough. LOL

 

What if you could pay all your bills and all your externalities through mentoring one or more traders, while simply growing your account through trading? The price in this case doesn't have to be that much. It merely has to keep food on the table and you living the life you are accustomed too.

 

The real age old question is: Do you believe that there are really any trading secrets? And if so, do you believe that sharing them to a limited amount of people will render them null?

[brownsfan019 17]

Well, BF, you have given away a few nuggets in these threads so I hope no price is enough. LOL

 

What if you could pay all your bills and all your externalities through mentoring one or more traders, while simply growing your account through trading? The price in this case doesn't have to be that much. It merely has to keep food on the table and you living the life you are accustomed too.

 

The real age old question is: Do you believe that there are really any trading secrets? And if so, do you believe that sharing them to a limited amount of people will render them null?

 

Yeah, I don't know. Seriously.

 

I would enjoy mentoring a few up and comers to be honest myself. But it would have to be on my terms and my conditions. For example, I would WANT face-to-face time. I know the internet is great and all, but there's a lot be said to face-to-face time.

 

Almost like a mini-prop shop type thing really. Of course, the issue then is how long before these people jump ship b/c they don't want to pay me... And how long before I have competition? How long before the trading plan is floating around the internet...

 

I am a skeptical person, so from my point of view, not sure it could work even for some serious money.

 

I don't know... a thought provoking question that's for sure. As my appearance in the VSA thread showed, I'm ok with asking those tough questions. It may not make everyone happy, but it's good to have someone asking those questions.

[brownsfan019 17]

You know what the b*tch of it all is too CW? I love working with people and helping others out. I would actually enjoy the teaching aspect of trading but as my above post mentions, there's too many ways for something like this to backfire on me (or the person doing the mentoring).

 

That's why I think the price would have to be such that at the very least, I am compensated for the work that took me years to do...

 

It's a tough pickle. And probably why my work will die with me or be passed on to my yet unborn son(s).

[james_gsx 16]

Heres what you have to remember, you have to charge as much as the customer is willing to pay. This is intellectual information we are talking about, which is a very valuable commodity.

 

I have had a few people tell me I could charge for the face-to-face meetings I have with them and teach them things I know. But in reality, I'm not as great as I want to be nor am I nearly as good as those I learn from. But to them, I am almost like a God.

 

But heres the other problem, in reality your trading style should theoretically only work with you. It's designed to fit your personality, and no two personalities are the same. So you could charge someone $20,000 to teach them for 6 months and they could walk away confused as hell - simply because your style doesn't work with their personality. Yet I could charge them $5 and teach them more, because my system works with their personality better. Even though you are the better trader at the end of the day.

 

I would never pay a veteran trader to teach me his system or anything like that. I would pay to have someone watch over my shoulder and point out things that I don't pick up on myself during the day. Things such as emotions, impulse trades, failure to see the opportunities present, etc. That is something that would be valuable to me, but not to others.

 

Just my two cents.

[BlowFish 10]

Tough question. Trouble is 'trading' can not really be taught there are certainly very few 'secrets'. Most people would spend a lot of mullah to be 'mentored' by Tiger and would expect to get top advice and even have there game improve. I don't think many would be under the illusion that they could turn pro in a month or six.

 

Having said that I guess the journey can be shortened by a good mentor. Of course the mentee has to believe what he is being told. Early in my education I spent quite a bit of time and money on tuition however just could not accept much of the stuff I was taught.

 

Nihabashi has written in great detail about what to expect from a mentor and what a mentor should expect from a pupil. It's on ET somewhere. Personally I would certainly not enter into any business relationship with someone who's expectations where not congruent with mine.

[Nvesta81 10]

I'd be willing to pay 5% of my trading account. The way I see it, I'll lose that 5% if I don't get the proper education anyway, so might as well hand it over to a professional who can point me in the right direction. However, I would 'shop around' before I select a mentor.

[brownsfan019 17]

Interesting posts.

 

James brought up an interesting idea - more of a 'look over your shoulders' type thing. Quite interesting actually.

