Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

Dte

Computer froze, lost $2800

Recommended Posts

A friend and I are newbies, he was trading Friday and his computer froze. He franticly called the broker, by the time they got him out he was down $2800. They said there is nothing they can do. Does he have any outs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A friend and I are newbies, he was trading Friday and his computer froze. He franticly called the broker, by the time they got him out he was down $2800. They said there is nothing they can do. Does he have any outs.

 

Nope, that's the risk we all take. Don't forget the added $20 most brokers charge to phone in an order. :(

 

Who is his broker? Most brokers keep the order serverside and if your connection or platform goes down they still execute assuming a hard stop was in place (IMO serverside with at least a worst case scenario hard stop in place is a great idea). Now if the broker has an outage or worse yet the exchange freezes, well then you MUST be prepared to hedge on another vehicle or a backup broker to offset any move against you. This should be part of any sound trading plan, how to hedge in an outage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dte, I'm interested in knowing who your friend's broker is and what market was being traded? I didn't hear about any exchange outages on Friday so I'm really surprised something like this could happen. If it was neglect on the part of your broker, take your money elsewhere.

 

Mcichocki, can you please talk a little about how to hedge in the event of an outage? Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dte, I'm interested in knowing who your friend's broker is and what market was being traded? I didn't hear about any exchange outages on Friday so I'm really surprised something like this could happen. If it was neglect on the part of your broker, take your money elsewhere.

 

Mcichocki, can you please talk a little about how to hedge in the event of an outage? Thanks.

 

What I've been taught was to hedge the YM (which is what I trade) with the ES in the event of an ecbot outage. Overall consensus seems to say for every 10 YM points the ES moves roughly 1 point so it's an easy conversion with a 1 to 1 contract ratio. Granted the YM is $5 per point and the ES is $50 per point so it is potentially more per tick being risked if the 1:10 point ratio gets out of wack.

 

BUT anywhoo...what you would do is this...

 

Should you be in a YM position and the ecbot goes down and locks you into a position you would put the opposite order on the ES at your YM stop loss so that if the YM goes against you while trapped the ES trade fades and hedges your losses on the YM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many contracts were you trading? That was a big loss. If you are a newbie you should only be trading 1 contract. Also, you should place a hard stop at the same time you place your order. NinjaTrader will automatically do that for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really it should take a few seconds once you have the broker. My guess is that this is not where the delay occurred?

 

It's worth mentally rehearsing (and knowing all the pertinent information of course) how to manually close a position.

 

Sorry for your friends loss but on the positive side there's a lot of valuable lessons there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMO I think you should ALWAYS have some kind of hard stop in, even if it's below your mental stop just as a worst case scenario should your connection or computer crash so your brokers server will have you covered. (Be sure your broker offers serverside orders)

 

And rehearse and plan what you will do should the eCBOT freeze and execute.

I've never had to so I dunno how I will handle this when it pops up but I know what I "should" do. ;)

 

This is what will separate the retail and the more professional trader, and who blew out an account or who just had another day in the market.

 

I'm with The Shadow, that was a helluva drawdown and am curious how leveraged and what trade was put on?

 

Sorry for the loss as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This can EASILY be avoided by choosing a broker that responds to your phone call in SECONDS. Your friend learned this lesson the hard way.

 

Make no mistake, you need to have a Plan B in place for the unexpected, esp. with computer outages, internet outages, etc.

 

As for any recourse, your friend is stuck. If you read the paperwork you sign when you open a futures account, you'll find the wording basically says 'you are subject to computer malfunctions - on your end AND ours - deal with it.'

 

Part of the business; HOWEVER this should NOT be a major problem.

 

I've never had an issue getting to Open ECry's 24 hour trade desk when need be. I have a poster on my dry erase board that has their 800#, local phone number and phone numbers to the main guy at OEC and my account rep. I have their personal cell phone #'s and direct business lines. I've NEVER had to use these backup options as the 24 hour trade desk is there when I need it.

 

Let this thread be a lesson to any trading futures, whether 1 contract or 100.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is also an EASY way to prevent this on YOUR end -

 

When you get filled on an order, place a protective stop immediately!! Most platforms you can set it up so that the stop automatically fires when your trade is filled. This is critical.

