Seeking Mentorship

[hantt 10]

Greetings everyone, my name is Qiao. Currently 26 years old, working in the airline industry as a Crew Scheduler. My Job is considered entry level but is fairly technical (which I enjoy). I am not very good at socializing or networking, and being technically good at something only gets you so far in a corporate environment. I don't mind hard work, but I do want my wage to reflect the effort I put in( be it less than what I make or more). Trading seems to reflect this mentality of only getting what you put in. By becoming a member of this forum I hope to learn not only the technical skillsets of trader, but also the mindset and lifestyle of an active trader. I wish to seek mentorship in any fashion possible, be it a seasoned trader or the collective knowledge of the boards. Maybe someday I can look back at this post and pass down lessons of my own.

 

 

 

Thank you for reading.

[zdo 20]

Hi hantt

Welcome.

 

Let me be blunt. Most who enter this lab don’t know if they are an experimenter or a lab rat. And, sadly, there is a running game to delay you finding out. The purpose of this msg is to help you find out quickly.

 

I’m responding to you in part because I can understand to some degree how “I am not very good at socializing or networking, and being technically good at something only gets you so far in a corporate environment.” could make trading look attractive to you.

 

Preface1 (not at the top ?  ) It may be easy to infer that extreme extremes are required from much of what follows about traits and attitudes. Extreme extremes are not required. However, you do need to be pretty far out on the ‘tails’ ... being in the 1st and 2nd deviations won’t cut it...

Preface2 (from in the middle ?  ) --- Warning: The’ voice of trading’ will disagree with and most likely attempt to strike down what I’m going to say - maybe vehemently. Instead they will provide a narrative embedded in an established trading education psy-op that is sustained and supported by a trail of many reasonable, well meaning ‘useful idiots’. For you, they may attempt to significantly soften what follows. You can take solace there with them. Or - you can get real.

Re

I don't mind hard work, but I do want my wage to reflect the effort I put in( be it less than what I make or more).

As long as your orientation remains rooted in ‘production work’ your results will be stunted at best. Examine your own ‘structures’ beneath your use of words like “wage” and “effort” etc. etc You didn’t utilize those words accidentally.

Trading is NOT production work. Trading is NOT service work. Trading is performance work.* Trading is “predator vs predator” zdo... ie direct competition. ie in actual trades there is no consideration for what’s best for or the ‘safety’ of others or the group/company. One can master every trading technique known to man and invent a few more, but if the prominence of performance work is not rooted all the way down to your hind brains, and limbed throughout your ‘limbic system ’and flowering in your outer cortexes, you and your money are likely just fodder contributing to the winners. Ie Your unconscious has got to be joyfully automated to be takin’ more than you need... else you’re... a lab rat... If this in not in your true nature, then you and your equity are part of an experiment!

hantt, if this in not in your true nature, see that little hole in the wall ! ? Get out while you can! Take a similar exploration of investing (in ventures where you have material participation), and gradually building a portfolio as prudently and balanced as you can... and stay away from trading.

 

Trading seems to reflect this mentality of only getting what you put in.

Please think again. Forgive my rawness... but that is illusion. Trading results rarely “reflect” this mentality of only getting what you put in at all... and certainly never consistently . With any single trade, (or with any series of trades, or with trading in general, ) one can do almost no work and reap huge rewards OR one can do incredible amounts of ‘extra effort’ and good work and still be a net loser. The two are not correlated. Period.

 

If you “don't mind hard work”, you will have to be willing and able to, if needed, put equal amount of time and work into ‘know thyself’ type stuff as into learning basics and techniques... and, btw, all that 'work' combined may require much more than ’40 hour’ weeks. Everyone encounters different challenges in their development as traders and for some the ‘discrepancies’ of where they are and where they need to be will be seen to be too wide to make it worth staying with the discomfort of the discrepancies.

Shift “don't mind hard work” toward a more general ‘self competitive whatever it takes attitude’... even though it may require much more OR much less ‘effort’ than you ever imagined... paradoxically striving to become non striving etc etc... to learn how to recover super quickly from victories and defeats, wins and losses, rights and wrongs, lucks and no lucks...etc etc

etc etc

...

