Head Games

[Tevtrader 10]

Hello Traders,

 

I am new to this site, but really enjoying it. I have been trading futures for about a year and a half now. I have been fortunate enough to have a great mentor to teach me. I feel I have good setups and sound money management. My BIG problem is lack of confidence in my abilities. I know this is a killer in trading! I see my setups right in front of me...staring me in the face, then all the normal fears enter my head. (everyone here is fully aware of them) I have tried and read everything I can find on overcoming the fear of taking the trade. Yet, I still go through it everytime. I always feel like there is someone smarter and better than me on the other side of the trade. Maybe this is not a trading related issue, but I must conquer it if I am to be successful. Anyone dealt with this and have any drastic steps they took to overcome it?

 

Thanks for any help you can give!

[jperl 11]

Hi TevTrader,, welcome aboard...

 

You say you've been trading for 1 1/2 years. Are you making money or losing money?

 

a)If you are making money, keep at it...Eventually you will get more relaxed and confident in what you are doing

 

b)If you are losing money.. Stop trading with real dollars and switch to simulated trading with play money. Develop your plan and don't trade with real money until you are consistently profitable for 1 month. (This could take a year or more).

 

c)If you've been doing only sim trading and are consistently profitable for 1 month, but still not relaxed....then keep doing sim trading until you are relaxed. Trading has to be second nature.

 

d)If you've been doing only sim trading and are losing money, then you don't have a trading plan yet which you are confident in. Keep at it until you do have a trading plan which works for you and can get consistent profits for 1 month.

 

Don't do both sim trading and real trading in some kind of haphazard fashion. You'll never get relaxed that way.

[Tevtrader 10]

Thanks Jperl,

 

I am a mildly profitable trader at this point. I will lay out my typical scenario. I will go days with missing setups and trades.....both winners and losers. Then I finally get fed up enough to just pick a day and take trades no matter what. And of course those are the days I run into 2 or 3 losers in a row. Which is not a problem, except I have missed all the winners on previous days. I have a clearly defined setup and plan, it's just the lack of confidence. And you are probably right, it will take time. I'm sure there are no magic answers.

 

Thanks Again

[jperl 11]

  Tevtrader said:

Thanks Jperl,

 

I am a mildly profitable trader at this point. I will lay out my typical scenario. I will go days with missing setups and trades.....both winners and losers. Then I finally get fed up enough to just pick a day and take trades no matter what. And of course those are the days I run into 2 or 3 losers in a row. Which is not a problem, except I have missed all the winners on previous days. I have a clearly defined setup and plan, it's just the lack of confidence. And you are probably right, it will take time. I'm sure there are no magic answers.

 

Thanks Again

 

Sounds to me that you are not ready for prime time. You haven't developed the discipline yet to believe in your trading plan. So I suggest you stop trading real cash and switch to simulation mode. Take every trade that comes along that is part of your trade setup and see how you do. Be honest with yourself. You don't want to be trading real dollars until you've developed that hard nosed discipline that comes with trading and are convinced that your plan works for you.

[TinGull 10]

Tevtrader...you just explained EXACTLY what it's like during a week of my life. To a T!

[brownsfan019 17]

Tev - I think at some point, we all go thru what you are going thru. I suggest that if you've PROVEN to yourself that your setups are profitable over the long haul, then you just have to do it. Sooner or later you'll have no choice as the next step is insanity. I can totally understand as this is a purely mental issue and I would suggest to make a promise to yourself for next week (assuming you KNOW you are profitable if you take everything) - start a new thread here and update it during the day (if possible) and at the end of day with how many setups you had and how many you took. Make yourself accountable to this board. Only you will know the truth, so just post the real results, good or bad. Put the numbers in front of you. No more guessing, let's do this NEXT WEEK!

 

My suggested format for tracking:

# OF SETUPS:

# OF SETUPS TAKEN:

% OF SETUPS TAKEN:

WHAT P&L 'SHOULD' HAVE BEEN:

ACTUAL P&L:

So, you ready to step up and beat this mental beast?

[brownsfan019 17]

  jperl said:

Sounds to me that you are not ready for prime time. You haven't developed the discipline yet to believe in your trading plan. So I suggest you stop trading real cash and switch to simulation mode. Take every trade that comes along that is part of your trade setup and see how you do. Be honest with yourself. You don't want to be trading real dollars until you've developed that hard nosed discipline that comes with trading and are convinced that your plan works for you.

 

Only problem with that Jerry is that some people, myself included, cannot take sim trading and treat it as real. I never had much success with sim trading b/c it's too easy to not treat it as real $. If he's been trading for 1.5 years, I don't know how useful sim trading will be. Scaling back to one contract could accomplish much more, in a shorter period of time.

[Guest cooter]

  brownsfan019 said:

Only problem with that Jerry is that some people, myself included, cannot take sim trading and treat it as real. I never had much success with sim trading b/c it's too easy to not treat it as real $. If he's been trading for 1.5 years, I don't know how useful sim trading will be. Scaling back to one contract could accomplish much more, in a shorter period of time.

 

Why is sim trading bogus?

 

No money on the line - no real emotions as to the outcome of the trade, I'd suppose.

 

So you'll make or take any trade, whereas in a real account you probably might not take 'em all. (Although some would say you should.... )

 

Also the sim must be realistic and not footloose and fancy free, treating limit orders as though they were market if touched orders. I've run across quite a few of those in my time, and needless to say "hypothetical performance is not indicative of real results".

