Comments on IOAMT??

[turboscottomatic 10]

I've been starting to do some reading regarding Market Profile concepts as something to add as the next evolution in my trading methods. I've been lurking here and there and I hear positive things said about The Institute of Auction Market Theory (IOAMT) and Bill Druyea as good, solid training in MP/Volume-based methods. Anyone here have any insight into this service? The website gives almost no info other than the opportunity for a 5 day free trial. My understanding is that he is a successful very short term (1-2 pt ES scalps common) trader. This fits my own style and risk tolerance.

 

I would take the free trial, but can't make proper use of it now, as I have a day job that gets into my way. I will be quitting my day job in Sept and taking my small-ish hard-earned trading account to try to make it as full-time trader. I'm not a newbie but not a pro yet either. Can anyone give me some insight regarding the IOAMT experience? Such as: are there expensive seminars to buy or simply a chatroom fee? Is the education solid and useful? Are there software or indicators to buy? In other words, is he primarily a teacher or a seller of things? What is the structure of Bill's teaching? How much will I be spending for an IOAMT education? Are you happy with your experience there? Are you nicely profitable and consistent (I'm not looking for details or statements!) Any downside? I appreciate any info you can give me about your experience with him and it's impact on you as a trader. I'm not shy about spending for value received, but would like to know about costs upfront and know I am getting what I am after. Thanks in advance....

 

Scott Johnson

[momentom 10]

Hi Scott

 

I have heard good things about IOAMT from a trader I resspect but have had no personal experience.

 

I would also suggest a look see at jpjtrading.com. I've done his free trial and he is the real deal for MP. You do 3 months in his room @ $300/month and then its free. JP has specific MP setups to trade. His room is in awe of him for the way he trades.

 

I've no connection to JP other than as above.

[turboscottomatic 10]

Thanks for your input, Momentom. I appreciate it. JPJ is another that I have been looking at and seems to have a good reputation. I'm glad to hear positive things from you about JP. As a matter of fact, the short list I've created for good, MP-type training is this (in no particular order):

 

JPJ Trading

Alexander Trading

Institute of Acution Market Theory

Cisco Futures (Don Jones)

 

I've put this together from comments on this site as well as a few other forums. The reason I asked about IOAMT specifically is that their website is not very informative re: what you get, what you pay, what the expectations are, etc.

 

Also, from looking at JPJ's site, it looks like they tend to try to pick a position early in the day and ride it for some time, with 1 or 2 or 3 trades a day. With my own trading personality, I know that can sometimes make me squirm to keep a trade that long. I'm more a 5 minute kind of guy, and I think that is more along the lines of IOAMT does (so I've heard)....('Course, maybe I NEED TO LEARN to keep a trade longer and stop giving my broker so much! )

 

If you don't mind, why didn't you stay for more than the trial at JPJ? What's his trading style (how many/day, how long, markets, etc)? Did you find it true that he keeps the same trade on for much of the day?

 

Thanks,

Scott

[TinGull 10]

IM definitely interested to hear some about jpj. That completely fits my style of trading. I'd much rather take 1-2 trades a day than 7-10.

 

Its odd that they only do free trials like 2-3 times a year, though. next one is in August....

[maildigger 10]

I've had a free trial ... it tells you nothing! You get access to the room but you only hear the guy yelling You need to take the course (probably?) to understand what he's doing.

[TinGull 10]

How much MP knowledge did you have prior to the room?

[turboscottomatic 10]

Maildigger -

 

Thanks for the reply. Are you talking about Bill Duryea and IOAMT? If so, I see he has a blurb about an "Introductory MP Course" on the front page (WITHOUT any further description) for $295...Is there more and more to buy, or what?

From your time in the room, can you tell me:

 

Was there some structure (ie, coursework, structured studying) available to help you understand what he was yelling in the room?

What is the ongoing charge for the room?

Is he trying to sell a bunch of other stuff as well (seminars, indicators, software packages, newsletters, etc)

Is he making real money, real time, trading a real account in the room?

In your opinion, is this gent primarily a trader who is trying to train others to trade OR a vendor trying to sell things to people?

 

Thanks in advance.....Enquiring minds want to know!

 

Scott

[alleyb 10]

First off let me declare an interest.

1stly I am alleyb who wrote Chapter 17 for John Carter.

