My turn in the chair - Ego,Validation and bad behaviour

[BlowFish 10]

Well I thought Id get in quick and jump into the Docs chair.

 

I think I am reasonably far along the path of a trader but there are a few things I would like to improve.

 

The main one is closing trades before they can work properly. Sometimes I might hesitate entering but that is rarer. Managing trades would be the umberella term. I think this is routed in fear - fear of being wrong probably more than fear of loseing capital on the trade. I think this is in part due to trying to seek some sort of validation in the market. I absolutely know I could do much better (though I am profitable). This is efecting my sense of self worth despite everything being pretty lined up in the rest of my life. Its frustrating to know the very subconcious things that think they are helping are the only obstacles to a job well done. (And really a job well done is more of a motivator than the $$).

 

When I worked I was respected (and renumerated) for my views and my knowledge. Of course the market dosent give a cr*p about my views or knowledge - not a great background for a trader! I guess this is something to do with it and is rooted in the ego needing stroking. Yeah yeah I know if I executed flawlessly then I would actually deserve a pat on the back.

 

The problem manfests itself almost completely subconciously...it sudenlly grabs the reins and clicks to close. Its almost like I conciously black out for a moment. I am sure 'it' thinks its trying to protect me but of course we all know thats not the case. I am trying enormously hard to confront this and have been doing better staying 'concious' for longer.

 

I trade pretty short time frames as ths minimises the effect of the malaise. I'd actually like to pick time frame by preference rather than have it dictated by a trading fault!!

 

Anyway I hope that this is of interest to you and other potential patients. I look forward to your thoughts.

 

Cheers.

Nick

[Guest cooter]

I'd love to hear the Doc's views on your issues. I have a few thoughts I'd like to share with you, in the meanwhile.

 

Since I believe that a person's choice of words has meaning to them, I think what you've written contains some very specific clues as to your current mindset.

 

When I worked I was respected (and renumerated) for my views and my knowledge.

Nick

 

This sentence is the key to understanding your issues, far as I'm concerned.

 

You wrote "When I worked".

 

Well, what exactly is it that you are doing now? If it's not work - a full-time endeavour - what is it for you? A part-time hobby?

 

I don't think that you've got your head fully wrapped around what you are doing yet.

 

And I don't believe for a moment that it was a subconscious, unintentional slip either. You have been taught and conditioned throughout your life to get an j-o-b and work for someone else for a living.

 

Your choice of words affirms your current mindset. Until you are ready to truly accept that you are indeed working for a living as a trader, you won't achieve the success that you feel you are entitled to.

 

And, let me be clear here. You are entitled to nothing. The markets don't owe you a damn thing, as you acknowledge.

 

You are also aware that in your previous career, hard work led to success and respect. You must do nothing else but repeat the same work ethic in this field. Anything less will lead to abject failure.

 

That's my two ticks from the sidelines for you. I'm looking forward to hearing what the Doc has to add here.

 

Hope this helps.

[rolange 10]

 

The problem manfests itself almost completely subconciously...it sudenlly grabs the reins and clicks to close. Its almost like I conciously black out for a moment.

Cheers.

Nick

 

There is now a large industry feeding off the anxieties of traders and some charge considerable fees for a days shrinkage.

 

What you are experiencing is a common symptom of high anxiety in a stressful situation.

 

I used to get it in golf a lot especially when playing in club competitions - it happened at the top of the swing - something took over and made me either swipe at the ball resulting in a horrible slice or hold onto the club and then duffing the shot.

 

Solving this problem actually also helped me with a similar trading problem not unlike yours. There are two factors - one is the desire for total control through fear of failure and the other is the inability to get into what sportsmen and Mark Douglas call the Zone.

 

The practise swing and paper trade always seem so easy yet the real thing is sometimes a totally different animal. Mainly I believe is that when we are trading live and hitting a golf shot under pressure our attention is on the outcome and all the possible negatives. This in turn causes emotions to run high producing the fight or flight response and thus clouds our judgement.

 

So is there a solution apart from the obvious thing of getting into the Zone, being in the NOW, removing our ego (the self 1) from the activity?

 

Realising that to err is to be human and luck, confidence, and success are achieved by practise and discipline.

