Pivot Point Discussion

[brownsfan019 17]

I realize there's a few threads floating on TL about pivot points, but thought we could discuss a few here in a more recent look.

 

Here's my consideration of pivots and I wanted some feedback. First, I should preface by saying that my intention at this time is to consider them for exit purposes and only exits at this time. As I've mentioned many times, exits continue to be my weakness and for whatever reason, I've been spending some time at mypivots.com watching these levels.

 

So in terms of exiting a trade, I am looking at using the pivot levels as possible profit target(s) vs. a fixed target, trailer, etc. My use of late has been to enter trades as I normally do and then reference the nearest pivot point and use the numbers from http://www.mypivots.com/dn/?symbol=41 I believe that site is recommended here and I think that's where I learned about it.

 

The idea at this point is to watch as price moves towards a pivot after a trade in my direction and watch price closely as it nears the pivot level. When price approaches the pivot level, look for a reason to exit if the level is holding well.

 

That's about it.

 

I'll try to get some examples up later if there's time, but I wanted to see what kind of feedback I could get from traders using the pivots. I mainly trade the ES.

 

Some questions if I may:

 

Have you found over time that these levels are respected on the ES?

 

How about other markets?

 

Is the mypivots site a good reference? Are the 'classic' numbers the best to use?

[Soultrader 12]

I have found pivots to work in the YM (not sure about the ES) but absolutely useless in the Nikkei.

 

The only reason why it works is because floor traders still use them and electronic traders have picked it up as a handy tool to determine S&R. Other than that, it makes absolutely no sense to determine S&R by a simple mathematical equation.

 

For fixed targets, I use other significant levels such as high/low, high volume node, value high/low, etc...

[brownsfan019 17]

I have found pivots to work in the YM (not sure about the ES) but absolutely useless in the Nikkei.

 

The only reason why it works is because floor traders still use them and electronic traders have picked it up as a handy tool to determine S&R. Other than that, it makes absolutely no sense to determine S&R by a simple mathematical equation.

 

For fixed targets, I use other significant levels such as high/low, high volume node, value high/low, etc...

 

Maybe the better question James is - what are your preferred methods for exiting a trade?

[MC 10]

I'll take it one step further, James where do I send the check so you can exit my trades for me.

[Soultrader 12]

Maybe the better question James is - what are your preferred methods for exiting a trade?

 

This is probably going to be a vague answer but my exits are done off tape.

 

First I have a target point in mind where I look to scale out half. This is automatic. Previous day high/low, POC, VAH, VAL are all good target points. However, with futures a rotation puts the odds in your favor significantly compared to momentum based breakout strategies. (yes I have ben burnt many times playing breakouts) Therefore, I have a fixed target based on the tendency for price to move by a certain amount before profit taking or retracements. This is different across all markets. For example, I expect the Nikkei to move by at least 4-5 ticks upon entry. Hence, this is my first target point where I scale out half automatically.

 

If price can not meet this target and meets resistance off the tape I will exit immediately. Second half is discretionary based on tape. If price meets resistance but I am seeing buying interest step right back in on the bid, I will hold my second half. If buying interest is not sufficient to take out the ask, (sellers keep stepping on the ask) I will exit right as the bid gets thin. I want to make sure to be able to exit as the bid instead of waiting for the bid to become the ask. This is because the tick size on the big Nikkei is big. Now, this observation and technique is only valid when bid/ask is thick and tick value is big. Might be a good way to determine selling and buying pressure on the S&P but not the mini Dow.

 

The trick is to understand how to identify support and resistance levels. What are significant levels? I think new traders struggle to understand this basic analysis method. These sort of bid/ask action doesnt take place at random levels but key levels. What makes traders attracted to these levels? Why are these levels so important? etc...

[brownsfan019 17]

James,

Regarding the market profile numbers - poc, etc - is there a good website or two that you recommend that has this info like mypivots does with pivots?

[Blu-Ray 10]

James,

Regarding the market profile numbers - poc, etc - is there a good website or two that you recommend that has this info like mypivots does with pivots?