2ndly I participate almost daily with Billy in the IOAMT room as a presenter. I have no financial interest in IOAMT but Billy frequently urges me to place my own website link in his room and I have received a few paid sign-ups that way. I have also once in Sept last year done a paid presentation that was billed at 4 hours but lasted over 7 due to attendees demand

3rdly I am the author of MP101 and MP102 the former is no longer availale at the CBOT website unfortunately but both are available free from my own site

 

Billy has a free course on the front page of his site. It is a well written document. It states it has a $295 value but its free and despite it saying it is for a limited time has been available for well over a year. Take it and be your own judge

 

Billy trades and has done for over 10 years. He is an extraordinary tape reader who despite a sometimes caustic (sometimes viewed by people as rude) and autocratic style - But in that respect over the last couple of years he has actually improved from the I'm the coach method to a more congenial way of discussion - actually explains throughout the whole day the unfolding auction. He explains in full detail not just viewing the bid/ask analyzer but with properly detailed charts the process of trading, what to expect and how it looks both in theory and in practice

 

Billy runs the occassional week long teach-ins where previous paid attendees can particpate again for free. On average he has done 3 per year charging if my memory serves me correct $1500. It is an intense course which almost never seems to end.

 

Billy trades exclusively the E-Mini

Billy's style is to grab the first point then look for the 2nd point then hope that he has trade location to hold for more. He used to use a scale-in method that he no longer shows as for most especially undercapitalized traders that is an inappropriate way of trading.

 

Billy explains as it is unfolding not after the event with clear precise information and explanation showing a bid/ask analyzer footprint chart which is akin to a point and figure but with volume displayed. Some have described it as being similar to market delta's volume chart but it it is different and as I do not wish to get into a subjective discussion of which is better so the best way is to take the trial and see for yourslef.

 

Billy does promote the genesis software but purely because they carry a copy of the bid/ask analyzer that he designed (and was coded for him by someone else named Eric who also is in the room occassionally) and uses. The genesis one though is very slightly different to billy's own copy - that he shows in the room - as it is an on-going project

 

I do not know what Billy charges for membership to his room but I believe it is 250 p.m. - right now he has approx 60 people, he peaked at around 110 late last year, he does a daily commentary for the SFO mag that is posted on their website.

Membership is not just access to his room but also allows you to see the database that he has created on his website that covers the 4 U.S. indices with incredible information which is statistically based and calculated in terms of supoort and resistance levels together with a 5 minute delayed bid/ask analyszer that shows the unfolding auction together with emerging value. It is impossible to do it justice in just a few short words here.

 

I compliment Billy in that his ultra-short term scalp style of trading is the anti-thesis of what I do which is to take the traditional market profile chart and analyze it in terms of the longer term trader and his position to establish a short term trade that begins with a scalp but if it starts to work ie trade location is gained then it becomes a swing position looking for in reality just a couple of trades per day on which a structural position can be built

[turboscottomatic 10]

Alleyb -

My hat is off to you. That is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Thank you for a thoughtful, unvarnished account of your experience in Bill's IOAMT room.

 

Scott

[momentom 10]

I didn't stay because I learnt MP from Pete Steidlmayer over 15 years ago and did not see anything at JPs room I did not know. Also, I'm allergic to trading rooms.

 

One thing I'd like to emphasise, JP's room is the only MP room I have seen that teaches you setups you can use in real trading, not just wishy washy theory but practical ways to see setups and pull the trigger. Don't be put off by the "longer" trades because its not quite like that in practice. JP's phylosophy is to scale out of trades and to make his position a risk free trade ASAP.

 

You only see him trade in the free trial - no free give aways but this is probably one of the few rooms I'd sign up for.

 

Thanks for your input, Momentom. I appreciate it. JPJ is another that I have been looking at and seems to have a good reputation. I'm glad to hear positive things from you about JP. As a matter of fact, the short list I've created for good, MP-type training is this (in no particular order):

 

JPJ Trading

Alexander Trading

Institute of Acution Market Theory

Cisco Futures (Don Jones)

 

I've put this together from comments on this site as well as a few other forums. The reason I asked about IOAMT specifically is that their website is not very informative re: what you get, what you pay, what the expectations are, etc.

