For those that are full time now-how'd you do it?

[Reaver 10]

For those that took the plunge and went full time....how did you do it?

 

Did you have money saved up, did you have any bills to worry about, what made you decide it was time to quit the full time job? Were you already independently wealthy or did you just take a big chance and grit your teeth?

 

Just trying to see if there are any suggestions from anyone who's been down the road as to what I should start working towards. Experience of course is the best teacher, but any information I can glean will help shorten the learning curve.....

 

Currently I work full time in the mortgage industry, making decent money, nothing crazy. I work 8 hrs a day, come home and spend another hour or so looking at charts for EOD data trades....then I devote the next 3-4 hours studying and studying and studying some more. Oh yeah, and spending time with my wife. LOL

 

Really ready to start working towards devoting full efforts to trading, and I am willing to take the long road to get there...but I would like any advice on making that first step.

 

THANKS.

 

 

 

Thanks in advance for any info.

[Reaver 10]

Also, if it will help, I can expound on any info about myself necessary. I think this would not only help me, but maybe there are a few others out there wondering the same thing and this could help them get set up too. Imagine the post count at TL if everyone was a full time trader! LOL

[TinGull 10]

For me, I took it the way that people probably shouldn't. HA! It wasn't easy at all. I was working a job where they brainwash people into staying aboard and I didn't go along with anything they had to say. I had to get out. They sent me to a seminar for sales training where there was a sales pitch for an investment program. A bunch of my friends and I signed up and I was the only one that took it seriously. Then, last summer I had the opportunity to leave the job and concentrate on trading.

 

Fortunately my girlfriend KNEW that I could do it, and knew it would just take time. The time part was the only unknown. How long would it take? So, we started looking at it from the perspective of "traditional" startups and how long it takes them to become profitable. So, I started figuring with putting in the time needed to startup say like a small pastry shop or something (LOTS of hours and hard hard work) that it might take anywhere from 12-24 months for me to become profitable.

 

So, here I am getting close to the 12th month since I went solo, 10th month day trading futures, and its been a long battle. THANKFULLY my girlfriend is a finance manager and has a HUGE budget at her job to finagle so getting our finances in order during the "break-in" period was easy as pie. She didn't mind working while I was at home losing money. And now that I've crossed the most major plateau coming into the year anniversary of going it alone, I really feel that I'm there on the path to consistency. Am I banking HUGE amounts of cash? For my needs, absolutely. For most other traders? I make pocket change. But that's not what I'm really in it for. Trading for me is a means to live without the limitations of a job. As long as I can consistently make what I was making at my other gig then life is grand. I mean...we grow lots of our own food, pay next to nothing in utilities for our home because we're SUPER "earth aware" in our usage, have just 1 car (Scion xA which gets 32mpg in the city, 36 on the highway easily)...so with expenses as little as ours and life as great as it already is...trading then becomes something easier on the mind.

 

Anyways, thats my ramblin'

[Soultrader 12]

Hi Reaver,

 

My all time favorite word is perseverance. I was able to go full-time by failing multiple times. It did take me a little over 2 years and 10 hour days studying charts, reading books, trading, staring at tape, etc... I currently spend about 12 hours a day engaged with the markets. Usually do my morning research about 90 minutes before the market opens and another 5 hours after the market closes.

 

I busted out 2 accounts, found myself in debt, worked 26 days a month to pay off my debt and gain some capital, etc.. simply because I refused to quit. I was willing to do anything I can to become successful at it. The entire period of the learning phase I treated trading as if my life depended on it. (it actually did) So my advice for you is determination, patience, passion, and the motivation. You cant be stubborn also. Eliminate what doesnt work and craft what works. Eventually you will find your own technique, style, and methodology. Become a master at it. To a point that your style should be branded. You also need to be well capitalized as well.

[TinGull 10]

OH yes, being well capitalized helps a TON on the mental front. Experienced traders can bring a 5k account up to 20k in a matter of weeks because they have broken through the mental barriers that keep a newbie from success. I feel fortunate that after a year Im still on my first small account and now starting to see some rise to that equity curve.

[Nick1984 10]

I'm not full time yet but this might help anyhow. Im only 22 so still a youg'un and still at University (albeight in my last semester!). The way I see myself becoming full time is by bucking the trend of most graduates and not going for a regular full time job.

