Holding Yourself Accountable

[brownsfan019 17]

I realize this is a redundant thread of something I started awhile back, but after the discussion in this thread, I realized that maybe part of the issue at hand here for me is having a lack of accountability.

 

I have a great significant other that is very supportive and willing to listen, when I am willing to talk... In other words, our conversations about my day range from me talking for awhile to "good". Usually "good" is code for, I just don't feel like talking about a bad day.

 

And it's easy for me to leave it at that as she doesn't push too hard.

 

I can't be the only one in our TL community thinking - I could really use some more accountability here... Maybe I am, who knows.

 

But we have such a good core group of traders here that I thought I would toss this out there and see what is hit back at me...

 

The real question is - how/who/when/where/etc do you make yourself accountable so that you stay on track and keep pushing for more (if you do at all)? And if you don't, why not?

 

I just recall my days a broker where being accountable and knowing that you would be singled out was enough motivation for me to always be in the top part of the class. I simply did not want to be 'that guy' that is always struggling...

 

So what are some ideas for accountability then? I mean, we live in a world where technology makes just about anything possible, so what are some ways that myself (and others here if interested) could be more accountable?

 

My ideas:

 

1) A "How was your day thread". This is the question that is asked by our loved ones, but we don't always feel like opening up. This thread could go anywhere... your thoughts, comments, charts, P&L captures, etc. etc.

 

2) A straight, P&L thread as

this elitetrader thread

has. Simple, easy and quick to maintain. Of course, requires some dedication and honesty to work.

 

3) Something bigger... maybe something with videos, youtube, etc... Camtasia makes recording vid's so easy that maybe there's something here...

 

4) Blog. I know this could work, but I also don't know that I want to maintain one...

 

Some ideas...

 

Maybe James has an idea or two on the programming side that could work if there was interest.

 

I guess it just boils down to being accountable to the point where you are motivated to do your job and do it consistently...

 

Let the discussion begin.

[james_gsx 16]

I like this idea, but I think the ideas can range greatly depending on skill and various other things.

 

For example a newbie probably shouldn't be held accountable on p&l, but instead he should be held accountable on his trading plan. I have a meeting every Friday with the guy who funds me and I make him hold me accountable. We sit down and discuss what trades were taken and why, and if they were apart of my trading plan. You can grade each trade, and then sum up the total of the day. An example of this would be.

 

4 - Trade that was in your plan, and the target was hit.

3 - Trade that was in your plan - got out before target was hit but was profitable

2 - broke even

1 - stop was hit

0 - Trade taken not in the plan, profitable or not.

 

You can also grade each set of trades specifically in excel. This may help to find inefficient trades, and other possible patterns.

 

With a more experienced trader, there could be other ways to hold accountability that might include P&L. But sharing that sort of thing with others is sort of taboo, and some might not feel comfortable telling others.

 

Blogs work, but take up a ton of time. Same with making videos.

 

This could be a good thread, and it would be nice to have a part of the forum specifically for accountability. Maybe not an actual forum, but something separate like our blogs and videos.

[brownsfan019 17]

Good ideas James! A scoring system could work - either based on each trade or the entire trading day.

 

Some ideas to consider.

[torero 10]

I think trading is one of the trickiest part in holding yourself accountable. Other than the fact that you're the only one who caused the losses in your equity, that's the obvious example. But others, that's more difficult to do, especially having another person who may trade totally different from you, so he may or may not know your plan or system by heart to tell you where you go right or wrong. Worst, trading is a lone job so it's even more difficult to get anyone involved.

 

Currently, I trade with my dad so it's obvious the accountability is open everyday through our communication and of course our daily P/L. Getting someone involved has to be the right person who understands the same objective is right way. Maybe not necessarily your boss but an equal but tough-ass, "call it as I see it" kind of trader as your mentor/partner.

[BlowFish 10]

Maybe keepinga journal thread, guess the fashionable way to do that is via a blog nowadays.

 

Theres a couple of prongs to this attack. Simply by keeping a journal you force yourself to be more accountable (depending on how well it's done).

 

Secondly if you outline your goals up front you might get critiques and 'peer pressure' from kindly souls here.

 

I dont think strings of numbers are likely to cut it but short succinct dialogue might?

[james_gsx 16]

I think something that would help is if we defined what we believe accountability to be.