 

I'll jump in with the answer here.

 

try this : http://www.mypivots.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1404&whichpage=17

 

Hope this helps

 

Blu-Ray

[brownsfan019 17]

I'll jump in with the answer here.

 

try this : http://www.mypivots.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1404&whichpage=17

 

Hope this helps

 

Blu-Ray

 

Thanks Blu!

 

Question - is there a way for me to calculate these numbers myself to verify and/or have them in case this person doesn't post them on the forum? I don't like relying 100% on a forum for the numbers.

 

Also - are there other site(s) that you know of that have this listed as well for backup?

 

Thanks.

[Blu-Ray 10]

Thanks Blu!

 

Question - is there a way for me to calculate these numbers myself to verify and/or have them in case this person doesn't post them on the forum? I don't like relying 100% on a forum for the numbers.

 

Also - are there other site(s) that you know of that have this listed as well for backup?

 

Thanks.

 

I think the person who posts in the forum is the owner who also posts the pivot no's. From my experience, it always up to date.

 

However, I also downloaded this from post 19 by Ryker, its MP for Excel, but you have to put in the 30 min data, unless your platform can do it.

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/6/mp-on-excel-1306-2.html

 

As for any other sites, I don't use any other, unless someone else can help out there.

 

 

Hope this helps

 

Blu-Ray

[Soultrader 12]

Thanks Blu!

 

Question - is there a way for me to calculate these numbers myself to verify and/or have them in case this person doesn't post them on the forum? I don't like relying 100% on a forum for the numbers.

 

Also - are there other site(s) that you know of that have this listed as well for backup?

 

Thanks.

 

I dont have access to a market profile charting package with the prop desk so I draw them manually on excel and calculate the volume at price. Then I just take the most volume price level and reorder them in order to get 70% of volume, hence value area. I do this twice a day, one after the morning session and one after the afternoon.

 

I do not recommend this procedure as it is time consuming so best to pay for a third party market profile vendor. I have thoroughly searched the net for any value area numbers available but the only site that has it is the link provided by Blu. Im sure there is a way to program your excel and connect it with your current data feed vendor in order to get these values.

[Blu-Ray 10]

James

 

Give that link a try for Excel, it works a treat.

 

[Nick1984 10]

I dont have access to a market profile charting package with the prop desk so I draw them manually on excel and calculate the volume at price. Then I just take the most volume price level and reorder them in order to get 70% of volume, hence value area. I do this twice a day, one after the morning session and one after the afternoon.

 

I do not recommend this procedure as it is time consuming so best to pay for a third party market profile vendor. I have thoroughly searched the net for any value area numbers available but the only site that has it is the link provided by Blu. Im sure there is a way to program your excel and connect it with your current data feed vendor in order to get these values.

 

 

Thats what I used to do for getting a very basic MP system going using EOD data so I could set up a MP for the day's trading. I'd use the Time and Sales and break it up into 1/2 hour blocks and then log the info into excel and then then make up my own MP. This was for stocks btw not futures. MP works well on stocks as well as futures in my experience. Very time consuming.

 

Back to a key point in the original theme of this post was why do we use pivots? I see pivots as sticky points in the market where price usually tends to hold up and see whether it breaks or not. I don't try to understand why price starts to stall around these areas but all I care is that it does. I guess it stalls cause every Tom, Dick, and Harry knows about pivots and uses them so they become a sort of self fulfilling prophecy type thing where price stalls cause everyone expects it to stall there!

[Soultrader 12]

James

 

Give that link a try for Excel, it works a treat.

 

 

Is there a way for a data feed to plot the letters automatically or is this a manual process?

 

Also, how would you program excel to calculate the actual value area when volume is not included in the spreadsheet? I should of participated closer in the MP for Excel thread. I used to have a MP charting package so didnt think it would be necessary but without one its been quite a pain in the ass.

[Blu-Ray 10]

Is there a way for a data feed to plot the letters automatically or is this a manual process?

