Altruistic traders - why?

[MrPaul 10]

Anyone who trades the markets is likely well served by understanding their microstructure. While the book can be tedious and not totally transparent at times, I think we can all be served by having a look at Trading Exchanges by Larry Harris. It provides an interesting taxonomy of trading types. It is a large book and expensive ( somewhere aroung $US60), so this type of book purchase is not to be taken lightly and only for serious traders who want this type of in-depth understanding of market microstructure. You don't need it to make money! I can assure you of that. What is does is put the various players in the market into some kind of interesting perspective.

 

Hope this helps a bit!

 

Janice

 

I'll concur, I paid full retail ($100) for that book and it was worth every cent. Not an easy read, but well worth the time...

[walterw 10]

Indeed, it does help - thanks for sharing, Janice.

 

In fact, here's an early draft of Prof Harris' tome for everyone reading pleasure.

 

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/%7Elharris/Trading/Book/Book-extract.pdf

 

Enjoy!

 

P.S. More info about Prof Harris can be found here:

 

Professor Larry Harris's USC Home Page

 

Cooter, you rock man ¡¡ thanks for this link..¡ cheers Walter.

[thetradingdoctor 10]

Great searching, Cooter! Thanks! I hope this book helps many to appreciate the microstructure of the markets. Take it slow and in small doses. Use it like a reference book. Thanks!

 

Janice

[Jakew 10]

Well it seems that in the actual fact a trader cannot really help another trader, on a deep level. Trading just like life in general isn't so much about knowing what to do, but about being able to do what needs to be done. It isn't a secret what needs to be done.

[Don4 10]

Indeed, it does help - thanks for sharing, Janice.

 

In fact, here's an early draft of Prof Harris' tome for everyone reading pleasure.

 

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/%7Elharris/Trading/Book/Book-extract.pdf

 

Enjoy!

 

P.S. More info about Prof Harris can be found here:

 

Professor Larry Harris's USC Home Page

 

 

Thanks cooter!!!!

[Reaver 10]

I have to agree with Tin and Soul.

 

Not only is teaching one of the best ways to learn in and of itself as it forces you to distill the knowledge into a more succinct and efficient format- By exchanging information, answering questions, etc you are constantly refining yourself and forcing yourself from becoming stagnant or close-minded.

 

Secondly, and perhaps even more importantly, is the fact that it is ethical to help, as Tin said. Whether helping someone change a tire or helping them develop an idea on a forum, helping a fellow human being is always the high road. I couldn't have gotten to the level I am (and I have plenty of road ahead-don't get me wrong) without some outstanding people who took time out of their day(s) to help me out. Some of those individuals are on the forums and some are not- but the fact is, I am going to continue to pay it forward as much as possible.

 

Speaking of which, earlier Walter asked me to expand on my method a little and I shied away from it. Not because I have any issue with sharing, but because I also feel as if I have a responsibility to make sure that I am not shooting off at the mouth about things that may cause harm to others. I once was told there are few things in life more dangerous than an idiot who thinks he knows what he is doing....I don't want to be that idiot. ha ha

 

I am actually thinking about starting up some threads for longer term traders to exchange ideas.

[Warren Forex 10]

I really enjoyed your post. Why not start such such a thread for long term FX traders ?

 

By sharing we all learn and grow.

 

Thank You...

[Tasuki 10]

For the record, I'm not attacking anybody here. I've found it very helpful to share basic information about trading, such as how to use common indicators, or the pros and cons of breakout trading, or how to understand Volume Spread Analysis. However, when I come up with something special that required a vast amount of trading time to develop, I do not share it.

 

As an example of what happens when you do share something special, a well-known trader named Larry Pesavento, who spent years working on the Gartley and Butterfly trades, decided to publish his results to the wider world. No sooner had he published them than a group of savvy programmers figured out the code and put the code on the Tradestation World website, thereby compounding LP's mistake. If you look at the percent success of these trades before and after they became common knowledge, you will see than they worked amazingly well prior to publication, and now they work so poorly that you might as well flip a coin to decide if price will follow the prediction made by the patterns.

[Reaver 10]

Tasuki-

 

I definitely see your point. I can understand the reluctance of one to divulge their "Trade Secrets" (no pun intended) that were hard won.....however the beauty of trading is that you cannot teach someone experience.