 

Also, from looking at JPJ's site, it looks like they tend to try to pick a position early in the day and ride it for some time, with 1 or 2 or 3 trades a day. With my own trading personality, I know that can sometimes make me squirm to keep a trade that long. I'm more a 5 minute kind of guy, and I think that is more along the lines of IOAMT does (so I've heard)....('Course, maybe I NEED TO LEARN to keep a trade longer and stop giving my broker so much! )

 

If you don't mind, why didn't you stay for more than the trial at JPJ? What's his trading style (how many/day, how long, markets, etc)? Did you find it true that he keeps the same trade on for much of the day?

 

Thanks,

Scott

[turboscottomatic 10]

Momentom -

 

Thanks for the info. All in all, I think I will likely trial both IOAMT and JPJ to see which suits me best when I can shake off this day job in Sept and actually give trading my full attention (something I've been working toward for the last 3-4 years...). From your comments, alleyb's comments and some of what I've seen on some other boards, I'm pretty confident that one of these two rooms will help me evolve from 'entries/exits' to actually understanding how the market operates and unfolds. Thanks again for your help.

 

Scott

[LS_Chad 10]

JP is starting a free trial week September 24th. He only does this every 3 to 6 months, and only accepts new members during this period. So if you have any interest, you probably should go to his site and get signed up for the trial: http://www.jpjtrading.com/

[Marsupilami 10]

Hello turboscottomatic,

 

it's been some time now since you started this thread. Have you joined IOAMT in the end like you planned ? If yes, I'd be very interested to hear of your experiences with Bill D.

 

I have been reading good things about him. So far everybody says that he is a profitable trader...I am just not so sure whether his style can be learned since it is supposed to be quite discretionary.

 

If other members have experiences with IOAMT, I'd be glad to hear from you as well !

 

Thank you in advance

Regards,

Mars

[marketguy 11]

I just finished a 3 day trial. And I have some opinions.

 

1. Bill is the real deal. There is ton's to learn from him and he generously seems to give it all. He really teaches auction market theory in his own unique way. He is not a replacement for studying Dalton's books. He doesn't really teach much MP theory. He just really understands it. And understands the markets in a really deep way.

 

2. He uses Market Delta software in the chat room and watching the bid/ask volume comes to life in a very different way than watching the videos on the MD site. He's the guy to learn MD from.

 

3. As AllyB said, he can be caustic and autocratic. He is not the warm cuddly type. But its not a problem. He is not an ogre either. He really seems to care and give his all. However, he is really opinionated, can really get into a rant and be pretty negative. I found myself fighting off a slight depression hanging in that vibe. I worked my way thru it each day but it was a challenge at first.

 

4. He doesn't teach specific setups. He anticipates market response at specific price levels.

 

5. The free daily SFO broadcasts are really great. i have been watching them for months and am continually learning.

 

6. The statistics he compiles are really useful.

 

7. He has ton's of material on his site that you get access to on a free trial. I watched them for weeks prior to entering the room. Though the trial is for 3 days, you can join, and really stay for much longer. You only get 3 days in the room. So join, study the material for a few weeks and check out room.

 

8. All in good, I am learning an awful lot from Bill and I really value what he has to offer. It costs $250 per month but I think (for the right person) it is actually totally worth it.

 

9. I don't plan to join right now but I may in the future.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Bryan

[Marsupilami 10]

Hello Bryan,

 

thanks a lot for your detailed response !! I am somewhat glad that your positive opinion on Bill is in line with the things I have heard about him before.

 

Yes, I too do follow his daily recaps on the SFO website whenever I can, it is very basic but it helps to get an impression of his style.

 

I have been in his room about a year ago at the time when he offered a full week free trial - I didn't know much about MP at that time and most of the time didn't know where Bill's position was, whether he was long or short... if he was scaling out, reversing etc...:embarassed:

I was simply overwhelmed by the amount of information that was presented to me in his room :o

 

As I have read on the IOAMT website, there is a course coming out at the beginning of 2008...not an MP course, but a course on Bill's way of anaylizing and trading...I plan to buy it since it hopefully should make the learning curve in his room steeper...I simply do not have the resources to quit my job and spend a year in front of the screen day in and day out...which I think is realistic to fully grasp his stuff.

 

Regards,

Mars

[MPETrader 10]

I have been a member of the IOAMT room in the past (I am no longer in there). I have been through many trading approaches of his. I have come to 1 conclusion. He is not a very profitable trader. Most people in the room usually claim they are making money, but that is because nobody wants to admit how poorly they are doing.

 

Billy is a good salesman. That is about all he is good at.