Traps are many! Here’s one. The ‘voice of trading’ will always try to ease you into the game. From a variety of (btw - real, not ‘online’/ virtual) perspectives I have been involved in (or had privileged access to) the development of a sample of 700 + traders and I can categorically tell you from that experience - if you have to be eased into this game ( via sim trading, etc etc etc) your probs of making it are very low. NOTE!: This is a test everyone takes. It is predictive of success or failure. Few realize they are even taking it or took it.

 

Upon coming to this game you can locate two cusps. The first cusp is on the transition from looser to surviving. The ‘voice of trading’ serves at this cusp. The second cusp is shifting from surviving to thriving. Based on that sample of developing traders I’ve been exposed to, the ones who start by jumping to the 2nd cusp have a better chance. (However, that’s no guarantee of making it ). I surmise the subjects of all the ‘trading wizards’ books (and the profiles Analyst75 has been posting,etc) also ‘start’ themselves at the 2nd cusp... by simply ‘saying so’! - basically. When you first trade, you and you alone place yourself at one of the two cusps. Trading is that kind of game. Performance work is that kind of work. So, Jump to your cusp. Find out quickly... time is too limited to dilly dally... the greats find out if they are greats at the beginning! They KNOW! - even if they fail at the beginning!!!!!!!!

 

Again - If you are put off by this msg you can always run back to the crowd where the ‘voice of trading’ will be waiting to ‘help’ you. I’d say - if you are put off by this msg I’d suggest you get out the game now.

 

Enjoyed spending ‘lunch’ with you. Let’s do it again sometime.

 

Zdo

 

** To be more accurate - All work is actually a combination of all three types of work - production, service, and performance- and ‘normal’ work typically includes more balanced proportion of all three types of work . Point is - Trading is at an extreme - with miniscule, negligible proportions of production and service work. Plus, the performance work itself is not quite normal either... posturing will get you nowhere... and in all performance work, your weaknesses will be revealed ... but in trading performance work they are only revealed to yourself... etc etc.

[jpennybags 11]

I am loathe to think of myself as "the voice of trading"... an unavoidable quagmire... best to keep your mouth closed and don't breathe too deeply.

 

Truth of the matter is, that it probably won't make a difference whether you trade "live", trade "sim", or just sit and watch (though, I would prefer the last option, as one can learn a great deal by being observant and thinking like a criminal... just relax about punching that buy / sell button).

 

Chances are this is not going to be the grand career move that you have envisioned. Trading is not the end-all-be-all, and working for "the man" is not a bad gig. So many fail at this. It is a process that either you get through or you don't... most don't.

 

So... do what you want, it makes no difference to "me", or the "voice of trading"...

[michael av 10]

The first reply to your post had a lot of usual and experienced trader wisdom. While they spent a lot of effort telling you how challenging trading can be and that failure rates are high, it failed to mention that you should not be swayed by statistics. Knowledge of statistics creates failures in and of itself. Because the thought of a lot of others failing at something immediately places doubt in your mind. And the only difference between those who succeed and those who fail is their attitude which is a direct result of their thoughts. Yes you need training, knowledge and skill but DO NOT BE SWAYED BY OTHERS SUCCESS OR FAILURE...YOUR SUCCESS IS SOLELY DEPENDENT ON YOU!

 

And yes, there is a lot of self-work that needs to be addressed. A couple of examples are 1) in most of our lives we make things happen but In trading, we wait for things to happen and then make decisions. And based on the time frames, some of those decisions may have to be made extremely fast.2) The Greatest Samurai of all times, Musashi, always won because he always stepped into the kill zone. Musashi was willing to die in every dual. When you are not afraid to die, you can't be beaten. In trading, you must be willing to die in every trade and if you are, you wont have the fear of loss. And, if you have the skill and knowledge and you are not afraid to die...you will win! If you are afraid to lose, it does not matter how much skill and knowledge you have. And no one else's statistics matter but yours...Good luck and if this is your dream don't let anyone dissuade you.

