Inverted Hammer

[wrbtrader 10]

NihabaAshi,

 

I have some problems to understand your last annotation about the YM start time. On the CBOT site I see the trading hours for the YM last from 6:15 pm to 4:00 pm. I cannot find anything, who changes at 8:20 am. So, please give me some hints, why the start time should be at 8:20 am

 

With eSiganl, I have the possibility to create another time frame with your recommended start time. (Look annotated chart)

 

Thanks for your explications

 

Hi Habi,

 

I'm not sure if I understand your question because your obviously using CBOT time for YM and not CME time for YM due to the fact your chart shows YM regular session chart with an open @ 0820am est and a close of that same first 15min interval @ 0835am est.

 

Also, the CBOT website does not show the actual start time of YM (open auction).

 

Instead, it shows that "Electronic" hours as 6:15pm - 4:00pm cst (chicago time).

 

In contrast, the CBOT does show the atual open auction time of its other DJIA futures product to be 7:20am - 3:15pm (chicago time)...

 

Convert that to my est and its 8:20pm - 4:15pm est.

 

Thus, like my data vendors, our charts do not show a Shooting Star nor a Inverted Hammer pattern as seen on TinGull chart.

 

Thus, I'll explain it a different way.

 

I'm talking about the regular trading session charts...not globex (all session) charts that has all the overnight data.

 

Some data vendors has there regular trading charts set for YM to start at 0930am est so that it correlates with the rth time of the EMD, ER2, ES and NQ on the CME.

 

Any data vendor that shows YM regular trading chart to start at 0930am has altered YM so that it correlates with EMD, ER2, ES and NQ.

 

My point is that YM regular trading chart starts at 0820am est and if your regular session chart shows that...

 

Your ok.

 

Another way to look at it, your first 15min chart interval for the day in YM via the regular session chart should show that first 15min interval to have open at 0820am and closed at 0835am est.

 

Thus, if your YM 15min regular session chart shows the first 15min interval to have open at 0930am and closed at 0945am est...

 

Your using a data vendor that has alter its YM info so that it correlates with the regular session start times of the other Eminis.

 

A few years back, there were some data vendors that didn't even include the trades between 4pm - 4:15pm est for the Index Futures so that it correlates with their stock chart information.

 

I saw a few such charts (can't remember the names of the data vendors other that their costs was extremely cheap) over at another discussion forum I post at.

 

All I'm saying is this, when doing Japanese Candlestick analysis, just be aware that your using getting all the data and not data that has been clipped off the front or end because such data will alter your Candlestick patterns when you begin increasing your chart intervals.

 

Thus, if your analyzing 1min chart intervals at exactly 10am est...it doesn't matter if your using a data vendor that shows YM to start at 0820am, 9am or 0930am est.

 

However, things change quickly as soon as you go to the 3min chart for Japanese Candlestick analysis.

[habi 10]

Hi NihabaAshi,

 

Thanks for your detailed answer.

 

Till now, I used the same start time as (it seems to me) most traders here with the regular trading sesson. With the eSignal adv. Chart-Tool I have the possibility to create different time templates. So, with my annotated chart I would show you that it is possible with eSignal, to create a chart with a start time 8:20am. I already used different time frames, but no one, that started at 8:20am. If you say, that the professionals use this start time, the I have to make some changes in my charts.

 

I already asked several people, how they look on a 60 min chart. Start time 0930am, 1030am .. or 0930am, 0010am, 0011am? Now, I have a new version like 0820am, 0920am and so on. Most sad, that an hourly chart ends at the full hour. It seems, that you have another opinion?

 

I'm a little confused now, because as you allready mentioned, a change in the time template makes also changes for the candlestick formations.:rolleyes:

[TinGull 10]

Regarding times...if one is to be a purest, then sure, you can use those times. I would ask, though...what is the rest of the world watching? I would bet that taking a poll of a thousand traders who trade the YM, their charts aren't set to start at 8:20am EST. So, if they arent watching those charts, then what are they most likely watching? I know lots of people I speak with watch charts that start at 9:30am for the regular session.