 

I've worked full time while studying and the experience I've had working under someone else has left me kind of jaded so to make money what did I do? I started my own business! Now I work under my own steam, when I want, and with whomever I want while I study. I haven't been able to sit down and trade since this semester began so the next 11 weeks or so will be no trading at all which sucks but during my holidays I traded furiously every night (trading the YM takes place during my night time) keeping a journal (Thanks Brown ) and learning as much as possible.

 

Once I graduate I'll continue working under my own business and diverting excess funds into my trading account. I will end up trading 3 days a week during my night time and then sleeping until around 1-2pm before waking up and running my business from home. Eventually once I work out all the kinks in my system and can successfully make 20 YM points a day per contract on a consistent basis then I'll spend more and more time trading until eventually it becomes full time.

 

It'll be pretty hard for a long time but it's a price worth paying I think. If I can get a job in a prop trading firm I'd do that though!

[waveslider 10]

My advice to a newbie would be to spend the money on a trading education rather than make your own mistakes.

 

To be able to act with confidence you need to know that what you are doing works, and be able to do it consistently. The markets are always changing, but if you use the same approach consistently, and the approach works most of the time, you will profit.

 

To put it in perspective, I have been trading 8 years. Self employed for 4 now. Trading futures for about 2. Still break even on futures. The only thing I am profitable on consistently is my mechanical systems which trade ETFs.

 

I KNOW why I am not profitable on futures. It's because I lack discipline and I don't trade consistently. I have a mechanical system designed for trading the eminis and it works consistently. It does way better than me.

 

My advice - for the majority of people out there - don't fool yourself into thinking you can overcome the FEAR-GREED impulses driving the market.

 

Until you can come upon something that works consistently, and - most importantly - you have lots and lots of data to prove the idea works, AND you are able to execute the idea consistently, you will not be profitable.

 

There are very very few individuals who are able to act (like machines) without emotion when it comes to money. If you are starting out and have worked hard for that money, you WILL feel emotional about trading.

 

read this article, I can tell you it will describe the path of 99% of traders exactly: http://www.trading-naked.com/library/Chap2.pdf

 

So, bottom line, invest in your education so you can act with confidence. Don't worry if it cost a lot of money. You would have lost that money on you r own making mistakes!

[Reaver 10]

Thanks for the info. I definitely appreciate it. I agree, it is pretty much worth paying any price as far as time and effort go to have the freedom of working for yourself and trading for a living. Thanks for the ideas. I will definitely use them.

[brownsfan019 17]

Nate,

For me, it required a leap of faith. I was a stockbroker making good money each month and when I told some people that I was resigning to trade, I can't explain all the variety of things I was told... I had built a strong book of business and was just going to walk away. It's kind of like putting in your time trading, getting successful and then leave.

 

But for me, it was something that I wanted/had to do. I wanted out of corp. America and wanted to own my own biz. I've always loved the markets so being a private trader was a logical step.

 

And of course, this has/is a tough biz to crack into. It took me longer than I thought. I mean, how hard could this be, right?

 

I think you'll read 2 schools of thought on this topic:

1) If you are going to get wet, you mind as well jump into the deep end and see if you can swim.

2) Put your tiny toe in the water and see if it hurts. If so, get out!

 

My belief is that if you are ready (or as ready as you think you will ever be), you jump and don't look back. And I mean jump. You either treat this is a full-time biz or treat it as a part-time hobby. NOTHING will replace 'face time' - time in front of the computer and charts in REAL TIME. It's way to easy to look at past charts and just see all the $$$ you would have made.

 

Now, I am not saying you take your life savings and place some large trades day one. I am saying that a full-time biz requires work before 9am, during RTH, and after 4pm. It means you live and breathe your biz. It means you pay no attention to the naysayers out there. It means you give it your all and don't look back.

 

To me, the absolute worst thing a person can do is always wonder 'what if....' Life is way to short to be wondering what if.

[waveslider 10]

One other tip, keep your account small and let it blow out if you are failing. If it blows, then take some time to retreat and re-organize. To me this is like touching the fire, knowing where it is. If you are successful, gradually add another contract.

The worst thing you can do is say "I need $5000 a month to live so.. I'll trade 5 contracts" when you are starting out. Expect to at best break even for a year at minimum.

You need to let your account tell you if you are doing well. You can convince yourself of anything, and most people massively overestimate their potential.

[MrPaul 10]

...I am saying that a full-time biz requires work before 9am, during RTH, and after 4pm. It means you live and breathe your biz. It means you pay no attention to the naysayers out there. It means you give it your all and don't look back...