 

Next, you need to find a broker where your stop is held at the exchange and/or your broker's server side. In other words, if your connection goes out, your protective stop is maintained.

In summary, you and your friend need to:

 

1) Place protective stop IMMEDIATELY after entering a trade, preferably have your platform set up so that the stop fires as soon as you are filled so you don't have to do anything.

 

2) Find a broker that holds your stops @ the exchange and/or server side. Stops that are held ONLY on YOUR computer are subject too many, many risks as this thread has illustrated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hedging ES with YM or the other way around might not be possible if YM gravitates over to Globex.

 

Might have to consider ER2 on ICE although they don't match up as well.

 

Good point, is that a confirmed move?

I know I've heard of the talk about it.

Also is Globex redundant at all or does it also freeze from time to time?

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What I've been taught was to hedge the YM (which is what I trade) with the ES in the event of an ecbot outage. Overall consensus seems to say for every 10 YM points the ES moves roughly 1 point so it's an easy conversion with a 1 to 1 contract ratio. Granted the YM is $5 per point and the ES is $50 per point so it is potentially more per tick being risked if the 1:10 point ratio gets out of wack.

 

BUT anywhoo...what you would do is this...

 

Should you be in a YM position and the ecbot goes down and locks you into a position you would put the opposite order on the ES at your YM stop loss so that if the YM goes against you while trapped the ES trade fades and hedges your losses on the YM.

 

This frantic hedging could be dangerous too, since its difficult to know in some scenarios if your stop order is standing in the system or not, and what the spike will be like when it re-opens, and what kind of slippage you'll get.

 

But it's probably better than nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Good point, is that a confirmed move?

I know I've heard of the talk about it.

Also is Globex redundant at all or does it also freeze from time to time?

 

Thanks

 

So far MC, Globex is light years ahead of the ecbot and rarely freezes.

 

As for the move, it already happened - you can trade the Russell 2000 at ICE AND the CME for now. CME loses the license next year. From what I have read and heard, the CME plans to push a S&P Midcap type contract hard to replace the ER2 and keep traders there. Guess we'll see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This frantic hedging could be dangerous too, since its difficult to know in some scenarios if your stop order is standing in the system or not, and what the spike will be like when it re-opens, and what kind of slippage you'll get.

 

But it's probably better than nothing.

 

The whole point is drastic issues call for drastic measures though right?

 

So the key is the hedge should offset most if not all of of a move that went against you. Does anyone else have any other ideas or thoughts on how to hedge?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So far MC, Globex is light years ahead of the ecbot and rarely freezes.

 

As for the move, it already happened - you can trade the Russell 2000 at ICE AND the CME for now. CME loses the license next year. From what I have read and heard, the CME plans to push a S&P Midcap type contract hard to replace the ER2 and keep traders there. Guess we'll see.

 

Nice...reliability is a great asset for a network carrying billion of dollars. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So far MC, Globex is light years ahead of the ecbot and rarely freezes.

 

As for the move, it already happened - you can trade the Russell 2000 at ICE AND the CME for now. CME loses the license next year. From what I have read and heard, the CME plans to push a S&P Midcap type contract hard to replace the ER2 and keep traders there. Guess we'll see.

The move that hasn't happened yet is the YM to Globex. ER2 is a whole other situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The whole point is drastic issues call for drastic measures though right?

 

So the key is the hedge should offset most if not all of of a move that went against you. Does anyone else have any other ideas or thoughts on how to hedge?

 

MC - the BEST and EASIEST way to 'hedge' is to find a platform and broker that work in situations like this.

 

The next step is to have a backup stock/options online account where you can quickly and easily buy/sell the corresponding index ETF or ETF option.

 

Now, the time that it takes to log into your online account, find what you need and place the trade will take longer than just calling your futures broker and telling them to flatten your position if you have a broker that answers the phone quickly.

 

So my suggestion is to not waste time having a 'oh sh*t' plan and find a broker(s) that are reliable and accessible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MC - the BEST and EASIEST way to 'hedge' is to find a platform and broker that work in situations like this.

 

The next step is to have a backup stock/options online account where you can quickly and easily buy/sell the corresponding index ETF or ETF option.

 

Now, the time that it takes to log into your online account, find what you need and place the trade will take longer than just calling your futures broker and telling them to flatten your position if you have a broker that answers the phone quickly.