[brownsfan019 17]

  james_gsx said:

I think something that would help is if we defined what we believe accountability to be.

 

IMO, accountability for your trading biz = knowing that you have to answer to or tell someone what you did (or didn't do) in your business that day.

 

And knowing that you will have to answer to someone should hopefully provide added motivation to get the job done properly.

[brownsfan019 17]

  BlowFish said:

Maybe keepinga journal thread, guess the fashionable way to do that is via a blog nowadays.

 

Theres a couple of prongs to this attack. Simply by keeping a journal you force yourself to be more accountable (depending on how well it's done).

 

Secondly if you outline your goals up front you might get critiques and 'peer pressure' from kindly souls here.

 

I dont think strings of numbers are likely to cut it but short succinct dialogue might?

 

I see what you are saying BF...

 

I just don't want/need to devote an immense amount of time to this either. A blog requires time and dedication. A journal requires time and dedication. And I don't want something to turn into a - please show me how you trade thread either...

 

That's why I liked James_gsx's idea of creating a little template type thing where you quickly and easily answer the question we all get from our significant others - How was your day?

[james_gsx 16]

So maybe something we could easily implement in the forums would be a template like I mentioned. It doesn't need to be in the actual forum, but in say the profile section. It could be public or private - private meaning only specific people we select have access to it. That way those who have similar trading styles and goals can help hold us accountable, instead of people who trade completely different or have different goals.

 

You could also do this easily in Excel, and then you can get creative and come up with graphs and other things. Then you can simply print it off and throw it into a binder to keep and review on a weekly or monthly basis. You could look for trends, and other patterns in your work. This could be especially useful for full time traders that view their trading as a true business.

 

The only hard part would be coming up with the questions and style of template. Also this would go completely on the honor system. It would also require discipline to be honest with yourself and post it up for others you trust to ask you serious questions. But in the long run, that can be very helpful.

[Sparrow 10]

My day was like this(profit in pips):

 

  Quote

win #t % avg tot net

8 10 80 6.5 65.4 53.9

 

last week's worst day, didn't stick to my system, revenge trading:

 

  Quote

win #t % avg tot net

5 15 33.3 -2.4 -36.3 -55.2

 

numbers don't lie

Edited March 11, 2008 by Sparrow

[james_gsx 16]

Nice job just coming out Sparrow! haha

 

Tomorrow afternoon I will take a few screenshots and share my template I use for excel. I won't lie though, I don't use it as often as I should.

[BlowFish 10]

To be honest the more you put in the more value its likely to be to you.

 

Without knowing what you are trying to achieve no one can really judge whether you achieved it or not. Sparrows blotter snipette is a good example. Did he do what he should? Did he behave responsibly? Was he accountable? How can we possibly know?

 

For there to be any value to anyone (poster or accountant) there needs to be a set of criteria that the 'results' can be judged against otherwise it's pointless putting it on view.

 

To be accountable to yourself you need to describe precisely what you should be doing. To be accountable to 'us' you need to describe to us precisely what you should be doing. There is no other way, anything less and you are simply paying lip service to being accountable rather than actually being accountable.

 

Forgive the harsh tone, it is directed inward (towards myself) as much as anything

[BlowFish 10]

Just another thought a trading room is a possible place to 'be accountable' if it is structured like that. Again you need to let people know what you are trying to achieve rather than just call trades. For example you exit at 36.35 a bit too late/soon with the right sort of room you can state why and hold yourself accountable to your colleagues. Actually in the right sort of room where people know how you trade somone is likely to put you on the spot and say 'why did you exit there'.

 

Walter seemed to use the TL room like that to a degree, Adam also perhaps. Even if you are not being reviewed by your peers the act of describing your actions to other people is likely to make you consider more carefully and so be more accountable to yourself. The more detail the more you are likely to get from it.

[Sparrow 10]

You've got a point there, it's possible to make all the wrong decisions and still make money while picking up some bad habits. However more often than not it will show in your statistics and I don't have to think hard to identify what went wrong that day.

For a precise analysis video & journals are better, but if you just want quick results or find the days which you'd like to look at more thoroughly, stats are pretty suitable.

It depends how much effort you want to put into it.

[brownsfan019 17]

It would be nice to get something going...

 

And soon instead of having another thread die off into the depths of TL.

 

Anyone else interested or have ideas? Maybe it's time to start a P&L thread here???