 

...My all time favorite word is perseverance. I was able to go full-time by failing multiple times. It did take me a little over 2 years and 10 hour days studying charts, reading books, trading, staring at tape, etc... I currently spend about 12 hours a day engaged with the markets. Usually do my morning research about 90 minutes before the market opens and another 5 hours after the market closes...

 

Anyone considering the trading business as a career choice should read those two paragraphs slowly and carefully. These are wise words indeed...

[Reaver 10]

Very wise words. Thank you very much for the insight and advice.

[heretodaygone... 10]

Hi Reaver,

 

My all time favorite word is perseverance.... I currently spend about 12 hours a day engaged with the markets.

.. SIMPLY BECAUSE I REFUSED TO QUIT. I was willing to do anything I can to become successful at it. So my advice for you is determination, patience, passion, and the motivation.

 

awesome words soultrader....never give up on yourself, never give up on your dreams!

[GCB 10]

Hi Reaver,

 

I currently spend about 12 hours a day engaged with the markets. Usually do my morning research about 90 minutes before the market opens and another 5 hours after the market closes.

 

 

James,

 

I'm wondering do you feel you need to do this to have specific insights for the next day, or do you do this for general study to see if you can improve in any way possible?

 

I currently spend a lot of time studying, and I enjoy doing it. It's part of the pursuit. But I don't feel like I need to study charts for 5 hours in order to be specifically prepared for the next trading day. If I was day trading stocks it might be different, which is one reason I don't day trade stocks.

 

I asked my mentor--a successful, self-sufficient YM trader--how he prepared for the trading day. He asked me, "Do you want to know the truth?" I said yes. He said, "I get up, pet the cat, have a bowl of cereal, check out the news, and turn on my trading platform and that's it."

 

Now, I know he does evening research because he sends out a newsletter. So his reply might be a little misleading. But the point is with technical trading of futures, if your method is in place, not much review is necessary. For example, Hubert Senters said he did very little preparation for the trading day. "I'm a tape reader," he said. "I do what the tape tells me. Most other information is not useful to me." Or something to that effect.

[OAC 10]

First, most people have misconception of trading.

How do you earn an advance degree ?

How do you become a professional athlete ?

Becoming a full-time trader is no different:

YOU WORK LONG PERIOD OF TIME WITHOUT PAY

[Reaver 10]

First, most people have misconception of trading.

How do you earn an advance degree ?

How do you become a professional athlete ?

Becoming a full-time trader is no different:

YOU WORK LONG PERIOD OF TIME WITHOUT PAY

 

I like that alot. As much as the concept sucks, it is very true and many don't understand it. They expect to be making big money right out of the gates.

[TinGull 10]

Nate, people with a very simple approach to the market who have been honing that approach for a long time can afford to not spend time studying their charts and all that. I personally used to spend sometimes 18 hours a day studying the markets. Do I now? No, I don't. I spend from 8am until 3:30ish doing market stuff. Other than that, I don't want to be immersed in it. Life's all about finding a balance and spending too much time on one thing puts it out of balance.

 

While trading markets that are out of balance is fun to do, living a life that is out of balance is not fun at all.

[Soultrader 12]

James,

 

I'm wondering do you feel you need to do this to have specific insights for the next day, or do you do this for general study to see if you can improve in any way possible?

 

I currently spend a lot of time studying, and I enjoy doing it. It's part of the pursuit. But I don't feel like I need to study charts for 5 hours in order to be specifically prepared for the next trading day. If I was day trading stocks it might be different, which is one reason I don't day trade stocks.

 

I asked my mentor--a successful, self-sufficient YM trader--how he prepared for the trading day. He asked me, "Do you want to know the truth?" I said yes. He said, "I get up, pet the cat, have a bowl of cereal, check out the news, and turn on my trading platform and that's it."

 

Now, I know he does evening research because he sends out a newsletter. So his reply might be a little misleading. But the point is with technical trading of futures, if your method is in place, not much review is necessary. For example, Hubert Senters said he did very little preparation for the trading day. "I'm a tape reader," he said. "I do what the tape tells me. Most other information is not useful to me." Or something to that effect.

