The Professional Trader's Edge

[Guest OILFXPRO]

Bank foreign exchange traders have an edge , their edge is an orderflow list of future demand , i.e letters of credit and pending customer orders at specified prices from their customers and a spread edge

 

Investment bank traders have an edge , their edge is an orderflow list of future demand from assets under management , pending customer orders at specified prices from their customers and instituitional demand criteria and orderflow list.

 

The private trader's edge is a combination of system edge , mental edge ,execution edge , skills edge and knowledge edge

 

The system provides an edge with a 70 to 80 % probability of sucess , these include entry ,exits and selection of trades.

 

The mental edge is the mindset to execute the statistical edge correctly.The human brain is wired to destroy the statistical edge ,this is the main reasons why most traders will turn a winning strategy into a losing strategy , on live accounts.Give a wining system to 100 traders and 99 percent will lose due to impatience , lack of discipline , greed , fear , emotions. ,biases , lack of certainty. , inability to trade with uncertainty ,revenge trades , monkey brain responses , stress responses , lack of knowledge experience and a dozen other phsychological reasons .The mental edge is the most important edge.Of the types of edge , the mental is the more important and expensive . Holding to losing positions costs measurable sums of actual capital, but it costs immeasurable sums of mental capital.

 

Execution edge is present in the trader's ability to implent a winning strategy , some traders can , others can not do this in real time.This can only be done after the four other edges are present .

 

The skills edge seprates winners from losers , technical anylysis alone is not on it's own adequate to be succesful .Technical anylysis is just a road map , it is the racing driver and vehicle that have the ede , not the map of a grand prix circuit.Some trades can read charts like a professional , others mess up in reading charts and make mistakes .A load of traders make pips , but they lose it all every week due to mistakes and lack the necessary competence and skills.

 

The knowledge edge separates amateurs from the professionals .Knowledge of instrument behaviour , it's price drivers and correlated instruments increases your edge.The knowledge when to pass on trade set ups and which ones to take increases the edge.

 

The professional's edge is present before he comes to the trading desk .

[Guest OILFXPRO]

The professional understands risks and can identify low risk set ups and high risk set ups.

High risk set ups fail more frequently and have wide stops whereas low risk set ups have good price action confirmation of price intent.

 

Another edge is to identify low risk set ups , the human brain is a poor judge of risk , the trader's with an edge are good judges of risk.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

An example of the failure of execution edge .

 

The system signal was ready and given to the trader to execute , something on the platform

distracted the trader and he entered late by 8 pips , it resulted in a profit of 3.5 pips .The system if executed correctly on time , would have bagged 30 pips.

[tradingwizzard 10]

An example of the failure of execution edge .

 

The system signal was ready and given to the trader to execute , something on the platform

distracted the trader and he entered late by 8 pips , it resulted in a profit of 3.5 pips .The system if executed correctly on time , would have bagged 30 pips.

 

this is crap.....build an EA and it won't be distracted

 

TW

[Guest OILFXPRO]

this is crap.....build an EA and it won't be distracted

 

TW

 

I Use two human beings to process and input trades , they are like Eas. They can handle bucket shop requires that eas can't .Real traders don't use eas.

[UrmaBlume 10]

I Use two human beings to process and input trades , they are like Eas. They can handle bucket shop requires that eas can't .Real traders don't use eas.

 

Even more crap, most of the trade in almost every market is done by automated systems and those systems make more money than all the successful human traders combined.

 

Plainly you are way out of touch with the realities of today's markets and the technologies used by successful operators to trade them.

 

As to bucket shops, haven't you noticed that most of them are gone?

 

Of all the lame BS posted on these forums, yours, not to mention your attitude towards other traders and even vendors, is the lamest.

 

 

UrmaBlume

[SIUYA 11]

I Use two human beings to process and input trades , they are like Eas. They can handle bucket shop requires that eas can't .Real traders don't use eas.

 

see post #3

repeat...loop

 

circular reference warning

[Guest OILFXPRO]

Even more crap, most of the trade in almost every market is done by automated systems and those systems make more money than all the successful human traders combined.

 

Plainly you are way out of touch with the realities of today's markets and the technologies used by successful operators to trade them.

 

As to bucket shops, haven't you noticed that most of them are gone?

 

Of all the lame BS posted on these forums, yours, not to mention your attitude towards other traders and even vendors, is the lamest.

 

 

UrmaBlume

 

No the bucket shops are still here , sponsoring sites and forums and joining in with content manipulation and bashing posters , and aiding other vendors bashing trading posters .I got accounts with fxcm and Alpari and their requotes are like bucket shops , and your stops get hunted and 20 pips slippages.:rofl:

[Guest OILFXPRO]

Professionals also avoid usage of EA in trading .It is not a popular way of trading .If we depend on EA"s cannot develop trading skills in our self. Manual tradig with self analysis is best way of trading.EA are just type of software that work in pre defined instructions.

 

Eas are for cluless traders.

[zupcon 10]

I got accounts with fxcm and Alpari and their requotes are like bucket shops , and your stops get hunted and 20 pips slippages.:rofl:

 

Have you learned NOTHING in the 10 years or so you've been doing this stuff ?