[BlowFish 10]

Do you find the ET P&L thread useful? In what way? Its one of the few extremely well moderated ones at least. Maybe I am being dense but I cant see how posting a blotter is going to make you more accountable. Maybe I'm missing something. Today brown made 5 trades and 8 points, next day he made 7 trades and 4 points (was he over trading? hell I dunno) next day 2 trades and 10 points (was he missing entries or was that a great day...I dunno). Thursday he took the day off is that cool? Friday 4 trades all hit a -2 stop perhaps that was the best day as he stuck to the plan flawlessly?

 

Don't get me wrong I think its a really splendid concept honestly I do. IMVHO although a blog or a trade diary synopsis thread is a bit more work its going to pay far far greater dividends in fact I'd go as far as saying infinitely greater dividends but thats only because I think posting a blotter is pretty worthless.

 

Anyway keeping the thread going even if Im being somewhat contrary

[james_gsx 16]

Blowfish, I completely agree that a simple thread saying how many trades we took and points we get is a waste of time. That's why I'm leaning more towards the template idea that we can fill out. This way we can visually see trends in our trading, and what gaps need to be filled. I also believe that setting goals will help, and then by using a template that grades our trades we can see our inefficiencies and possibly what aspect of our trading is helping is get our goal or push us away.

 

Here is currently what I have laid out, it's still a work in progress but input is appreciated. What I have here is the ability to grade each trade, then track the P&L and grade on a daily basis. From there you can use graphs, or whatever works best to track your progress. There is also a section for emotional trades, and those receive an automatic 0. If it's a trade you take on a repeated basis but is not in your plan, add it then it won't be an emotional trade.

 

p.s - all that input I added was random. Not my trading or P&L

 

[brownsfan019 17]

  BlowFish said:

Do you find the ET P&L thread useful? In what way? Its one of the few extremely well moderated ones at least. Maybe I am being dense but I cant see how posting a blotter is going to make you more accountable. Maybe I'm missing something. Today brown made 5 trades and 8 points, next day he made 7 trades and 4 points (was he over trading? hell I dunno) next day 2 trades and 10 points (was he missing entries or was that a great day...I dunno). Thursday he took the day off is that cool? Friday 4 trades all hit a -2 stop perhaps that was the best day as he stuck to the plan flawlessly?

 

Don't get me wrong I think its a really splendid concept honestly I do. IMVHO although a blog or a trade diary synopsis thread is a bit more work its going to pay far far greater dividends in fact I'd go as far as saying infinitely greater dividends but thats only because I think posting a blotter is pretty worthless.

 

Anyway keeping the thread going even if Im being somewhat contrary

 

I know what you mean BF.

 

Yes, I think posting a daily blotter does add some degree of accountability, even if just a small one. If you are expected to post, then you should hopefully post - good or bad.

 

The P&L thread is a basic accountability thread in the truest sense. There's very little to be done by all parties, but it is something rather than nothing...

 

 

 

  james_gsx said:

Blowfish, I completely agree that a simple thread saying how many trades we took and points we get is a waste of time. That's why I'm leaning more towards the template idea that we can fill out. This way we can visually see trends in our trading, and what gaps need to be filled. I also believe that setting goals will help, and then by using a template that grades our trades we can see our inefficiencies and possibly what aspect of our trading is helping is get our goal or push us away.

 

Here is currently what I have laid out, it's still a work in progress but input is appreciated. What I have here is the ability to grade each trade, then track the P&L and grade on a daily basis. From there you can use graphs, or whatever works best to track your progress. There is also a section for emotional trades, and those receive an automatic 0. If it's a trade you take on a repeated basis but is not in your plan, add it then it won't be an emotional trade.

 

p.s - all that input I added was random. Not my trading or P&L

 

 

James,

Very nice what you have here.

 

While we disagree on a P&L thread being a waste of time, unless Soul can program a template type thing that we can use, it will be hard to form a template on our own. We could probably come up with some skeleton format, but it's back to are you just posting your P&L?

 

Anyways, good ideas here but maybe we need to hear from Soul about any other ideas.

[darthtrader 10]

  james_gsx said:

I won't lie though, I don't use it as often as I should.