 

So my suggestion is to not waste time having a 'oh sh*t' plan and find a broker(s) that are reliable and accessible.

 

Well if you're in a YM position and the eCBOT freezes your can call your broker all day, they can't do anything either correct? Tradestation will answer the phone very fast, but if the exchange is down how could they flatten me?

 

And if you have limited funds and can't open a few spare offshore accounts there has to be a backup or "oh $hit" plan. To not have any hedging plan when trading leveraged is a blowout waiting to happen. And to hedge on an ETF isn't that bad an idea IF you have enough in your spare account to throw at it to effectively hedge the leveraged position. I don't have enough for a 2nd account at this point so I'll stick to my disaster plan till I can afford to get a backup account (I do intend to do this ASAP).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well if you're in a YM position and the eCBOT freezes your can call your broker all day, they can't do anything either correct? Tradestation will answer the phone very fast, but if the exchange is down how could they flatten me?

 

And if you have limited funds and can't open a few spare offshore accounts there has to be a backup or "oh $hit" plan. To not have any hedging plan when trading leveraged is a blowout waiting to happen. And to hedge on an ETF isn't that bad an idea IF you have enough in your spare account to throw at it to effectively hedge the leveraged position. I don't have enough for a 2nd account at this point so I'll stick to my disaster plan till I can afford to get a backup account (I do intend to do this ASAP).

 

MC - the OP's initial post was about HIS PERSONAL computer freezing, not the exchange. The exchange freezing is a different story.

 

Regardless, if you are too leveraged and can't afford a 2nd account backup, there's no hedging or oh sh*t options available at all. In order to hedge a position you need a 2nd account with funds sitting there waiting.

 

That's it. No way to hedge w/o more money. I'm not sure what you plan to have as your backup if no additional funds are available for this purpose. To hedge takes money and quite a bit of it if hedging with an ETF at a share-to-contract ratio.

 

If you are that worried about the leverage you are using, I would suggest scaling back the leverage and/or wait until your trading account is larger. You have a valid concern, but that is a real risk when trading a small account and/or trading with high leverage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MC - the OP's initial post was about HIS PERSONAL computer freezing, not the exchange. The exchange freezing is a different story.

 

Regardless, if you are too leveraged and can't afford a 2nd account backup, there's no hedging or oh sh*t options available at all. In order to hedge a position you need a 2nd account with funds sitting there waiting.

 

That's it. No way to hedge w/o more money. I'm not sure what you plan to have as your backup if no additional funds are available for this purpose. To hedge takes money and quite a bit of it if hedging with an ETF at a share-to-contract ratio.

 

If you are that worried about the leverage you are using, I would suggest scaling back the leverage and/or wait until your trading account is larger. You have a valid concern, but that is a real risk when trading a small account and/or trading with high leverage.

 

I have enough in my Tradestation account should the eCBOT freeze that I can grab 1 ES contract to offset each 1 YM contract. ES will work ok since they are on a different exchange and move in decent harmony to the YM.

 

I know the OP was saying his computer froze. My point was so will the exchanges sometimes and there has to be a disaster plan otherwise you can go a$$ up real quick. If it's your computer call your broker ASAP and get flat.

If it's the exchange you MUST have a hedge or risk a blowout.

 

I'm not picking a fight, I respect your knowledge but this thread was a good chance for me to bring up hedging regardless of what froze up. Cause if YOU freeze up when there is an issue it's curtains for ya. :o

 

Ya dig? I'll see you in chat in a lil bit...thanks for the input. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MC - the BEST and EASIEST way to 'hedge' is to find a platform and broker that work in situations like this.

 

The next step is to have a backup stock/options online account where you can quickly and easily buy/sell the corresponding index ETF or ETF option.

 

Now, the time that it takes to log into your online account, find what you need and place the trade will take longer than just calling your futures broker and telling them to flatten your position if you have a broker that answers the phone quickly.

 

So my suggestion is to not waste time having a 'oh sh*t' plan and find a broker(s) that are reliable and accessible.

Do you trade futures at all?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have enough in my Tradestation account should the eCBOT freeze that I can grab 1 ES contract to offset each 1 YM contract. ES will work ok since they are on a different exchange and move in decent harmony to the YM.