 

:hmmmm:

[Sledge 13]

Brownsfan-

I went in the opposite direction. I started a Trade Show Consulting business and worked and worked to gain customers, I knew they needed the help- they ASKED me for the help. They even asked me what I charged to help. Telling them the "average hourly fee" never phased them- until they realized that I couldn't build them a marketing direction, pre-show training, boothmanship training, etc. etc. in say 1 hour! Hit them with a proposal that is LESS than they would spend for 1 more BAD show- to learn it for life. 95% of them caved and said "Whoa that is way too much."

 

I was working to teach them "how to fish" rather than "be given a fish." I got so frustrated at their short-sightedness that I gave it up all together. I moved onto trading. I control when I pull the trigger, I take my wins, I take my losses- but I don't rely on anyone but me to do it.

 

Sledge

[brownsfan019 17]

Brownsfan-

I went in the opposite direction. I started a Trade Show Consulting business and worked and worked to gain customers, I knew they needed the help- they ASKED me for the help. They even asked me what I charged to help. Telling them the "average hourly fee" never phased them- until they realized that I couldn't build them a marketing direction, pre-show training, boothmanship training, etc. etc. in say 1 hour! Hit them with a proposal that is LESS than they would spend for 1 more BAD show- to learn it for life. 95% of them caved and said "Whoa that is way too much."

 

I was working to teach them "how to fish" rather than "be given a fish." I got so frustrated at their short-sightedness that I gave it up all together. I moved onto trading. I control when I pull the trigger, I take my wins, I take my losses- but I don't rely on anyone but me to do it.

 

Sledge

 

Good points Sledge. If I ever embarked on something like this, it would be on my terms. Problem is, not sure my terms could ever be met to be honest.

[zdo 20]

On one level a mentor would not charge one thin dime – unless s/he needs the money. (and then the question becomes is s/he eligible to mentor :hmmmm: )

The mentor would feel ‘payed’ by being blessed to have found someone willing to do the work, answer the tough questions, and develop in accordance with their own nature.

Most potential mentors believe that the most important function is imparting knowledge / sharing shortcuts and techniques. NOT! The mentor’s most important function is asking the right questions of the student at the right time - Questions that engage the ‘whole brain’. Qualified questions will test of the efficacy of the relationship for both sides and will prevent either party from ever ‘wasting’ the other’s time or money.

 

Ask the mentoree to clarify their goals for the process. Ask the mentoree to place a value on what that would be worth to him/her when goals are accomplished and s/he is operational at new level. Have mentoree contract to pay that amount ( or percentage of profits) if s/he feels the original goals were accomplished in the training period.

[brownsfan019 17]

On one level a mentor would not charge one thin dime – unless s/he needs the money. (and then the question becomes is s/he eligible to mentor :hmmmm: )

The mentor would feel ‘payed’ by being blessed to have found someone willing to do the work, answer the tough questions, and develop in accordance with their own nature.

Most potential mentors believe that the most important function is imparting knowledge / sharing shortcuts and techniques. NOT! The mentor’s most important function is asking the right questions of the student at the right time - Questions that engage the ‘whole brain’. Qualified questions will test of the efficacy of the relationship for both sides and will prevent either party from ever ‘wasting’ the other’s time or money.

 

Ask the mentoree to clarify their goals for the process. Ask the mentoree to place a value on what that would be worth to him/her when goals are accomplished and s/he is operational at new level. Have mentoree contract to pay that amount ( or percentage of profits) if s/he feels the original goals were accomplished in the training period.

 

Well said zdo - how to find someone that wants to mentor but is not doing it just b/c of the $.

 

This whole thing is not an easy business decision.

 

I wonder if my friend will do it or not...

[CandleWhisperer 10]

In the true sense of the word, a mentor would not charge. He/she would want to lend a hand to someone because someone first lent them one on the way to the top.

 

Here, we use the term mentor in lieu of the words teacher or coach. Jordan had a coach. Tiger Woods has a coach. Most of the elite persons in their fields have coaches. Why would trading be different? Note that Tiger's coach teaches the best golfers in the world, but IS NOT one himself. He is the best Golf Coach in the world.

 

The issue may be that the secret to trading is that there are no secrets. Put as a question, "are there truly any secrets to trading?" But a mentor/coach should be FAR more than "This is when you buy, or this is when you sell". A mentor teaches you how to set up a business. How to handle the pull back as CNBC reports GDP and all the anchors are gloom and doom. Or conversely, how to disregard perma bull BOB Pasoni (SP?) and focus on what the Tape is actually saying.