 

His Money management involves scaling in, which is both an irresponsible way to trade, especially for new traders. Scaling in is good for someone teaching a room, because it can make them appear right more often than wrong, but it can be the source of blowing accounts, etc.

 

He is also has a high ego, tries to make you believe he has all the answers, and can lead you down many wrong paths. Every other day, he has a new "idea" that he uses for a month or so, before he moves on to the next best thing.

 

He is also unclear in the room about entries, how he exits (when he is filled on multiple levels), and he sometimes claims he gets out of trades that you know is almost impossible.

 

Honestly I think traders should stay away from this room. If you must us a trading room. Use someone with discipline, someone that sticks to their entries and exits, and someone that is clear always.

 

One other note, I know traders that sat next to him live, only to see him churn his account, never making any money over long periods of time.

 

Again he is a good salesman, but ask anyone in detail. Does anyone know he makes money trading? Does anyone make consistant money following his trades?

 

I invite responses...

 

-MPETrader

[OAC 10]

I am staying out of this one.

[marketguy 11]

Thanks for your heated comments. All feedback is welcome here. I did pm with a guy in the room who clearly is not making consistent bucks in Bill's room. My interest in Bill is more what I can learn from him. He may not be the best trader. He does seem to trade emotionally, taking marginal trades, with poor entries. Everything I want to unlearn.

 

He seems to have a lot of knowledge about the auction market process. I don't want to trade like him. I just want to better learn to understand and read the auction process. I think he has valuable things to offer. Definitely not for the beginning trader. And not a replacement for Dalton, Steidlmayer and Jones. For me, Bill D. is a step in my learning process.

[OAC 10]

 

He seems to have a lot of knowledge about the auction market process. I don't want to trade like him. I just want to better learn to understand and read the auction process. I think he has valuable things to offer. Definitely not for the beginning trader. .

 

I kind of disagree with that. I watched quite a few of his SFO video clips lately. He talks a lot about the Fed, Subprime, corporate earnings. how they move the market, then he just use "auction" as a fancy word which really don't mean much. My experience with his room is limited. I can't say whether he can trade or not, but he definitely come across as a salesman.

A lot of Market Profile Graphics and very few Market Profile concepts.

Better stick with Dalton.

[Marsupilami 10]

MPEtrader,

 

thanks for providing a different perspective...I initially became interested in IOAMT after I had read an older thread on EliteTrader...

 

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=56686

 

 

There were a few ET members who spoke very highly of Bill...and these were not first time posters....but maybe his trading approach IS so discretionary that only one out of hundred people will be able to imitate it, just like with the "famous" Jack Hershey method :o

[OAC 10]

 

There were a few ET members who spoke very highly of Bill...and these were not first time posters....

 

You have to be careful, a vendor can easily infiltrate a forum. registering for membership requires no proof of age, no credit card, Vendor know how to plant the seeds, they are not that stupid.

[MPETrader 10]

"He seems to have a lot of knowledge about the auction market process."...

 

I can tell you about the auction process...There are buyers and sellers. More buyers move the market up, more sellers move the market down.

 

Honestly there is nothing more about it than that.

 

I am just trying to be helpful and honest. At the end you have to make your own decision, but if the guy has a lot of bad habits, etc I don't know what you think you could learn from him.

 

I have seen too many people waste good time (and money) with him...

 

Has anyone else been in his room? Has anyone made money following his trades, or his "knowledge about the auction market process"?

 

Again, the whole auction process thing is all part of his sales pitch, and I admit it sounds good...but take it from me, he is just another guy selling a room...

 

Good luck whatever you decide...

-MPETrader

[OAC 10]

Again, the whole auction process thing is all part of his sales pitch, and I admit it sounds good...but take it from me, he is just another guy selling a room...

-MPETrader

 

Thank God, I have my MBA and I didn't fall for that Auction Theory talk.

But then my MBA wasn't cheap. Damn, Life is a bitch.

[OAC 10]

BTW for an entrepreneuer, MBA is basically useless. Next time I will go for my Law degree. AbeSmith is smart. If he blows up his account, he just hang up his shingle for his new law practice. Not too shabby.

[Marsupilami 10]

You have to be careful, a vendor can easily infiltrate a forum. registering for membership requires no proof of age, no credit card, Vendor know how to plant the seeds, they are not that stupid.

 

Yes, that is true, and it happens quite often...but I really do not believe that this was the case.