 

Trading with FXCM is a right of passage, most people learn from that experience fairly quickly and either quit or move on. Surely it didnt take you a decade to work out what should be blindingly obvious after a handful ot trades ?

 

Although it pains me to say it, FXCM are a great example of "professionals" trading with an edge.

[UrmaBlume 10]

Professionals also avoid usage of EA in trading .It is not a popular way of trading .If we depend on EA"s cannot develop trading skills in our self. Manual tradig with self analysis is best way of trading.EA are just type of software that work in pre defined instructions.Eas are for cluless traders.

 

What completely escapes this completely "clueless," certainly not a successful trader, is that most of the money that is made in trading most anything today is made by automated trading systems.

 

If the method is precise enough to be taught or expressed it can be programmed.

 

Certainly it is true that most traders do no use automated systems. It is also true that most traders, especially traders like this guy, do not make money. AT the same time it is also true that First, most of trade today is done by automated systems and second most of the money that is made today in trading today is made by automated systems. and third most of the money that is lost in trading is lost by traders who do not use automated systems.

 

I have a labrador who can put those three together and come up with the conclusion that the clueless one is the OP himself.

 

UrmaBlume

[Guest OILFXPRO]

Have you learned NOTHING in the 10 years or so you've been doing this stuff ?

 

Trading with FXCM is a right of passage, most people learn from that experience fairly quickly and either quit or move on. Surely it didnt take you a decade to work out what should be blindingly obvious after a handful ot trades ?

 

Although it pains me to say it, FXCM are a great example of "professionals" trading with an edge.

 

My account with fxcm was closed a year ago , I only use Alpari bucket traders for charts , I do not trade there.

[zupcon 10]

My account with fxcm was closed a year ago , I only use Alpari bucket traders for charts , I do not trade there.

 

Thats a step in the right direction at least.

 

If you continue to make progress at this rate you should have it all figured out by around 2098

[Guest OILFXPRO]

What completely escapes this completely "clueless," certainly not a successful trader, is that most of the money that is made in trading most anything today is made by automated trading systems.

 

If the method is precise enough to be taught or expressed it can be programmed.

 

Certainly it is true that most traders do no use automated systems. It is also true that most traders, especially traders like this guy, do not make money. AT the same time it is also true that First, most of trade today is done by automated systems and second most of the money that is made today in trading today is made by automated systems. and third most of the money that is lost in trading is lost by traders who do not use automated systems.

 

I have a labrador who can put those three together and come up with the conclusion that the clueless one is the OP himself.

 

UrmaBlume

 

 

This post deserves a medal of Vendor posting misinformation on forums.George Soros real trader and billionaire does not use automated programs , nor do any other real traders .............except clueless traders who can not trade themselves.

[Guest OILFXPRO]

Thats a step in the right direction at least.

 

If you continue to make progress at this rate you should have it all figured out by around 2098

 

Everything is working fine and I AM CONSTANTLY BAGGING 80 PIPS A WEEK with extremely low drawdowns , SO IT IS A MATTER OF WEEKS .By April 2 ....the best trader banned by all the forum scammers , makes 10 % a week.:rofl:

[zupcon 10]

Everything is working fine and I AM CONSTANTLY BAGGING 80 PIPS A WEEK with extremely low drawdowns , SO IT IS A MATTER OF WEEKS .By April 2 ....the best trader banned by all the forum scammers , makes 10 % a week.:rofl:

 

cool, your pulling in double what I'm averaging, well done.

 

If its any consolation Ive been banned from most forums too. Thats what happens if you tell the truth. :rofl:

[Guest OILFXPRO]

cool, your pulling in double what I'm averaging, well done.

 

If its any consolation Ive been banned from most forums too. Thats what happens if you tell the truth. :rofl:

 

You should only post what is acceptable to protect vendor's edges and snake oil salesmen's edges on forums , otherwise you are destroying the edge of site owners .If u promise not to ask all owner's edge destroying threads to be reinstated (ones he deleted to manipulate content to scam visitors) , or talk negatively about vendors selling education in the zoo called t2w , you may be re-instated to improve content by twisted heads.

 

There is no room for the truth on the forums against sellers , if it affects the site owners marketing kickbacks , it defeats the scammers scamming vistors , vendors marketing useleless software and idiots from learning the incorrect way to trade.If you become the victim of frauds , you will be reinstated.

 

You get 14 chimpanzees as moderators trying to manipulate content and ban members and the more members are banned , the dirtier the site owner .

[tradingwizzard 10]

You should only post what is acceptable to protect vendor's edges and snake oil salesmen's edges on forums , otherwise you are destroying the edge of site owners .If u promise not to ask all owner's edge destroying threads to be reinstated (ones he deleted to manipulate content to scam visitors) , or talk negatively about vendors selling education in the zoo called t2w , you may be re-instated to improve content by twisted heads.

 

There is no room for the truth on the forums against sellers , if it affects the site owners marketing kickbacks , it defeats the scammers scamming vistors , vendors marketing useleless software and idiots from learning the incorrect way to trade.If you become the victim of frauds , you will be reinstated.