 

As far as price, I think the mentor need only charge enough to cover living expenses and externalities. The money made in the market would just go to grow the account.

[darthtrader 10]

The only thing I could see doing would be to have your own personal clerk/coffee maker/slave. I would somewhat expect that if someone truely would want to take the time to teach me something along these lines I shouldn't be able to afford them in straight up money terms.

On the other end when I get to the point that I would consider myself a master trader, I don't see what someone could really offer if they weren't related to me.

When I eventually have a kid this stuff will start very early, haha.

[zdo 20]

Good distinctions btwn coaching and mentoring and teaching, Candle.

All three want to help the student help themselves

Teachers want to impart the information and methods and get out.

Coaches want to work with the individual or unit at levels beyond information and skills.

Mentors want to model exploration in a ‘right living’ sort of way.

 

As I have posted elsewhere, the chances of finding a trading coach that can see the fine details (like Tiger’s coach) of how you can improve instead of trying to impose his own subjective improvement plan onto the student are EXTREMELY low. 90% of trading coaches are ‘wounded healers’, really in it to fix themselves. Mostly they attract traders who have already sustained significant ‘psychological damage’ (in the MarkDouglas sense), and they are not anywhere close to competent enough to help the trader recover… They leave a trail of low value service behind them - and as soon as they ‘get it’ for themselves they no longer coach

 

Golf is a single game to refine a limited number of swings. Trading is thousands of games. Of the remaining 10% of coaches, one would still have to find one with an sufficient level of style and personality match. “It’s not whether you can be a good trader; it’s whether you can find the trading that’s good for you.” (B Steenbarger in ETP) and if you are being coached by someone who has style biases even just a little bit out of phase with yours– the relationship accomplishments will be drastically reduced. Bottom line – finding a coach who “construes” across enough dimensions almost the same as you is like finding that one particular single cell individual in the ocean.

 

 

____________________________________

 

Darth, exposing that baby to such material is just plain wrong and you know it.

I'm calling Child Protective Services. :o

[Rocky Mtn Trader 10]

Going back to the golf analogy. Yes, Tiger does have a coach. The top golf coaches are extremely good golfers....in fact, they are as good as most pro golfers.

 

The difference is this....Some of the top teaches/coaches...ie, Butch Harmon and Hank Haney are missing one thing that kept them from competing on the pro circuit.

 

They don't have the mental toughness. I don't know if any of you are golfers, but mental toughness is what makes good golfers...great golfers. Trying to make a 6 foot putt when you are under a tremendous amount of pressure is not easy for a weak minded person. In other words...these coaches can't handle the pressure...therefore, they have found that they are very good teachers of the game.

 

Trading is similar. For example.....

 

You can take a very experienced Trader. This trader is successful, has a good trading plan, executes good trades, etc.

 

This Trader can take 10 newbie traders and show them all EXACTLY what he knows...every trick....every secret.

 

The outcome or success of each of these 10 traders would be different. Each one of these 10 people would develop their own style and technique.

 

What it all boils down to is MENTAL toughness. Successful traders are mentally tough. They have learned how to control there emotions to make rational decisions. They have learned to recognize.

 

I agree with what james gsx said. The best coach/mentor/teacher is one that shows the student what is needed, then watches the student perform or react to the instructions given. Each one of these students will have a different reaction to the same instructions. A good teacher will watch over the shoulder and help the student become mentally aware or tough.

 

Good thread Brownsfan. If I become a very good trader and the question is posed to me about teaching someone...I would do it. Not for the money though...but for the satisfaction of passing along what I've learned to help someone else. A lot of people have helped me along the way...I don't have a problem with showing others what I've learned.

 

I also am not threatened to show someone my setups. I guarantee that no one has a unique setup in this day and age. I've had people show me their setups, and after sim trading their methods, I have always found a way to change things that work better for me. Mentoring a student will result in the same. You will show them your setups and after they know what the h*** is going on....they will tweak your setups to better suit their mental toughness and their personality.

 

RMT

.

.

[steve46 12]

Well as regards the question of "how much" my interest is limited. I don't have reason to think in those terms. What does interest me however are comments suggesting that there are "no secrets" and by extension no big differences between professionals and retail traders. This is simply incorrect. Skilled professionals can and do, perform at a level that retail traders cannot, and they do it consistently. I am reminded of a statement by Arnold Palmer during an interview near the end of his career. Responding to a similar comment he said simply "well the truth is you (the amateur player) can't really buy the same equipment, and its very difficult to get the same level of training. At the end of the day, a pro is going to spend more hours practicing than is practical for an amateur player....and that is setting aside the idea of talent".