[zdo 20]

We should move this material to a different thread for the general audience. hantt may be long gone...

 

jpenny, I am loathe to think of you as "the voice of trading" too...  but then you fall in line with

“Truth of the matter is, that it probably won't make a difference whether you trade "live", trade "sim", or just sit and watch.” ...

Comments: Yes - which one a beginning trader does won’t cause success. But, which one a beginning trader does is an indicator of whether s/he can make it through the ‘early years’ ... much like higher mcat test scores indicate higher probs of making it through med school.

Sad, but it appears you ‘normals’ simply cannot fathom this. Ya’ll are driven by imagination of what the 'other' is like instead of real experience. So, all the industry driven ‘programming psyop’ continues.

In part I’m simply saying beginning traders can find out much quicker than most do whether this game is for them or not. But much more importantly ----- beneath these bhvrs of which one you do first / how you start are crucial inner attitudes and virtues. Which one you do is actually an expression of those... and these are the factors that will determine whether or not you “Find your own way!” zdo. Those who spontaneously 'get real' out the gate have an 'undocumented' edge... a few noobs may be able to learn from this... 'voice of trading' bs notwithstanding...

 

micheal av, I agree with you about not being influenced and inhibited by the ‘statistics’. Over the years, I have posted quite a bit about ‘being a sample of one’ and ultimately was getting at the same with “When you first trade, you and you alone place yourself at one of the two cusps.”

I do advise, however, that beginners look at these ‘statistics’ of high failure rates and at least conclude “I should avoid what the crowd is doing big time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. While I'm at it, I should probably avoid big time what the 'voice of trading' memes are telling me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!."

Sad, but it appears ‘normals’ simply cannot fathom that either

 

“It is just as difficult and dangerous to try to free a people who want to live in slavery as it is to try to enslave a people who want to live in freedom.” ~Niccolo Machiavelli

 

//

 

"Markets are designed to allow individuals to look after their private needs and to pursue profit. It's really a great invention and I wouldn't under-estimate the value of that, but they're not designed to take care of social needs...

....

Markets are constantly in a state of uncertainty and flux and money is made by discounting the obvious and betting on the unexpected... " ~ George Soros

 

//

 

 

//

 

“You do not believe. You only believe that you believe.” –Samuel Coleridge

“Belief is a wound that knowledge heals.” –Ursula K. Le Guin

[hantt 10]

Not gone, all my post needs to be checked off by a mod so there is a lag in my response

[jpennybags 11]

jpenny, I am loathe to think of you as "the voice of trading" too...  but then you fall in line with

“Truth of the matter is, that it probably won't make a difference whether you trade "live", trade "sim", or just sit and watch.” ...

Comments: Yes - which one a beginning trader does won’t cause success. But, which one a beginning trader does is an indicator of whether s/he can make it through the ‘early years’ ... much like higher mcat test scores indicate higher probs of making it through med school.

 

Alright... I must concede your point (so far...up to a point, but I'll need to hear more). I was raised a feral child... the market was my wolf pack. I traded "live" from the start...

 

I doubt that this had much to do with my eventual success, but possibly it did. In all honesty, I could not point to any one thing that turned it for me. It was a combination of things to be sure (or, at least that is my perception). There is one thing that can be said for trading "live": "you are stripped bare naked, and all is exposed". There is a certain "get real" tenure that can be gained through that.

 

That said...

 

Would you explain further your theory as to why this deviance from the norm occurs in those that choose to begin trading "live" from the start? Seems to me that they are over anxious knuckle heads (see my own admission from above). I really can't believe that I'm playing your "straight man" here, but it has been such a long time since there has been an interesting discussion... I'm willing...

[hantt 10]

Mods must be on vacation still can't post....

[zdo 20]

jpmonybags,

re:

Would you explain further your theory ... ?