 

Think of a parent raising a child....they can tell the kid all day long not to smoke cigarettes or drink or whatever- but really what is going to happen is that the kid is ultimately going to have to find their own way. They can listen to the parent if they are smart and hedge the school of hard knocks some, but ultimately, until the kid finds out for themselves through experience-what the parents told the kid is merely words and guidance....

 

Just like sharing trading info- you really have to end up finding out for yourself to get an understanding.

[Warren Forex 10]

There in my experience is only one way to ensure FX trading success. My results prove that the method that I use to trade is a winning method. If the method that I use is published the results for other FX traders would not match mine. The reason is that human psychology is the most important factor in being a winning trader.

[Warren Forex 10]

I could post here a half dozen ways that anyone could improve their FX trading and I just might do that. I have had experiences in the past posting on FX forums that those with the desire to fail and 95% do just ignore the information and try to convince you that you are wrong. I wonder if this FX forum might be different ?

 

One quick point is without understanding the fundamentals it is almost impossible to be a consistent winner in FX trading.

[Warren Forex 10]

I had a friend who recently died of cancer. He once published these trading rules that he followed. I use most of his rules that always work if applied properly. For the benefit of those that really want to improve and in his beloved memory here are his rules published in a futures magazine.

 

FINALLY...

I’d like to share with you “My personal parameters for

successful commodity trading,†provided by FS, a

TIF subscriber. I think these are great and they mirror many of

my personal trading rules. Serious traders, consider this a

“keeper.†Here it is in Fred’s words:

 

 

With regard to ‘my’ rules, most of them have been around

a lot longer than me and although well-known on the logic

level, are sometimes difficult to implement/execute.

Personally, I think the most important rule is the first one

since all the others are essentially predicated on it. Keep up

the good work with TIF!

 

1. NEVER trade with funds you cannot afford to lose â€â€

the stress will negatively impact your judgment.

 

2. NEVER put on a trade without a SIMULTANEOUS

stop loss. Period. This is seminal.

 

3. NEVER change a stop loss except to move it up/down

as a position moves in your favor. Otherwise just let the stop

loss take you out of the position within predetermined

parameters.

 

4.When in doubt  for whatever reason (instinct?)

– GET OUT.

 

5. Avoid overtrading.

 

6. When trading profitably, get AGGRESSIVE. (We all

have “streaksâ€Â!)

 

7. Never use more than 50% of your equity at one time

and, depending on the size of your account, make certain

that no SINGLE trade uses more than X% of your equity. (I

use 4%.)

 

8. Never add to a losing position. PERIOD.

 

9. Forget your EGO because the market is ALWAYS

right  PERIOD.

 

10. Have patience in winning trades and give them time

to “unfold.â€Â

 

11. Determine in advance what your TIME parameters

are for a trade, as this will impact both strategy as well as

predetermined RISK parameters.

 

12. Money management is at least as important as trade

selection and can be MORE important.

 

13. Trade multiple markets but not more than SEVEN

at a time.

 

 

P.S. These are my friends rules which I had been following before I met him a few years ago. These were rules that were published in TIF magazine. I endorse these RULES 100% He was a commodity trader.

[Reaver 10]

I could post here a half dozen ways that anyone could improve their FX trading and I just might do that. I have had experiences in the past posting on FX forums that those with the desire to fail and 95% do just ignore the information and try to convince you that you are wrong. I wonder if this FX forum might be different ?

 

One quick point is without understanding the fundamentals it is almost impossible to be a consistent winner in FX trading.

 

This definitely not like any of the other forums. That kind of BS isn't tolerated. So definitely feel free to say what you want to say and don't worry about a bunch of immature argument.

[Warren Forex 10]

Thank you. I will give it a try. My only purpose in posting this information is to help FX traders improve their results. I enjoy teaching and learning at the same time.

 

Having a good understanding and skills in the TA side of Forex trading is important. I use one minute, five minute charts as I get in and out of positions quickly. I use the basics such as Bollinger bands, SAR (Excellent Indicator), MACD, RSI and EMA.

 

I am however definitely a fundamental trader. I really understand the world economy. If you really are serious about being a winner you need to understand the nature of the market. The relationship of oil prices, gold prices, interest rates, bond yields etc...

 

You can get much of the real facts for free by just taking the time to read, learn and understand.

 

Here are some of the best sites to go to.

 

(1) http://www.financialsense.com

(2) http://www.321gold.com

(3) http://www.jsmineset.com

 

Try to go to these 3 sites once a day and spend one hour reading whatever interests you. I would be glad to answer any questions that come up !

 

What is the difference between price inflation and asset inflation ? What causes inflation ?