[brownsfan019 17]

  cooter said:

Why is sim trading bogus?

 

No money on the line - no real emotions as to the outcome of the trade, I'd suppose.

 

So you'll make or take any trade, whereas in a real account you probably might not take 'em all. (Although some would say you should.... )

 

Also the sim must be realistic and not footloose and fancy free, treating limit orders as though they were market if touched orders. I've run across quite a few of those in my time, and needless to say "hypothetical performance is not indicative of real results".

 

It just doesn't work for me Cooter b/c the emotional aspect of the trade is not there. It's a 'oh well, who cares what happens here' (b/c no real money is on the line). Sim can work for some, but not me. I just don't take it seriously enough I guess. Show me the benjamins baby!

 

And you bring up the other GREAT point that if your sim platform is not realistic, then it's a complete waste of time in my opinion b/c you get a false sense of security real quick. And then BAM, things change in real-time. That will mess with your psyche real quick. In the end, taking day/weeks to 'practice' on Sim can actually set you back YEARS.

[jperl 11]

  brownsfan019 said:

Only problem with that Jerry is that some people, myself included, cannot take sim trading and treat it as real.

That's part of the problem. If he can't treat sim trading as real, think of what he would do with real cash

 

  brownsfan019 said:

Scaling back to one contract could accomplish much more, in a shorter period of time.

. I don't like this idea at all. If he can't be profitable trading 1 contract in a sim account, then it's pointless going to real cash. The whole idea of a sim account is to let you explore ideas without going into bankruptcy AND to learn how to develop the discipline needed to trade with real cash.

[Guest cooter]

It's so clear, I'm sorry to say

But if you wanna win you gotta learn how to play

 

Head games

[brownsfan019 17]

  jperl said:

That's part of the problem. If he can't treat sim trading as real, think of what he would do with real cash

 

. I don't like this idea at all. If he can't be profitable trading 1 contract in a sim account, then it's pointless going to real cash. The whole idea of a sim account is to let you explore ideas without going into bankruptcy AND to learn how to develop the discipline needed to trade with real cash.

 

Again - Sim trading for me was a complete waste of time. That means, others may be the same way. The OP should hear both sides of the story before deciding. I am a TERRIBLE sim trader. Does that mean trading real money is too dangerous? If so, please explain why b/c my bank account would say otherwise.

 

Also, if trading ONE YM contract is going to put you into bankruptcy, you should not be trading period.

 

Trading money SHOULD be RISK CAPITAL ONLY.

DO NOT TRADE WITH THE MORTGAGE PAYMENT, GROCERY MONEY, ETC.

 

Risk money means money you can AFFORD to lose. That means bankruptcy is NOT a possibility. Anyone trading with their 'need to live on' money is foolish and deserves what they get.

[jperl 11]

  brownsfan019 said:

I am a TERRIBLE sim trader. Does that mean trading real money is too dangerous? If so, please explain why b/c my bank account would say otherwise.

 

For the vast majority of traders, if you can't trade sim with consistency and discipline, means you won't trade real cash any differently. Brownsfan, you are probably one of those outliers for which this is not the case . You need the rush of real cash on the line to wake you out of your complacency.

 

Anyone else out there besides brownsfan and cooter who need this kind of rush. Lets here from you.

[TinGull 10]

It sounds like he's got a plan that he knows is a successful one, its just he might be always thinking that the market will outsmart him. The fact of the matter is that one has to have trust in things. The market will outsmart everyone from time to time. Thats just a fact. If he's got setups that he SEES are profitable, but just lacks the confidence to take them, I think its more a lack of confidence in the markets rather than just the setup.

 

Treat the market as a friend rather than an adversary. If it goes against you and you get stopped out, just think of it as a wrong turn to the mall with your friend at the wheel. You know how to get there, right? Just trust that the way will be found and you'll be fine. I battled this for a while and realized that I can't have the market build trust with me, I just need to grant it trust until it breaks it. It hasn't broken my trust yet...sometimes it just takes me down a wrong road, but I know next week, or next month, or maybe tomorrow, I'll get back to where I want to be.

[jperl 11]

  TinGull said:

.

Treat the market as a friend rather than an adversary.

 

You've got to be kidding. The market doesn't give a rat's ass about you TinGull. At times, it'll take your money and kick you while your down too. At other times it will be sweet and give its all to you just for the asking. It is totally amoral. The only good thing about the market is that it doesn't care whether you stay or leave. It always takes you back whenever you want.

[TinGull 10]

I think you're missing the point I'm making Jerry. I know the market doesn't give a crap about me or anyone else. EVERYTHING is in ones mind, though. If you can program your mind to think that something is going with you instead of it going against you, then you're going to be more apt to grant it trust. Thats what I've done, and you don't have to if it doesn't work for you. I'm just shooting out an idea.

 

So, no, I wasn't kidding.

[brownsfan019 17]

Make sure you guys check out my idea here - http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f37/holding-yourself-accountable-idea-2039.html

[Tevtrader 10]

Thanks for all the discussion guys, I appreciate it. I think you have hit it on the head. I just have to take 1 week and take all the setups. No second guessing, no outsmarting myself. As my mentor continues to harp on me, JUST KEEP IT SIMPLE! I have tried SIM trading and I think it can serve a purpose. I believe the emotional part, which is my major hang up, can only be felt with money on the line. I have reached the point where I am just sick of not taking my trades. I think I can committ to one week. Although a small sample, it will be a huge step forward.

 

Thanks again, I will update.