 

When I have a theory I’ve really settled on, I’ll be glad to let ya’ll know. I’m going on my own ‘facts’ - observation of hundreds of beginning traders - mostly accounts in the brokerage business, also a sizeable percentage of ‘trading buddies’ and associates,... and :shame: even some seminar 'victims' . Most of these encounters occurred before the internet - certainly before social media - which makes for a different quality of relating and ‘disclosure’ I’ve found... Also, I have now mentored 24 traders from whom I compiled ‘history’/profiles. When they started with me were at the 2nd cusp. ie almost all where surviving / inconsistently profitable, almost all had around 5 years experience already... (Generally, they had obvious blocks to flow and were amenable to my approach - but that’s another topic.)

Of all those samples, the ones who got real at the beginning grouped heavily with those who made it and those who paper traded (and back tested, etc) grouped heavily with those who were ‘loosers’

 

I was raised a feral child... the market was my wolf pack. I traded "live" from the start...

There’s something those who spontaneously 'get real' at the beginning get at an unconscious level about life (and maybe trading) ( ... that the voice of trading ‘thinks’ sim will get it for them and it won’t !!! .) I have some ideas but don’t have time today to dig into it even with my usual hafass, obscure descriptions...

 

I doubt that this had much to do with my eventual success, but possibly it did. In all honesty, I could not point to any one thing that turned it for me. It was a combination of things to be sure (or, at least that is my perception). There is one thing that can be said for trading "live": "you are stripped bare naked, and all is exposed". There is a certain "get real" tenure that can be gained through that.

I have never associated an easy/easier road for those who ‘get real’ out the gate. “ over anxious knuckle heads” :rofl: is just one of the serial challenges they encounter...

[jpennybags 11]

You know (zdo… mi amigo), there was a time when this thread would have stacked 4 pages of opinion by now; so much for getting a discussion going. I notice that “hantt” has returned… sorry to have jacked your thread, but possibly there is some useful insight to be had. I think the discussion has about ended.

 

From past conversations with zdo… if we are in disagreement it's only by degrees. I would defer to his experience over my own, because he has a much broader scope to draw from (I am a sampling of one, and all I have to go from is my own experience). I had not heard before, his explanation as to why he insists (encourages) that new traders trade from a “live” account. I understand better now why he's drawn this conclusion.

 

In the past, when I have advised new traders to trade “sim”, it has been advice drawn from my own experience… my own painful experience. The advice is “don't do what I did”. There have also been times that I offered that advice, because after having a conversation with them, it becomes obvious that they are under capitalized, and trading with money they can't afford to lose. And again, there have been times, after having this conversation, it becomes obvious that they don't have “the right stuff”... and what do you do with that… it's just more socially comfortable to direct them somewhere that they will do the least damage. So, “hantt” you are going to get some advice from folks that you are going to have to put into your own context of experience, and choose your own direction. It's a slog that everyone who visits these forums has to go through.

 

As to the subject “to sim or not to sim”: I think a blanket statement is not that helpful. If one wants to trend trade, swing trade, or some other such method that utilizes longer time frames my opinion is that simulation is worthless (this where I started). If you choose to trade the shorter time frames (where I am now), simulation has it's place (up to a point). The desired outcome is to go “live” as quickly as possible in any regard. There is a reason for this… the easiest thing to do when trading “live” is to not take a trade, in simulation this is the hardest thing. For myself, I have always had the ability to trade simulation as if it were “live”. My results don't vary all that much… I'm bit more aggressive in simulation, but only slightly. If you can't trade simulation in this manner, then I think it probably does more harm than good. For me it has been a useful development tool, for others it may not be.

 

Where I am now… I use simulation every day to review things I may have done differently. I trade simulation on Monday mornings (before the open), just to shake off the rust from the weekend. I think “sim” can be your friend, just don't make it your best friend… your best friend is the truth.

[zdo 20]

hey guys ... been out on a 11 day 'easter weekend' ...

 

As to the subject “to sim or not to sim”: I think a blanket statement is not that helpful. If one wants to trend trade, swing trade, or some other such method that utilizes longer time frames my opinion is that simulation is worthless (this where I started). If you choose to trade the shorter time frames (where I am now), simulation has it's place (up to a point).