 

The other secret that I can share with you that a little brainwashing/reconditioning (now called NLP) can go a long way and for 44 USD and a little desire and effort you can tailor make your own NLP program. I have tried most of the software available and this is the best IMO. Be careful of the strobe lighting option, I find this OTT. The audio is enough for me.

 

I highly recommend you write your own scripts.

 

Physician heal thyself.

 

http://www.transparentcorp.com/products/np/index.php

[BlowFish 10]

Great catch Cooter. Thank you. I do think your interpretation may be a wee bit off but great observation. (I am not sure yet I haven't thought about it enough).

 

I think it is at least partly do to with the 'work ethic' you get as a youngster. You know the whole 'renumeration is commensurate with the time and effort you put in' thing. I wonder if deep down I still feel guilt that the days business is over in an hour or two (or can be)?? Actually I often trade the Europe open. 1.00pm gmt news (if there is any) US open and sometimes the US afternoon session. Its lucky that Asia doesn't really open until gone midnight my time or I'd probably trade that. I think I trade long hours because I love watching the markets unfold. However, It is almost certainly also because I feel a little guilty that I am not working hard enough (sometimes at least).

 

I do certainly work hard, in the past way too hard. Sometimes (in the past) 18 hours a day seven days a week for a months at a time. I realise now I was working hard but not smart. Certainly not all bad as I have built up a good amount of knowledge about the markets and how they work. Also a set of beliefs that I sincerely think are based on fundamental truths. You certainly reach a point where more market knowledge isn't going to help you as a trader but I still enjoy spending time learning that stuff.

 

Recently my energy is more directed at 'self' and my working hours are much more reasonable too! (see above for details) One thing is for sure I am passionate about trading. I guess I am trying to say I am not lazy or undereducated when it comes to trading.

 

I am still not sure why I wrote the phrase you picked up on like that. Whenever friends and family call I will tell them I'm working but at the same time it sometimes does not always feel like work. I could say that it is more than work its a vocation a passion even, but people might gag on there breakfirst cereal if I did that.

 

And a final thought. Maybe I'm a little embarrassed to refer to myself as a trader. I know I am not doing as well as I should at the thing I am passionate about, the thing I have poured blood sweat and tears into. The thing I have worked so hard at. And this neatly links back into the thrust of my original post.

 

Cheers.

[torero 10]

There is now a large industry feeding off the anxieties of traders and some charge considerable fees for a days shrinkage.

 

What you are experiencing is a common symptom of high anxiety in a stressful situation.

 

I used to get it in golf a lot especially when playing in club competitions - it happened at the top of the swing - something took over and made me either swipe at the ball resulting in a horrible slice or hold onto the club and then duffing the shot.

 

Solving this problem actually also helped me with a similar trading problem not unlike yours. There are two factors - one is the desire for total control through fear of failure and the other is the inability to get into what sportsmen and Mark Douglas call the Zone.

 

The practise swing and paper trade always seem so easy yet the real thing is sometimes a totally different animal. Mainly I believe is that when we are trading live and hitting a golf shot under pressure our attention is on the outcome and all the possible negatives. This in turn causes emotions to run high producing the fight or flight response and thus clouds our judgement.

 

So is there a solution apart from the obvious thing of getting into the Zone, being in the NOW, removing our ego (the self 1) from the activity?

 

Realising that to err is to be human and luck, confidence, and success are achieved by practise and discipline.

 

The other secret that I can share with you that a little brainwashing/reconditioning (now called NLP) can go a long way and for 44 USD and a little desire and effort you can tailor make your own NLP program. I have tried most of the software available and this is the best IMO. Be careful of the strobe lighting option, I find this OTT. The audio is enough for me.

 

I highly recommend you write your own scripts.

 

Physician heal thyself.

 

Neuro-Programmer 2 Home - Self-Programming with Brainwave optimization and Psychological techniques (Hypnosis, NLP, etc)

 

Thanks for the site. This looks like something I've been looking for to get into a state or zone to get me further in concentration and focus. Thanks.

[BlowFish 10]

Thanks for the link Rolange (is that an anagram it sort of resound in my head as Lo Range and no I am not oriental).