 

I know the OP was saying his computer froze. My point was so will the exchanges sometimes and there has to be a disaster plan otherwise you can go a$$ up real quick. If it's your computer call your broker ASAP and get flat.

If it's the exchange you MUST have a hedge or risk a blowout.

 

I'm not picking a fight, I respect your knowledge but this thread was a good chance for me to bring up hedging regardless of what froze up. Cause if YOU freeze up when there is an issue it's curtains for ya. :o

 

Ya dig? I'll see you in chat in a lil bit...thanks for the input. :)

 

MC - I gotcha now. Using the ES to offset is fine, until the YM is on Globex. Then it's all the same.

 

So the plan will work assuming you still have margin in your account available to trade the ES. Keep in mind, if you are in a YM position your margin will be used there so you will need additional margin to trade the ES. With margins at $500 though, should not be a big issue.

 

I just wanted to make sure you understood what was involved with hedging if using the actual ETF and/or options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Are you asking me Sun?

 

If so, feel free to stop in the TL chat room to see for yourself.

No thanks done the trading room too many times and look at it just another distraction. Fine for others I know.

 

My question was related to your above answer to get a better broker when the discussion centered on ecbot going down. Globex has not been immune to such problems either although not to the same extent as ecbot.

 

An equity account to use ETF's would be the same situation as having additional funds in a futures account to hedge YM/ES.

 