 

jpenny, you astutely noted that not all methods are equally enhanced by simn. re your 'trending trading' example, the closer you get to true trend trading the more this is true. For these types of systems your nature needs to be one ready for long waiting ... more often than not while in drawdown... and also for long waiting when in the green. Trend Traders need sim training for that like they need another fkn hole in their head... (btw this is related to my theories about 'getting real... which I hope to have time to explain a little bit... all the while acknowledging it won't be very useful generally because each sentence deserves about 14 paragraphs ... thankfully my audience is very tiny)

 

Basically, the more factors considered in a trade decision, the more ‘simn’ you need. Certainly, the more switching between system or method types you do the more ‘simn’ you need to do.

 

Also, not all methods are equally enhanced by training... or practice. some are better back tested instead of ‘simn’.

 

:haha: but re:

 

The desired outcome is to go “live” as quickly as possible in any regard.

 

I haven’t discussed this yet in this thread but, paradoxically, the desired outcome for traders is to go “sim” as quickly as possible. Will get into this - ie structured practice (and timeframes, etc.) and my 'optimal sequencing' of trader development as time permits...

 

I still think we need to 'repost' this conversation into a different thread... Haintt, we have SO-O-O hijacked your freakn thread !

[jpennybags 11]

Well... welcome back zdo.

 

zdo: If you would like to expound further... I'm all ears. Possibly though, we should leave the continuation of this conversation to "hantt" (whose thread we jacked). I kinda have a feeling that it would just be you and I "blathering" on... to no avail.

 

hantt: If you would like to hear more... start another thread... "Simulation. What is it good for?".

 

Or some such thing...

[aimhi 10]

Greetings everyone, my name is Qiao. Currently 26 years old, working in the airline industry as a Crew Scheduler. My Job is considered entry level but is fairly technical (which I enjoy). I am not very good at socializing or networking, and being technically good at something only gets you so far in a corporate environment. I don't mind hard work, but I do want my wage to reflect the effort I put in( be it less than what I make or more). Trading seems to reflect this mentality of only getting what you put in. By becoming a member of this forum I hope to learn not only the technical skillsets of trader, but also the mindset and lifestyle of an active trader. I wish to seek mentorship in any fashion possible, be it a seasoned trader or the collective knowledge of the boards. Maybe someday I can look back at this post and pass down lessons of my own.

 

 

 

Thank you for reading.

 

Hi hantt, I would say that if you are looking for trading then it might be a good decision however trading is easy but you have to learn how to earn money through trading. You can continue doing your primary job and start trading as your part time business or just a hobby. Open demo account with any decent broker and start trading it, sooner you will get enough hands on understanding the market and when you will become good at earning money, go to live trading but start with small amounts and Good Luck!

[zdo 20]

Hi hantt, I would say that if you are looking for trading then it might be a good decision however trading is easy but you have to learn how to earn money through trading. You can continue doing your primary job and start trading as your part time business or just a hobby. Open demo account with any decent broker and start trading it, sooner you will get enough hands on understanding the market and when you will become good at earning money, go to live trading but start with small amounts and Good Luck!

 

thank you aimhi

that is one of the best 'voice of trading' / first cusp posts I have ever seen

... but, in my experience, it is advice that never even passes into the minds of those truly aim(ing)hi

have a nice life

[zdo 20]

Everybody has a voice in their head that keeps them out of trouble most of the time. In trading that voice in your head is what gets you into trouble most of the time.

...

 

[/b]

 

Omg - fkn mitsu is back in the house. Where tf you been?

Glad to see you back. I'm not around much... starting June holiday early again this year...

 

Btw Re: “voice in their head” Mits, that’s not the voice I was talking about. The ‘voice of trading’ is not a voice in the head of an individual. Trading industry marketing, the ‘trading education industry’ :snik: , and the volunteer ‘voice of trading’ form a concert / is a borg that spurts propaganda to rookies and the tier of traders at the cusp who are attempting to go from loser to survivor. ... In the population of traders Tier 1 = ~78% loosers, Tier 2 = ~19% survivors Tier 3 = ~ 3% thrivers.