 

 

I've been thinking about this alot lately. Really, from what is posted in this thread we all basically know what should be done but its more a question of just doing it. I think part of the problem comes though from keeping things inside the computer. The computer can do alot of great things but for other things it seems kind of expendable compared to the physical world.

If someone doesn't stick to their plan and makes dumb trades I don't see how you can replicate a face to face meeting and the shame of messing up on the computer, especially when you have never met the person.

A journal in a blog is a pain to deal with. To me just having Word open is so much more effecient. Then you still run into the computer problem though with things being expendable so you miss journaling days and just get lazy.

Some ideas I've had to combat this are buy a couple of dry erase boards and write down everything that needs to be done the night before for the next trading day. I would think having it in front of your face in physical form is more motivational than having text on a screen that can be instantly saved/changed/deleted. Same thing for a journal. Instead of posting a blog or keeping a word doc that can be saved/changed/deleted, each day write things down in word. Then print out a hard copy but don't save the word document. You have one chance to write things down and thats it. Its kind of like how if you were keeping a journal with pen and paper, your not going to leave a blank page in a notebook to maybe go back and fill it out next week. With a computer you basically have an infinite amount of blank pages that can be inserted in the journal, thats no good as far as enforcing discipline.

I really don't see how even a virtual trading group would work. Everyone would be doing their own thing, with their own money, on their own timeframe all without every actually meeting eachother. The only solution I can see is to either find local traders or try to teach someone to trade who can actually be physically present.

[james_gsx 16]

I think a p&l thread could be useful if the community holds eachother accountable. I think the problem most of us are running into is the inability to hold ourselves accountable. So if discuss things with our peers, it can help us a lot. Maybe not to mentor, but to keep us in check. I believe that if you create achievable and measurable goals and you have a true passion for achieving those goals, that you will find a way to accomplish them. Having someone to help give you that extra push can be extremely beneficial. But this could also depend on the personality type, but for someone like myself or Brownsfan I think it would be beneficial.

 

I could post that I will trade Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday. If I don't post on one of those days with my results then I would expect someone to ask me why I didn't trade or didn't post. Eventually if you are motivated enough, you won't want to be asked why you aren't hitting your goals or trading or whatever is blocking you.

 

Darthtrader - I started using a notebook for my trading. Every night I would write down the numbers I would use as support and resistance before the market established them intraday. Then I would make a to-do list with my critical goals for the week at the top, and my enabler goals at the bottom. This simple method really improved my ability to execute especially with my trading biz. I hold myself to high standards, and if I see a goal sitting there without being accomplished it takes me down a lot. But also having a goal with no path to get there hinders my ability to achieve the goal, which is why I break things down in my notebook. At the bottom of the page, I leave room for notes that I can go through at the end of the day.

[james_gsx 16]

So is there anything we can do to push forward with this?

[james_gsx 16]

Heres a template I will be using tomorrow to fill out during the day, or during breaks throughout the day. I have some data that is important to my plan and my goals. Then I have a simple table where I can track my trades and log them in on Excel after the close.

 

[Soultrader 12]

Hi guys,

 

Ive been following this thread and wanted to seek your opinions. I would like to be able to provide a template system for traders here to plug in trades, notes, etc... which can be shown on our site. (either private or public) I also want to create a system where it will graph whatever you want to input.

 

Building the system should not take too much time. The questions I have is:

 

1. What sort of information would you like to input?

2. What template format do you prefer? Would you like to see automatic charts for the info you input?

3. Any ideas on how to add credibility to the posted results? Or should this be based on user honesty?

4. Would you like to see a progress/ranking system?

 

Any other thoughts and ideas on the template system is appreciated. Thanks

[brownsfan019 17]

  Soultrader said:

Hi guys,

 

Ive been following this thread and wanted to seek your opinions. I would like to be able to provide a template system for traders here to plug in trades, notes, etc... which can be shown on our site. (either private or public) I also want to create a system where it will graph whatever you want to input.

 

Building the system should not take too much time. The questions I have is:

 

1. What sort of information would you like to input?

2. What template format do you prefer? Would you like to see automatic charts for the info you input?

3. Any ideas on how to add credibility to the posted results? Or should this be based on user honesty?

4. Would you like to see a progress/ranking system?

 

Any other thoughts and ideas on the template system is appreciated. Thanks

 

Going to think on this and then respond.

[Sparrow 10]

I suppose most of you have seen this already, Dr. Brett wrote a post about it today.