 

I would never want to prevent a person from aspiring to excellence, but I think its important to have a realistic viewpoint, not only as to the challenges, but also as to what can be accomplished if you can manage to obtain the skills and you have talent.

 

One thing that should encourage retail traders is the fact that unlike some activities, a person who has the skills (statistics, spreadsheet, programming, etc) and the discipline, can sometimes make a "breakthrough" just on the strength of their own work. In this respect, trading is a pursuit that rewards hard work just as much if not more, than "talent".

[lionelhhn 10]

Agree with the couple of posts before.

 

I trained my trading partner for 2 years, just showing what tools there are and how I saw market action. I dont handhold or spoon feed.

Now she trades her own method and set-ups.

 

Am kinda a veteran haha, markets are different now. What worked before may not be as effective in today;s terms. In the 80's I used MP on CQG trading bonds. Cos of the hook up with the liquidity data bank. Now traders use MP on different mkts.

 

Veteran traders either keep learning or fade away.

[Flojomojo 10]

As I'm fairly new to the entire game I was at a point once where I asked myself exactly the question of "How much would I pay someone to teach me trading?" I think the question pops up naturally in the back of every beginning traders mind as he surfs around the net and gets bombarded with "Double your account with my wisdom for only $99 per year!" offers. I took some time to think and came to the following conclusion:

 

All my life, from school through university the people that taught me the most were

- absolutely passionate about their subjects

- knew a lot more about their subjects than they actually needed to teach

- were great people in the first place, teachers in the second

- were doing it because they felt that they were made to teach

- would teach for no money as long as they have enough to live

 

Therefore I would say: If you are not inclined to share your thoughts in the first place, no $$$ amount will make you a good teacher. (Unfortunately this kind of teachers also hung out at my school...) If you are inclined to share your thoughts, you most probably don't take anything at all. (Fortunately quite a few of this type seem to be member in this Forum ...professionals and amateurs alike)

[Kiwi 16]

I disagree with that on so many levels Flojomojo.

 

As a physics student (should I have been one many years earlier) I would have paid enormous amounts to attend a Lecture by Einstein and he hated teaching. Some of my lecturers hated teaching (hell, they hated lecturing) and yet that element of their brilliance that you could hook was worth that available from 10 enthusiasts without the knowledge and insight.

 

Its easier to learn from the passionate (excited, interesting) teacher but if you're looking for that exceptional insight you just need the person with exceptional insight.

 

 

The "and you probably won't take anything at all is absolute lefty bs." Hell, most of the teachers I know are lefty's too (goes with the profession or how would you put up with some of those little sobs) but even those who are passionate about their subjects would be somewhere else if there was no money.

 

So, you're going to have to pay for someone who isn't a friend or family to use up parts of their life on you. You might be so personally appealing and fun to be with that thats the payment (I can think of women like that but I know how hard teaching someone to trade is and I can assure you that you'd have to be funny like JS to reach my hurdle on that).

 

Finally, a number of people have said that when someone doesn't pay they don't tend to stick to it and put the attention in. Paying increases your commitment and your belief in the value. This increases the chance that the wisdom will stick.

 

 

There is no such thing as a free lunch

[Flojomojo 10]

I disagree with that on so many levels Flojomojo.

 

As a physics student (should I have been one many years earlier) I would have paid enormous amounts to attend a Lecture by Einstein and he hated teaching. Some of my lecturers hated teaching (hell, they hated lecturing) and yet that element of their brilliance that you could hook was worth that available from 10 enthusiasts without the knowledge and insight.

 

Its easier to learn from the passionate (excited, interesting) teacher but if you're looking for that exceptional insight you just need the person with exceptional insight.

 

I agree with you on this one. The point I tried to bring across is that if we are talking about 'teaching basics' I was always better off with the type described by me above. For the special insight into some topic you'd better know the nuts and bolts. Especially when the genius is a bad teacher you need to understand what he's talking about in the first place to be able to feed on his genius thinking.