 

I would rather watch what everyone else watches, but that's just me. So my charts are set for 9:30-4:15 for the YM.

[habi 10]

Yes, I agree. If the rest of the world is watching the charts with start time 0930am, then I would do the same. But if the professional traders looks to other charts, I prefer to have the same view. So the main question is, who uses which charts?

[notouch 10]

NihabaAshi, YM rth are defined on the CBOT website as being from the start of equities trading to the close of ECBOT electronic trading i.e. 0930-1700 EST.

[Guest cooter]

NihabaAshi, YM rth are defined on the CBOT website as being from the start of equities trading to the close of ECBOT electronic trading i.e. 0930-1700 EST.

 

Really? Post your link that conclusively backs up your statement, notouch.

[notouch 10]

I just checked and I was probably wrong about that - it looks like rth are the open auction open to the electronic close:

 

http://www.cbot.com/cbot/pub/cont_detail/0,3206,931+33905,00.html

 

I think it would be silly to base your charts on that given the correlation between the ES and YM and given the fact that the underlying stocks dont start trading until 0930 EST. Every man and his dog in the US equities market and their derivatives is looking at the 0930 open so it makes no sense to be pedantic and look at the 0820 CBOT pit open (which doesn't get much volume anyway).

[Guest cooter]

That being cleared up now, I'd have to say that I do agree that YM (or DD or DJ, for that matter) really should be based on the RTH for the NYSE + 15 min extra (9:30-4:15 est), since the other CME index futures follow that timeframe.

 

You're probably best off using a custom session for your YM charts to make your candlesticks conform accordingly.

[wrbtrader 10]

Hi NihabaAshi,

 

Thanks for your detailed answer.

 

Till now, I used the same start time as (it seems to me) most traders here with the regular trading sesson. With the eSignal adv. Chart-Tool I have the possibility to create different time templates. So, with my annotated chart I would show you that it is possible with eSignal, to create a chart with a start time 8:20am. I already used different time frames, but no one, that started at 8:20am. If you say, that the professionals use this start time, the I have to make some changes in my charts.

 

I already asked several people, how they look on a 60 min chart. Start time 0930am, 1030am .. or 0930am, 0010am, 0011am? Now, I have a new version like 0820am, 0920am and so on. Most sad, that an hourly chart ends at the full hour. It seems, that you have another opinion?

 

I'm a little confused now, because as you allready mentioned, a change in the time template makes also changes for the candlestick formations.:rolleyes:

 

Yep, that also means that YM with a 0820am est regular chart time has a last interval of the trading day not equal in time duration for particular intervals such as the 15min chart interal even though the last interval will end at 4:15pm est.

 

For example, the last chart interval for the 3min chart really only has 1min worth of transactions.

 

However, the time template has no problem with the 1min, 5min chart as examples in that all intervals are equal in time duration.

 

Also, your chart example proved me wrong in that eSignal now has the option of showing the 0820am est data whereas in the past it did not.

 

Yet, there are still many other low tier data providers still using the 0930am est regular session start time for YM.

 

By the way, this discussion is not aimed at veteran traders because they tend to understand the price action. Thus, they aren't too caught up with what type of Bearish or Bullish pattern it is.

 

They just want to know if its Bullish or Bearish via their understanding of the markets and don't get too boggy down about what type of chart pattern just occurred.

 

Regarding times...if one is to be a purest, then sure, you can use those times. I would ask, though...what is the rest of the world watching? I would bet that taking a poll of a thousand traders who trade the YM, their charts aren't set to start at 8:20am EST. So, if they arent watching those charts, then what are they most likely watching? I know lots of people I speak with watch charts that start at 9:30am for the regular session.

 

I would rather watch what everyone else watches, but that's just me. So my charts are set for 9:30-4:15 for the YM.

 

Hi TinGull,

 

Most retail traders I know (mainly online trading pals) are using YM with a regular trading session start time of 0930am est whereas in comparison the professional firm traders are using 0820am est.

 

However, understanding the price action prior to the appearance of any pattern signal makes this discussion unimportant.

 

Once again, this discussion is not aimed at veteran traders because they tend to understand the price action.