 

The biggest difference between a private and insitutional trader is that you simply can not call it a day after hitting your daily goal. Its serious work and you constantly have to be engaged in the markets regardless of market condition. You could be the worst trader in a choppy market. But in insititutional trading, you are required to stay at your desk and look for opportunities. This has forced me to expand my trading to make it adaptable to any market condition regardless of whether I like it or not. Bottom line is... get the work done every minute the market stays open. The morning 90 minutes I use to go over charts, read the entire newspaper, and watch SGX open up. Lunch session is used to take notes of my trades and write up a report on my own analysis and bias towards the afternoon session. Perhaps even create a strategy that I can use for the afternoon based on morning action. The work after the close is used to reflect back on the day, do my regular TA and MP analysis for tomorrow, see what areas I can further improve, see opportunities I missed and how I can focus on capturing them, reading the afternoon papers, watching Forex, watching post market SGX action, typing up my daily trading insights and journal, etc... Its become a habit so not as intense as it used to be but all the hours put in keeps me sharp and up close and personal with the market. I have need urge to want to be in complete sync with the market. This means understanding what the market is telling me each day, finding clues, etc... Discretionary trading must be supplemented with strategies. Intuition can take you far only if you have distinct strategies for each market conditition. So are you going to approach the markets the same tomorrow as you did today? I personally do not.

 

I understand Hubert just wakes up and trade. But he is primarily a scalper reading order flow. (which imo is amazing if consistent) I prefer to trade 1-4 times a day and try to capture nice intraday swings. My 2 cents

 

Note:　Its not 5 hours straight work. Im taking cig breaks in between, watching bloomberg, chatting with other traders, eating, etc....

[BlowFish 10]

Tin,

 

That's a good point. Its the education that takes the hours of blood sweat and tears. Once you are there that is no longer mandatory (though some now choose to continue with the same zeal). I know traders that are happy to take a couple of points out of the market 2,3 or 4 times a week. They have there 'levels' drawn after about 10 minutes and there orders placed 5 minutes after that. After that they are done for the day. Their argument is that the reason they chose this career was for the freedom it offered. Can't fault the logic.

 

Personally I have done the 18 hour a day stints watching two continents markets studying in slack times eating at the computer, taking a trading book to bed. Its easy to burn out emotionally (as well as financially) and I did more than once. Actually I'm still not sure I'm completely in the clear .

 

With the benefit of hindsight quality of effort/study is oh so important. Quality over quantity everytime, of course starting out it can be hard to tell. I would often do anything (and everything) to avoid tackling the real issues that I needed to address. I am still prone to allow myself to be distracted and justify it by saying I am 'working' because its trading related.

 

I'd start with a plan that lays out what you are going to do and how you are going to do it milestones etc. Just as if you where going to start any other business and transition from part time to full time. Do it 'for real' ask your self if someone else gave me this plan would I invest in the venture? If I was the bank would I support it? etc. I'm sure there are loads of places you can get info on writing a good business plan. The 'business' part of a trading plan (including the micro and macro parts of money management) are pretty critical. Actually its probably better to have a business plan with a trading part rather than the other way round.

 

Cheers.

[Nick1984 10]

The money management question has always puzzled me. Lets say you decide to take the plunge and become a full time trader and you have saved up $20k and decide to place $10k in your trading account and $10k to suppliment your living expenses for a while. So you start trading and lets assume you're successfull consistenty and making 20 YM points per day trading 1-2 contracts. So assume you're making anywhere between $500-1000 per week. Your original $10k wont last too long if your knocking out the rent, going out, etc etc so soon you find yourself having to rely on your trading profits to fund your lifestyle.

 

Drawing down from your account limits your accounts ability to grow so that you can start trading more contracts to make even more money. This is the biggest conundrum. How do you fund your lifestyle and expect to continue growing your account unless you have some other avenue to have funds coming in to fund day to day living expenses? If you're starting out trading 1 contract at a time you're not going to make a lot of money, and nobody is going to make 20 YM points a day, every day, day in day out. There will be off days where you take a net loss which hinders progress as well.

 

How have you dealt with this problem?

[TinGull 10]

The way I have dealt with it is to cut out the "going out" part of the equation. I still have friends and all, but when they ask if I want to go out to eat or out to the bar....I might go and just have water cause it's free and spend time with them, or I'll just say I'm gonna stay home. "No one became a millionaire by spending money." That's what my girlfriend said last night when I was talking to her about this thread.

 

The way I've chosen to live my life is much different and often much more difficult for lots of people to live. If it were up to me, I'd live off the electric grid and have everything I use powered by the sun and the gas I cook with powered by methane gas (yea, you know where that comes from). Every day I strive to see how much more simple I can make my life and in doing that my cost of living falls all the time.