 

There is no such thing as a free lunch

 

True! If I stay the whole day at a trading mentors place and don't get money from him for looking over his shoulder, I still have to pay my rent, breakfast, dinner...and even lunch as well. The financial burden I commit to myself in this case definitely grabs my attention! If I had a regular job and would want to learn EOD trading I would/could pay for it.

[waveslider 10]

Waiting for a trade and thought I would chime in.

 

There are a lot of well thought ideas here, and I think those of you who are getting down to WHO the actual trader/teacher is (personality type) and who the actual student is are on track.

 

It goes without saying that time is money (ok I said it), and not trading to teach is giving up potential $. My point is that if the TEACHER is a great trader, but not a good teacher, or the STUDENT is full of desire, but has a personality problem (need to be right, fear of losing, etc.), then both are wasting their time AND money.

 

If or when you become a successful trader, you inevitably run across people (friends too) who don't understand what you do, but envy your lifestyle. Working at home, creating your own hours, etc. Personally I have had people ask me to teach them, but I am not a teacher (in my mind). Furthermore, I do believe that certain personality types become profitable traders much more quickly than others, and the wrong personality type will take many years (that's me).

 

My point once again is if you happen to find a mentor who is a good teacher - are you a good enough student to be able to radically change your whole life in the short period that you are being mentored? Because this is what most people would have to do!

 

The point of this thread : how much would you be willing to pay? Is somewhat moot from the students standpoint, because that amount of money will not make you profitable. Only time and dedication can make you profitable (and sufficient capital). Not the method.

 

From a teachers standpoint, you should be doing it out of the kindness of your heart and love of teaching. This is because it is not reasonable to expect your students to overcome their personality issues in the time you are mentoring them. If you charge them anything other than your cost to mentor them, you are actually hurting them and their ability to succeed (imagine teaching someone to fish but charging them line).

 

Even better, a teacher should think of it from a karmic standpoint, as someone mentioned earlier. Someone taught them, and they feel obligated to do the same.

[brownsfan019 17]

Even better, a teacher should think of it from a karmic standpoint, as someone mentioned earlier. Someone taught them, and they feel obligated to do the same.

 

And what if they are self taught and do not want to turn over their work for nothing in return?

 

A little devil's advocate here.

 

A good thread and interesting ideas but in the end, it's a rather difficult proposition for all parties. Would I mentor/train someone for the right price? Maybe. And that's a big maybe.

[MC 10]

Wave hit all my thoughts. It's as much about the student as it is the mentor.

 

You simply can't effectively mentor someone in a short time who hasn't already developed an evolved trading psychology on their own. And we all know most will never get to that point mentally. As a mentor taking on people that weren't almost there by their own power you would un-intentionally (or intentionally) become a snake oil salesman.

 

I'm in this boat where I know I am very VERY close and need a small hand with my timing/setup creation. I would never expect to be mentored for free, but also I can't see paying a hefty amount knowing what I've overcome on my own power and how close I am mentally. In fact I think I could bring some to the table for a mentor, it could be a collaboration that works for all parties under the right circumstances even.

 

If a mentor wants a large sum of money they probably are not screening people properly and will have a poor success rate, doing nothing but lining their own pockets.

 

Hopefully Brown doesn't mind me saying this but he and I have talked a bit. It's so difficult to put a price on what a mentor could provide. We were unable to agree on terms though we did see each others side 100%. It's near as hard coming to agreements as it is learning to trade it would seem.

 

If anyone is interested in a mentoring/collaboration with me please PM me and we'll chat about me mental readiness and you're expectations.

Edited August 26, 2008 by MC

[brownsfan019 17]

Hopefully Brown doesn't mind me saying this but he and I have talked a bit. It's so difficult to put a price on what a mentor could provide. We were unable to agree on terms though we did see each others side 100%. It's near as hard coming to agreements as it is learning to trade it would seem.

 

 

I agree MC. I have/would consider working with other traders but as we discussed, it's not an easy task to make it worthwhile for everyone involved, esp when you are dealing with a stranger for sake of argument. If it was a close friend or family member, I would have no reservations about doing it at no charge. But to freely provide a trading plan to a stranger is not easy for anyone I would think, esp if it took years and thousands upon thousands to get to this point.

 

Whether you find that mentor or not MC, just keep at it and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Edited August 26, 2008 by MC