 

This is BASIC but if you do not understand it then when you hear Bernake say he is a inflation fighter you will actually believe him. the FED causes inflation by running the printing presses.

 

That is some of what I have to share. I could share principles of Risk Management and Money Management. That is it to start.

 

Good Trading:)

[PYenner 10]

Thank you Warren

 

Anything you can conveniently share would be appreciated, Risk and Money management are on the need to know list.

[Warren Forex 10]

Let us discuss Money Management !

 

Save up $10,000 US Dollars after you have Demo traded for about one year with a $50,000 US Dollars Demo account.

 

Now you are maybe ready to trade for real with real funds.

 

With the $10,000 US Dollars on deposit do not trade more than 20% of the funds. Therefore you can buy 2 positions of USD/JPY using $2000 US Dollars of your capital. Say you sold USD/JPY at 1.1900 just after the NFP number of 92,000 New Jobs on Friday that was announced.

 

You had put your Stop Loss at 1.1920...Your MAXIMUM loss would have been 20 PIPS times 2 Positions or $400 US Dollars as your loss. That adds up to 4%of your starting capital. You might have bought one Position at 1.1900 and a second one at 1.1880 to average in your costs.

 

If you had lowered your stops during the day as the Dow continued to head lower after 2:00 PM EST than you would have a nice profit for little risk using this method that I use.

 

I was out of ALL Positions except for 2 USD/JPY that I entered at 1.1922 prior to the 8:30 AM EST release of the NFP numbers. I was also waiting for the ISM number at 10:00 AM

 

I would be glad to answer any questions that you may have.

 

Regards

[Warren Forex 10]

Any serious FX traders try hard to read and understand the information in the link that I will post now... http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/2007/0803.html

 

Even if you are a TA FX Trader you can only improve your FX trading understanding the subject matter.

 

I try hard every day to learn and understand more about TA

 

Good Trading All !

[thetradingdoctor 10]

Hello All,

 

I am here listening to this. It is a totally individual decision re: helping others to trade. I love helping others with the psychological aspects of their trading and seeing them improve on a steady basis. However, I limit myself to trading one market and do not coach traders in that market. I coach a lot of people, but no gold traders. This is my way of staying out of my way and not putting myself in a position to second guess what I am doing. Could I make more money trading several markets? Most likely I could, but it is my choice at this time to trade less, write more and help as many people as I can to take themselves to trading excellent. It has taken me 14 years of trading to get to this point, but I came to trading from a profession which was very good to me financially and I did everything possible to save and invest for passive income. This behavior comes from my personal history which many of you already know, and if you wonder and don't know, please ask and I will tell you?

 

We are talking about individual preferences here. No one is right and no one is wrong. It is totally up to each individual to make his or her own choice about how to help or not help another trader, how much to help or not help another trader, etc.

 

In order for free flow of discussion on this thread, we are in a situation of unconditional positive regard for each other. This is always principles before personalities. That means that everyone is free to speak his or her mind and share the many thoughts and feelings you have. We are here to share experience, strength and hope with each other. In this world where there is so much anger, hostility, hatred, retribution and pain inflicted upon us by others, it is a refuge to find a space place where we know we can speak openly and without fear of retribution. In the process, we remember that, depspite differences in opinions, we respect each other and send kindness as the greatest gift we give to each other. It is up to each of you to take things personally or not take them personally. I say let's band together to make this thread a safe place for everyone and refrain from any personal attacks. We are all in the same boat. We are all learning something every day, and learning is best with free exchange of ideas, data, information and knowledge. I hold every one of you in unconditional positive regard and I love interacting with you.

 

That said, I am starting a new thread today on the Market Mistress.

 

Thanks for being there and listening to me today!

 

Doctor Janice

[walterw 10]

I could post here a half dozen ways that anyone could improve their FX trading and I just might do that. I have had experiences in the past posting on FX forums that those with the desire to fail and 95% do just ignore the information and try to convince you that you are wrong. I wonder if this FX forum might be different ?

 

One quick point is without understanding the fundamentals it is almost impossible to be a consistent winner in FX trading.

 

 

A basic tenet of Technical Analisis is that it discounts Fundamental analisis... NOw If you have enogh level of preparation on fundamental analisis I believe you may have some edge on a only technical analist... the problem is learning fundamentals... there is no so much information on the non-formal study resources.... I would really apreciatte Warren if you start a thread on fundamentals, it would be very nce to know something about this, would really aprecciate... cheers Walter.