 

I think Ego is a pretty huge chunk of it. That and of course fear (which seems like a huge umbrella emotion for most trader ailments).

 

Cheers,

[rolange 10]

Thanks for the link Rolange (is that an anagram it sort of resound in my head as Lo Range and no I am not oriental).

 

I think Ego is a pretty huge chunk of it. That and of course fear (which seems like a huge umbrella emotion for most trader ailments).

 

Cheers,

 

Isn't Blowfish a favourite Japanese dish?

 

Hey without fear we wouldn't last long.

 

Without ego we would be androids or buddhist monks perhaps.

 

There is too much emphasis on everything that's (or may be) wrong with us these days. The we are told we can be fixed with this or that. The cost of new drugs has crippled the NHS.

 

By 2020 60% of illness in the EU will be 'stress related.'

 

A sick society or are sickness and fear, the price we pay for for capitalism?

 

Good for the economy. People spend more when they are afraid.

 

We are but human - not machines. I always know when to stay away from the trade desk now.

 

Sometimes you can listen to tapes, do yoga, meditation and still not be 'in the zone.' It's part of life.

 

After a couple of losers I go to the simulator and if this is unsuccessful then I shut down and come back another time.

 

The NLP software helped me indirectly insofar as it helped understand the human condition a little further.

[TheBramble 10]

Save yourselves a lot of wasted time, money, effort and aggravation - avoid NLP for trading related 'issues'.

 

NLP is not something you use 'just' for this or that - it is, totally, not just specifically. Software soundtracks and ooh-ahh visuals and all the other hyped up crap based on soemebody's wet dream of a great idea that it can be pressed into service to focus on your weak points and made to return a dividend immediately, with little to no effort on your part is a complete canard and an insult to your intelligence. If you fall for it, you deserve it.

 

Don't be duped.

 

There is no substitute for trading knowledge and experience and no airy-fairy flakey-fairy BS is going to make up for what you don't know - about you - or about the markets.

 

You have time spare? You have money spare? Invest in your education in the markets - not some one-size-fits-all new-age uber-panacea that will only delay your development.

[thetradingdoctor 10]

Apologies for not posting more, but I have been dealing with a family situation.

 

I welcome all comments, the good, the bad and the ugly, as they make me a better trader and a better person.

 

There appears to be a lot of anger in some people here, and I can only say that my heart goes out to you for your suffering. I wonder how that anger works in your trading? Does it motivate you? Does it inhibit you? What do you do with your anger when you are not flinging it at someone else? Perhaps you turn it inward to habits which are somewhat self-destructive? I don't know the answer to this. I do know, that in the early stages of learning to trade I was very angry. I did nothing but lose money for three years. All of my education and training outside of the markets did not help me because I was trying to apply the rules of success in life to success in the markets. It was only when I was able to take a really good look at myself, realize that I was not perfect and that I had to make my own rules that I started to make money. It was the most brutal and challenging thing I have ever done in my life.

 

For those of you who think that the inner game of trading is just mumbo jumble, I say good for you! If you are able to trade without mastering the way that you manage your emotions, you are better than 99% of the people out there trading today. I can only share with you what I have learned and you willl either listen to me or reject me and call me names. There is nothing I can do about that, as I have no control over what you say, do or think.

 

I do know this. Trading is a brutal game. Those who are struggling with it tend to be the most angry and frustrated. As you progress through the stages of trading competence, you do reach a point where you change internally. You become in humility and gratitutude for what you receive from the markets. You become elevated mentally, emotionally and spiritually. This has been my path and I would like to think that it is the path of everyone, but I am not so sure about that.

 

So, if you hurl invectives at me, I will return them with love and kindess. I have nothing to prove to anyone. I have already proven to myself and, in the end, that is all that matters.

 

Thanks to each of you for your great posts!

 

Doctor Janice

[Guest cooter]

Apologies for not posting more, but I have been dealing with a family situation.

 

I welcome all comments, the good, the bad and the ugly, as they make me a better trader and a better person.