 

Best I rephrase my whole post

Original was ...

thank you aimhi

that is one of the best 'voice of trading' / first cusp posts I have ever seen

... but, in my experience, it is advice that never even passes into the minds of those truly aim(ing)hi

have a nice life

 

Revised version - hopefully a little bit more understandable

thank you aimhi

that is one of the most typical 'voice of trading' / first cusp posts I have ever seen

... but, in my experience, it is advice that those truly aim(ing)hi never even consider or if they do, they immediately dismiss ...

have a nice life

 

... both equally cynical. :rofl:

 

Ps: btw Hantt is likely long gone... he didn’t know it but he wasn’t seeking a mentor.

[jpennybags 11]

Mitsu...

 

Long time no hear... hope you are doing well.

[CrazyCzarina 17]

Many beginners in the market quit trading in the first year, either because they blew their account several times or they didn’t approach the market the right way. That’s why seeking help from a Forex trading mentor can help develop your trading career. A Forex trading mentor should be an experienced trader with the necessary knowledge and know-how to successfully trade the markets. A trading mentor can significantly improve your trading performance. I remember the days when I started to trade, focusing too much on short timeframes and applying a large number of technical indicators which provided contradictory trading signals.

[aimhi 10]

Mentors are still available in the market however they does not come for free as demo account, we also cannot identify which one is legit and which is not.

[CrazyCzarina 17]

Forex Trading is a very risky business and if you are a beginner, you should have a mentor to learn it all.

[aimhi 10]

Also we need to practice a demo account beside learning all those necessary stuff to make sure we are able to apply our skills on real market conditions. Remember forex trading is a very professional market which does not spare any trader's mistake.

[fxeconomist 11]

On 11/8/2021 at 11:27 PM, CrazyCzarina said:

Forex Trading is a very risky business and if you are a beginner, you should have a mentor to learn it all.

It can be risky or it can be safe depending on the money management rules you set. Tight stop loss like 10-20 pips will make your trading quite safe. 

[aimhi 10]

We can reduce our risks by proper money management.

[fxeconomist 11]

On 3/16/2023 at 6:12 PM, aimhi said:

We can reduce our risks by proper money management.

Can you enlighten us which money management rules can increase our odds in trading? Apart from playing with lot size I don't know any...

[aimhi 10]

I always stick what Warren Buffet once said: "protect your capital", so whatever you risk keep in mind that it would be something that you can afford to lose and if you risk you can make some profits out of it. 

[RJo 10]

On 8/13/2023 at 4:47 PM, fxeconomist said:

Can you enlighten us which money management rules can increase our odds in trading? Apart from playing with lot size I don't know any...

I would forget about tinkering with lot sizes in the short-term. I only increase my lot size when it's justified by my growing capital (closed profit). Adjusting lot size on the fly would imply that I somehow know the specific probability of each individual trade succeeding--which I don't. So, I focus on the overall statistical performance of my strategy over every 6 months.

This doesn't require anything clever. As an example, choose a chart structure (15 minute, 1 hour, Renko, range bar, etc.) where price swings are identifiable to your eye. Load a MACD oscillator onto the chart. Note that there are two MACD's floating around online. The "old" MACD uses a weighted EMA in its calculations while the "new" MACD uses a regular MACD in its calculations. If you're using the old one, focus on the main line crossing the signal line and ignore the zero level. If you're using the new one, focus on the main line crossing the zero level and ignore the signal line. These are your entries.

Your dynamic exit target is the opposite crossover of whichever MACD lines you're using. Now for the most challenging part... stopouts. You need to determine the number of pips/points/ticks at which price traveled against your entry and did not return in favor of your entry for all trades. These stopout statistics can be collected with pen and paper, which I have arduously done in the past. This is much easier if you can code, backtest, and auto-optimize the stop level.

The idea is that your dynamic takeprofit is theoretically infinite, and your stop is fixed at a level that is statistically favorable to you.

Although this isn't really "money managment," it certainly manages your money.