 

Also, how would you program excel to calculate the actual value area when volume is not included in the spreadsheet? I should of participated closer in the MP for Excel thread. I used to have a MP charting package so didnt think it would be necessary but without one its been quite a pain in the ass.

 

On the first page of the Excel package, displays this page below

 

[Nick1984 10]

Hey Blu, thats quite a handy spreadsheet! Much nicer than my old crappy ones I used to make. Did you write that up yourself or did you find that somewhere?

[Soultrader 12]

Oh wow... this is sweet. Do you know if the last price column is a necessity? Also, I am assuming a composite profile is not possible?

[Blu-Ray 10]

Oh wow... this is sweet. Do you know if the last price column is a necessity? Also, I am assuming a composite profile is not possible?

 

I think the last price is only neccesary for the close at the end of the day, luckily I can export my data via Tradestation straight into excel so I don't have to bother typing it in.

 

I don't think it does a composite profile, but further on in that MP thread there were some other versions, so it might be worth taking a look or we could ask the question on that thread and someone might come up with one.

 

Cheers

 

Blu-Ray

[brownsfan019 17]

Blu - do you use regular trade hours or 24 hour data to plug into the Excel sheet?

 

Thanks

[Blu-Ray 10]

Blu - do you use regular trade hours or 24 hour data to plug into the Excel sheet?

 

Thanks

 

I use regular trade hours, I believe thats what most do, as that is where the high volume is.

 

As in, if you study the market profile for the 24 hours period, price might hardly move in the overnight session, but the profile will keep printing out prints for those periods, giving a false impression that there's high volume around that price.

 

Hope this helps

 

Blu-Ray

[dalby 10]

exactly. that is why volume profiles work fine with 24 hr charts.

 

obviously time based profiles not so much

[strtedat22 10]

This is probably going to be a vague answer but my exits are done off tape

-soultrader

 

you check tape at key levels like the pivot points

[RAVIN 10]

Guys, this is probably the 3rd time that I am trying to get some form of clarification on Market Profile and Mark Fisher POC and value ranges. So much has been written about it namely that it mirrors the value areas generated by MP,

Now only Blu-Ray provided some info. perhaps other knowledgeable folks could shed further light.

[darthtrader 10]

I've read some of the Logical Trader. I'm not really sure how his pivot ranges would mirror MP value areas outside of randomness since I don't believe he is useing volume in their calculations. In balancing market I'm sure they would be pretty close but I imagine in a trend they could get quite far apart. I'm not sure why it really matters though, its not hard to get MP value areas at this point. I do think there has to be some parts of Fishers ideas that would fit in with MP trading though.

[Guest Mister Ticks]

Hello all - I am new to trading and traders laboratory so I hope I don't infuriate anyone with this post!

 

Does anyone know of a good website that is a good source for quick pivot point info? By that I mean, a site that you can type in a symbol and get the high, low and close quickly on the page?

 

I have tradestation but I have to pull up each chart to look at previous price info. Also, I looked at yahoo finance, reuters etc. but they're not geared up for a quick price info scan on previous trading as they too bring up chart info.

 

I hope this question makes sense and I've explained myself pretty well. This is my first post on Traders Laboratory so hopefully I haven't ticked anyone off with a "newb" question.

 

 

Thanks - Gavin.

[Trvlwanderer 10]

Hello all - I am new to trading and traders laboratory so I hope I don't infuriate anyone with this post!

 

Does anyone know of a good website that is a good source for quick pivot point info? By that I mean, a site that you can type in a symbol and get the high, low and close quickly on the page?

 

I have tradestation but I have to pull up each chart to look at previous price info. Also, I looked at yahoo finance, reuters etc. but they're not geared up for a quick price info scan on previous trading as they too bring up chart info.

 

I hope this question makes sense and I've explained myself pretty well. This is my first post on Traders Laboratory so hopefully I haven't ticked anyone off with a "newb" question.

 

 

Thanks - Gavin.

 

Worth it's weight in gold.

 

http://www.mindovermarket.com/mindovermarkets/pivot.asp?SYMBOL