 

There appears to be a lot of anger in some people here, and I can only say that my heart goes out to you for your suffering. I wonder how that anger works in your trading? Does it motivate you? Does it inhibit you? What do you do with your anger when you are not flinging it at someone else? Perhaps you turn it inward to habits which are somewhat self-destructive? I don't know the answer to this. I do know, that in the early stages of learning to trade I was very angry. I did nothing but lose money for three years. All of my education and training outside of the markets did not help me because I was trying to apply the rules of success in life to success in the markets. It was only when I was able to take a really good look at myself, realize that I was not perfect and that I had to make my own rules that I started to make money. It was the most brutal and challenging thing I have ever done in my life.

 

For those of you who think that the inner game of trading is just mumbo jumble, I say good for you! If you are able to trade without mastering the way that you manage your emotions, you are better than 99% of the people out there trading today. I can only share with you what I have learned and you willl either listen to me or reject me and call me names. There is nothing I can do about that, as I have no control over what you say, do or think.

 

I do know this. Trading is a brutal game. Those who are struggling with it tend to be the most angry and frustrated. As you progress through the stages of trading competence, you do reach a point where you change internally. You become in humility and gratitutude for what you receive from the markets. You become elevated mentally, emotionally and spiritually. This has been my path and I would like to think that it is the path of everyone, but I am not so sure about that.

 

So, if you hurl invectives at me, I will return them with love and kindess. I have nothing to prove to anyone. I have already proven to myself and, in the end, that is all that matters.

 

Thanks to each of you for your great posts!

 

Doctor Janice

 

Well said, Doc.

 

Now if you could take the time when your personal issues are resolved to join us in an ongoing dialog in our community of traders helping traders, we'd be quite greatful.

[walterw 10]

Great doc... great human bean, hope you do ok on personal issues... thanks for great input... cheers Walter.

[rock 10]

become in humility and gratitutude for what you receive from the markets. You become elevated mentally, emotionally and spiritually.

Right on.

 

If I'm not in a solid mental state,I will probably lose money.

The feeling of a lesser self worth and the fear of failure creeps in and takes over my emotions. One negative leads to another negative and I turn into a mindless mouse clicking zombie.

 

Be Zen. heehee

[BlowFish 10]

Doc,

 

I wrote this post just after you had joined here. Seemed like a couple of people hijacked the thread to ask about your status here. The original post got somewhat forgotten. James' recent post over in trading psychology reminded me of this thread. I wondered if you had a moment if you might comment on my malaise I would be very greatful as it has been hampering my trading for what seems like an eternity.

 

Cheers.

[Guest cooter]

Doc,

 

I wrote this post just after you had joined here. Seemed like a couple of people hijacked the thread to ask about your status here. The original post got somewhat forgotten. James' recent post over in trading psychology reminded me of this thread. I wondered if you had a moment if you might comment on my malaise I would be very greatful as it has been hampering my trading for what seems like an eternity.

 

Cheers.

 

I don't see anything in this particular thread that was hijacked. Perhaps you'd care to elaborate?

 

[BlowFish 10]

Hi Cooter,

 

Perhaps the offending post was sniped or perhaps it was in another thread and I was imagining it all...stranger things have happened.

 

In any case the Docs reply is a view of why 'the inner game of trading' is important (probably in response to thebramble) rather than about fear, ego and validation. I would really be very grateful of her views on those issues.

 

Personally I think the fear of failure is a key issue often mis-identified (as fear of loss for example). This is especially true amongst people who have already been 'succesful' at some other profession. For them money is less (not) an issue but some sort of 'professional validation' is.

 

Cheers.

[thetradingdoctor 10]

HI Blowfish and All,

 

I may have missed something here, so please step up and fill me in if I have?

 

The inner game of trading IS about ego, validation, fear and every other aspect of mind and brain.

 

I would be grateful if you would repeat the question, so that I can give a better answer?

 

Please note that everything you do, feel, think, and say arises from your brain. The inner game of trading is, perhaps, what people are relating to when they talk about tools for centering, meditation, zen, yoga etc. I think there are a bunch of "Inner Game" books, but I have not read any of them.

 

Now that I have likely confused everyone ( including myself) as to where we are on this thread---please be a sweetheart and restate the question?

 

THANKS

 

Doctor Janice