 

This discussion is aimed at newbie traders applying Japanese Candlestick analysis because they tend to put more emphasis on the candlestick pattern (it defines the price action) instead of understanding the price action.

 

As for me, I've been using the 0820am est start time for YM regular session chart and will continue to do so especially since its caused me no problems in my intermarket analysis with other key markets.

 

Just keep in mind that most of the traders I personally know are pro traders whereas those I know online tend to be retail traders.

 

Simply, the guys I have beers with or hang out with in person are using the 0820am YM regular session chart and that obviously has impact on my bias.

 

Thus, if a 0930am YM regular hour start time works fine for you...keep using it.

 

Further, I completely agree with what cooter said in that YM on the CBOT should have the same start time as the CME Eminis to keep everything uniform.

 

Why its not that way is very odd.

 

To notouch, most retail traders are using the 0930am regular session chart except for most professional traders.

 

Therefore, not every man and his dog are watching the 0930am as a start time.

 

However, your absolutely correct in that there's not much action between 0820am - 0930am est except for when there's a 0830am est key economic report(s).

 

That's when the 0820am est price action becomes very useful along with setting up possible support/resistance zones for trades that occurs after 0930am est.

 

Therefore, its info that's important on some trading days.

 

Last of all, anybody check out the regular session start time of EuroFX on the CME...it's 0820am est.

 

Go figure. :mad:

[notouch 10]

NihabaAshi, I don't think YM gets a huge amount of professional interest, apart from arbitrage programs. Apart from the arbs it's mainly small and medium sized retail traders that trade YM. Just compare the lot sizes on the YM tape (more than 100 is unusually large) to the ES tape (not unusual to see 1000 lots going through). Most professionals are trading the stocks, the GLOBEX futures or the CME pit so it makes sense, if one believes that following the professionals is important, to use the rth for equities and CME i.e. 0930 to 1600 or 1615. Of course noting the overnight action is important but interesting overnight action often begins much earlier than 0820.

 

Also this whole debate will soon be academic because YM is transferring to GLOBEX early next year so you may as well start getting used to it now.

[wrbtrader 10]

NihabaAshi, I don't think YM gets a huge amount of professional interest, apart from arbitrage programs. Apart from the arbs it's mainly small and medium sized retail traders that trade YM. Just compare the lot sizes on the YM tape (more than 100 is unusually large) to the ES tape (not unusual to see 1000 lots going through). Most professionals are trading the stocks, the GLOBEX futures or the CME pit so it makes sense, if one believes that following the professionals is important, to use the rth for equities and CME i.e. 0930 to 1600 or 1615. Of course noting the overnight action is important but interesting overnight action often begins much earlier than 0820.

 

Also this whole debate will soon be academic because YM is transferring to GLOBEX early next year so you may as well start getting used to it now.

 

The issue here is Japanese Candlestick analysis for those that plan on using it.

 

You have a choice to use an alter picture or not.

 

Further, the fact that the high end data vendors do not alter that picture while the low end data vendors tend (not all of them but most of them) do alter that picture should concern anyone doing Japanese Candlestick analysis on YM.

 

I just can't imagine calling up my data provider and tell them to include an option to alter YM because most of my retail trading pals are using the CME session time for YM instead of the CBOT session time for YM.

 

Simply, I use what my data provider gives me and what they give me is not an alter image.

 

Further, as you noted, next year all data vendors will be on the same page when YM transfers and this will no longer be an issue for new traders.

 

Yet, for definition discussions, just don't be surprised that some traders have different candlestick patterns for YM in comparison to others.

 

Therefore, the issue isn't really (as I noted before) if its a Doji, Shooting Star or Inverted Hammer on that 15min YM chart.

 

The issue is do we understand the price action to see that it was bearish.

[TinGull 10]

 

One starting to show it's head on GDX, gold miners...

[walterw 10]

I also see Tin you had previously a nice flip with a beautifull hammer/ doji there...

 

cheers Walter.

[TinGull 10]

Sure did Walter!! There's one setting up intraday on a stock I'm watching...I'll let you know how it goes in an hour or so...hopefully.