 

I'm about to move to another state in 3 weeks, back to Maine. Here in Indiana I live in a 1600 sqft 3bedroom house. The house in Maine is a 900sqft 2 bed house. In a time when lots of people up-size their living situations, I'm desperately trying to find out how to downsize every thing that I can. No Starbucks, no big movie theaters ( I do go to the cheap seats on tuesdays for 50 cents a show), we have one car that gets killer gas mileage, grow lots of our own food and other stuff buy directly from the local farmers (which is CHEAP AS HELL!) and use the most energy efficient stuff possible to save on utility bills. It may seem like I'm a tight wad with my cash, but that's because I am.

 

I realized that this business is tough at the get go and started simplifying. That's how I've been able to handle my losing months while I'm learning this whole business.

 

And, having a partner (girlfriend in my case) who understands what the end result of all of this is and is willing to work an outside job to bring in living expenses is a HUGE plus to it all.

 

And blowfish, I'm one of those guys who will take a few points out of the market every day and be satisfied. No other job in the world affords you the opportunity to exponentially increase your income without increasing the effort. Just add another contract! 30-40 YM points a day is fine with me even with 1 contract, so when I'm eventually trading 10+...that's gonna be the life for this little hermit in the hills.

[BlowFish 10]

Nick1984

 

That's the 'scared money' dilemma. In my own case I started trading US afternoon sessions in the evening (UK time) and then moved to a 4 day working week trading one full day in addition. A couple of independent real estate investments have allowed me to give up my previous job without any real financial pressure on my trading.

 

To be honest I can not really imagine trading full time under the financial circumstances you mention though I am sure its possible. I guess I am too old and generally risk adverse nowadays. In any case I would want to be consistently profitable week in week out for I guess at least 6 months though by that time I would expect to have more cash from the 6 months profits anyway!

 

Cheers.

[Soultrader 12]

After going through the small account dillemma.... my sincere advice for all traders is that starting with a small account is the biggest disadvantage ever. Small accounts can not practice sound money management, further yet it has such a strong emotional effect on your trading that you are not able to fully bring out your potential as a trader. I think traders have a better chance working to save up capital to trade while watching and paper trading instead of the time committed to being successful with a small account.　Its just that the way you trade and handle wins/losses changes dramatically once the financial pressure is off your back. The amount of trading experience and education you receive when trading emotionally (due to financial pressure) is actually the long route to overcoming the trading curve. I would say have at least $50k risk capital to trade no more than 2 contracts for any new trader. This is on top of your savings for living expenses. Perhaps trade 1 lot only during the morning session with a maximum drawdown of lets say 30 dow mini pts a day. Meanwhile go work part time in the afternoon to make up your losses. In other words, you will work for free BUT you are creating better odds to becoming a successful trader. Sounds like hell? Well.. welcome to the journey of making it as a trader.

 

I might of sounded a little dramatic there... but I personally think a person not willing to go through that sort of experience is not fit for trading. A sacrifice for say 1-3 years for a lifetime career? Not a bad sacrifice in my opinion.

[GCB 10]

The money management question has always puzzled me. Lets say you decide to take the plunge and become a full time trader and you have saved up $20k and decide to place $10k in your trading account and $10k to suppliment your living expenses for a while. So you start trading and lets assume you're successfull consistenty and making 20 YM points per day trading 1-2 contracts. So assume you're making anywhere between $500-1000 per week. Your original $10k wont last too long if your knocking out the rent, going out, etc etc so soon you find yourself having to rely on your trading profits to fund your lifestyle.

 

Drawing down from your account limits your accounts ability to grow so that you can start trading more contracts to make even more money. This is the biggest conundrum. How do you fund your lifestyle and expect to continue growing your account unless you have some other avenue to have funds coming in to fund day to day living expenses? If you're starting out trading 1 contract at a time you're not going to make a lot of money, and nobody is going to make 20 YM points a day, every day, day in day out. There will be off days where you take a net loss which hinders progress as well.

 

How have you dealt with this problem?

 

If you are single you can be more flexible. Try to find a job where you can trade in the morning and work in the afternoon and early evening until you get proficient enough and gain enough money to support yourself.

[GCB 10]

I've been fortunate enough to have a large windfall from the tech bubble which I've been living on while I learn to trade. But that is dwindling, though I have learned much and am getting better. It's a race with the clock though.