[walterw 10]

Hello All,

 

I am here listening to this. It is a totally individual decision re: helping others to trade. I love helping others with the psychological aspects of their trading and seeing them improve on a steady basis. However, I limit myself to trading one market and do not coach traders in that market. I coach a lot of people, but no gold traders. This is my way of staying out of my way and not putting myself in a position to second guess what I am doing. Could I make more money trading several markets? Most likely I could, but it is my choice at this time to trade less, write more and help as many people as I can to take themselves to trading excellent. It has taken me 14 years of trading to get to this point, but I came to trading from a profession which was very good to me financially and I did everything possible to save and invest for passive income. This behavior comes from my personal history which many of you already know, and if you wonder and don't know, please ask and I will tell you?

 

We are talking about individual preferences here. No one is right and no one is wrong. It is totally up to each individual to make his or her own choice about how to help or not help another trader, how much to help or not help another trader, etc.

 

In order for free flow of discussion on this thread, we are in a situation of unconditional positive regard for each other. This is always principles before personalities. That means that everyone is free to speak his or her mind and share the many thoughts and feelings you have. We are here to share experience, strength and hope with each other. In this world where there is so much anger, hostility, hatred, retribution and pain inflicted upon us by others, it is a refuge to find a space place where we know we can speak openly and without fear of retribution. In the process, we remember that, depspite differences in opinions, we respect each other and send kindness as the greatest gift we give to each other. It is up to each of you to take things personally or not take them personally. I say let's band together to make this thread a safe place for everyone and refrain from any personal attacks. We are all in the same boat. We are all learning something every day, and learning is best with free exchange of ideas, data, information and knowledge. I hold every one of you in unconditional positive regard and I love interacting with you.

 

That said, I am starting a new thread today on the Market Mistress.

 

Thanks for being there and listening to me today!

 

Doctor Janice

 

 

Nice to hear from you Janice ¡¡ cheers Walter.

[Jakew 10]

I guess I am a terrible cynic but I think the reason anyone does anything is essentially selfish. There is nothing wrong with being selfish imo. Put another way people do things for others because it makes them feel good. Or as has been said they hope to learn something through the exchange (self interest). Or they just want to 'show off' (look at me aren't I clever). I think even when we do things for our children or loved ones it is because when they feel good we feel good (so a selfish action even if for another). Even when we do things out of a sense of responsibility or guilt it is to assuage feelings within ourselves.

 

btw Isn't a speculator simply someone that assumes risk for a potential reward. Not quite sure how that fits in (yet).

 

Personally I always wanted to be hugely succesful at trading (10's or even 100's of millions). Apart from satisfying my Ego I'd really like to make a big difference in the world (money affords that opportunity). The reason? to make me feel good. (Who wouldn't feel good about improving society?) Personally I see no conflict between altruism and selfishness.

 

 

 

True, most likely. In any case, we need more of those "egoistic altruists" rather than "egoistic egoists" in our world. It is beautiful when people derive satisfaction form helping rather than hindering. Along these lines - who like stoics draw satisfaction from behaving like their noble code they embraced dictates them, with no regard of the outcome (of the trade, one might say)

[Warren Forex 10]

A basic tenet of Technical Analisis is that it discounts Fundamental analisis... NOw If you have enogh level of preparation on fundamental analisis I believe you may have some edge on a only technical analist... the problem is learning fundamentals... there is no so much information on the non-formal study resources.... I would really apreciatte Warren if you start a thread on fundamentals, it would be very nce to know something about this, would really aprecciate... cheers Walter.

 

Dear Walter W or anyone else reading my reply. If there is enough interest I will start and continue to post in such a FUNDAMENTAL THREAD.

 

Please let me know.

 

[mister ed 10]

Dear Walter W or anyone else reading my reply. If there is enough interest I will start and continue to post in such a FUNDAMENTAL THREAD.

 

Please let me know.

 

 

Hi Warren - would it be a thread on FX fundamentals?

Edited February 3, 2008 by mister ed
spelling

[Warren Forex 10]

It Would be on the Fundamental Knowledge of the FX markets needed to be a winning FX trader. Trading by TA alone just does not work.

[mister ed 10]

It Would be on the Fundamental Knowledge of the FX markets needed to be a winning FX trader. Trading by TA alone just does not work.

 

Thanks Warren - My bias is technicals but I think a lot of value can be added to FX trading by even just a basic knowledge of the fundamentals ... so, yes, good idea!