Whatever the backup plan, one is needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • My wife Robin just wanted some groceries.   Simple enough.   She parked the car for fifteen minutes, and returned to find a huge scratch on the side.   Someone keyed her car.   To be clear, this isn’t just any car.   It’s a Cybertruck—Elon Musk's stainless-steel spaceship on wheels. She bought it back in 2021, before Musk became everyone's favorite villain or savior.   Someone saw it parked in a grocery lot and felt compelled to carve their hatred directly into the metal.   That's what happens when you stand out.   Nobody keys a beige minivan.   When you're polarizing, you're impossible to ignore. But the irony is: the more attention something has, the harder it is to find the truth about it.   What’s Elon Musk really thinking? What are his plans? What will happen with DOGE? Is he deserving of all of this adoration and hate? Hard to say.   Ideas work the same way.   Take tariffs, for example.   Tariffs have become the Cybertrucks of economic policy. People either love them or hate them. Even if they don’t understand what they are and how they work. (Most don’t.)   That’s why, in my latest podcast (link below), I wanted to explore the “in-between” truth about tariffs.   And like Cybertrucks, I guess my thoughts on tariffs are polarizing.   Greg Gutfield mentioned me on Fox News. Harvard professors hate me now. (I wonder if they also key Cybertrucks?)   But before I show you what I think about tariffs… I have to mention something.   We’re Headed to Austin, Texas This weekend, my team and I are headed to Austin. By now, you should probably know why.   Yes, SXSW is happening. But my team and I are doing something I think is even better.   We’re putting on a FREE event on “Tech’s Turning Point.”   AI, quantum, biotech, crypto, and more—it’s all on the table.   Just now, we posted a special webpage with the agenda.   Click here to check it out and add it to your calendar.   The Truth About Tariffs People love to panic about tariffs causing inflation.   They wave around the ghost of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff from the Great Depression like it’s Exhibit A proving tariffs equal economic collapse.   But let me pop this myth:   Tariffs don’t cause inflation. And no, I'm not crazy (despite what angry professors from Harvard or Stanford might tweet at me).   Here's the deal.   Inflation isn’t when just a couple of things become pricier. It’s when your entire shopping basket—eggs, shirts, Netflix subscriptions, bananas, everything—starts costing more because your money’s worth less.   Inflation means your dollars aren’t stretching as far as they used to.   Take the 1800s.   For nearly a century, 97% of America’s revenue came from tariffs. Income tax? Didn’t exist. And guess what inflation was? Basically zero. Maybe 1% a year.   The economy was booming, and tariffs funded nearly everything. So, why do people suddenly think tariffs cause inflation today?   Tariffs are taxes on imports, yes, but prices are set by supply and demand—not tariffs.   Let me give you a simple example.   Imagine fancy potato chips from Canada cost $10, and a 20% tariff pushes that to $12. Everyone panics—prices rose! Inflation!   Nope.   If I only have $100 to spend and the price of my favorite chips goes up, I either stop buying chips or I buy, say, fewer newspapers.   If everyone stops buying newspapers because they’re overspending on chips, newspapers lower their prices or go out of business.   Overall spending stays the same, and inflation doesn’t budge.   Three quick scenarios:   We buy pricier chips, but fewer other things: Inflation unchanged. Manufacturers shift to the U.S. to avoid tariffs: Inflation unchanged (and more jobs here). We stop buying fancy chips: Prices drop again. Inflation? Still unchanged. The only thing that actually causes inflation is printing money.   Between 2020 and 2022 alone, 40% of all money ever created in history appeared overnight.   That’s why inflation shot up afterward—not because of tariffs.   Back to tariffs today.   Still No Inflation Unlike the infamous Smoot-Hawley blanket tariff (imagine Oprah handing out tariffs: "You get a tariff, and you get a tariff!"), today's tariffs are strategic.   Trump slapped tariffs on chips from Taiwan because we shouldn’t rely on a single foreign supplier for vital tech components—especially if that supplier might get invaded.   Now Taiwan Semiconductor is investing $100 billion in American manufacturing.   Strategic win, no inflation.   Then there’s Canada and Mexico—our friendly neighbors with weirdly huge tariffs on things like milk and butter (299% tariff on butter—really, Canada?).   Trump’s not blanketing everything with tariffs; he’s pressuring trade partners to lower theirs.   If they do, everybody wins. If they don’t, well, then we have a strategic trade chess game—but still no inflation.   In short, tariffs are about strategy, security, and fairness—not inflation.   Yes, blanket tariffs from the Great Depression era were dumb. Obviously. Today's targeted tariffs? Smart.   Listen to the whole podcast to hear why I think this.   And by the way, if you see a Cybertruck, don’t key it. Robin doesn’t care about your politics; she just likes her weird truck.   Maybe read a good book, relax, and leave cars alone.   (And yes, nobody keys Volkswagens, even though they were basically created by Hitler. Strange world we live in.) Source: https://altucherconfidential.com/posts/the-truth-about-tariffs-busting-the-inflation-myth    Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/       
    • No, not if you are comparing apples to apples. What we call “poor” is obviously a pretty high bar but if you’re talking about like a total homeless shambling skexie in like San Fran then, no. The U.S.A. in not particularly kind to you. It is not an abuse so much as it is a sad relatively minor consequence of our optimism and industriousness.   What you consider rich changes with circumstances obviously. If you are genuinely poor in the U.S.A., you experience a quirky hodgepodge of unhelpful and/or abstract extreme lavishnesses while also being alienated from your social support network. It’s about the same as being a refugee. For a fraction of the ‘kindness’ available to you in non bio-available form, you could have simply stayed closer to your people and been MUCH better off.   It’s just a quirk of how we run the place and our values; we are more worried about interfering with people’s liberty and natural inclination to do for themselves than we are about no bums left behind. It is a slightly hurtful position and we know it; we are just scared to death of socialism cancer and we’re willing to put our money where our mouth is.   So, if you’re a bum; you got 5G, the ER will spend like $1,000,000 on you over a hangnail but then kick you out as soon as you’re “stabilized”, the logistics are surpremely efficient, you have total unchecked freedom of speech, real-estate, motels, and jobs are all natural healthy markets in perfect competition, you got compulsory three ‘R’’s, your military owns the sky, sea, space, night, information-space, and has the best hairdos, you can fill out paper and get all the stuff up to and including a Ph.D. Pretty much everything a very generous, eager, flawless go-getter with five minutes to spare would think you might need.   It’s worse. Our whole society is competitive and we do NOT value or make any kumbaya exception. The last kumbaya types we had werr the Shakers and they literally went extinct. Pueblo peoples are still around but they kind of don’t count since they were here before us. So basically, if you’re poor in the U.S.A., you are automatically a loser and a deadbeat too. You will be treated as such by anybody not specifically either paid to deal with you or shysters selling bejesus, Amway, and drugs. Plus, it ain’t safe out there. Not everybody uses muhfreedoms to lift their truck, people be thugging and bums are very vulnerable here. The history of a large mobile workforce means nobody has a village to go home to. Source: https://askdaddy.quora.com/Are-the-poor-people-in-the-United-States-the-richest-poor-people-in-the-world-6   Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/ 
    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.