 

You get 14 chimpanzees as moderators trying to manipulate content and ban members and the more members are banned , the dirtier the site owner .

 

Alright, enough with that.....you've just been banned from here for two weeks.....coming back and behaving the same, will get you some more.

 

All the best.

 

TW

 

TW

[zupcon 10]

Alright, enough with that.....you've just been banned from here for two weeks.....coming back and behaving the same, will get you some more.

 

All the best.

 

TW

 

TW

 

I had to laugh.:rofl:

 

Ive watched oily posting absolute drivel across a range of forums for well over a decade.

 

Its rather ironic that he gets a ban now for writing something that is, in my experience at least, very close to the truth !

 

I think he has a very valid point when he talks about a vendor or site owner having an edge. If we cut to the chase, a commercial trading forum needs members with an interest in trading, and page views. If you have a mailing list of people interested in trading, that opens up the opportunity to sell them products and services. Page views opens up the oportunity of advertising revenue etc.

 

In order to attract that membership and those page views, forums need content. Practically every trading forum out there tries to maintain a balance between user generated content, and articles from vendors.

 

Vendors do not provide that content for altuistic reasons, they provide that content in order to market their products and services. If you dont believe me (and some forum owners and managers dont) try this simple experiment.

 

The next time a vendor provides you with an article for publication, tell them you'll quite happily publish, BUT they have to publish under an annonymous name, and remove all links to their websites, or mention of any product or service that they supply, or financially benefit from. Then see how many accept or reject those terms.

 

The fact that a trading forum will publish and proactively promote articles written by a vendor, providing credability and legitimacy by association, is part of the vendors edge.

 

Ive discussed this in some detail with content editors on other sites (t2w for example) and even the most hypocritical charlatans such as Tim Wilcox at t2w has admitted quite publically that the quality of vendor submitted articles is variable, and that some on occassion fall short of the standard that they would ideally wish to achieve.

 

That state of afairs, where a trading forum will knowingly accept material that it knows to be of no practical use or value to their membership, but which will lead to marketing exposure for the vendor has to be an edge. Im not saying all forums do that, but most certainly do.

 

That relationship also works both ways for the reasons that Ive outlined below.

 

If you look at the top 20-25 trading forums, and the people who own and operate them, then in some cases, you'll see that they are owned and operated by traders, who in some cases actually participate in the day to day running of the site, posting content, and generally getting involved. Some take a more hands off approach which is fine. I didnt look too hard, but I cant find a forum operated by anyone with a publically audited track record, but if you know different, I'd be interested to hear details. In other cases, the people who own and operate these forums also own and operate other non trading related forums. Their knowledge and expertese in internet marketing is equal or greater than their knowledge of trading.

 

I think its a fair assumption to make that there are forum owners out there whose knowledge of trading is limited, and it wouldnt surprise me if some had never made a trade in their entire life.

 

I also think its a fair assumption to make that there are forum owners out there with a genuine interest in trading, but who could not in all honesty claim any long term success, and whose principal incomes are derived not from their trading, but from the commercial operation of their forum businesses

 

I also think its a reasonable assumption that there may be successful traders running forums, either because they are genuinely altuistic, or they run a forum to smooth out cash flow. I certainly have unprofitable months, even unprofitable quarters, and at times Ive even taken long periods of time away from trading, so I understand why someone might want to establish a secondary source of income

 

The problem of course is that the people running forums who either do not trade, or trade unsuccessfully for a punt, cannot differentiate between "good" advice or vendor generated articles, and "bad" advice.

 

Ive been doing this stuff for over a decade now, and whilst I may be able to spot complete nonsense, and "intelligent nonsense" I am certainly NOT qualified to assess the quality or legitimacy of many vendor submitted articles. I know very little about fundementals, I know very little about psychology, I know very little about various financial instruments other than those I trade, my knowledge of options theory is sketchy, and I think its reasonable to assume that this also applies to the small minority of genuine traders who also run forums as a side line.

 

In summary, almost noone who runs a forum, and accepts vendor sumbitted marketing fluff is qualified to determine if those articles are beneficial, or detrimental to their membership, and yet, they accept and promote them. I acknowledge that complete nonsense can be screened out, and probably is by the better websites.

 

Furthermore, If you take any objective measure of retail trader performance, lets say the quartery CTFC data releases, or even performance from various audit sites or social media type platforms, then its beyond all reasonable doubt that the number of successful traders in percentage terms is fairly low, certainly far less than the fabled 5% nonsense that gets discussed ad nauseum. Therefore you have a readership that are simply not qualified to tell fact from fiction either.

 

This really is a perfect storm, in the best case we have publishers who cant differentiate good material from bad (even if they are 100% sincere in their wish to help others) providing educational material to an audience who cant differentiate fact from fiction.

 

In 80% of case we have the blind leading the blind

 

In the worst cases, we have internet marketers with no knowledge, or interest in trading, misleading and exploiting a mainly inexperienced readership who know less than zero

 

There's an edge there for the forum owner. They have a an army of vendors willing to provide free content, and a membership who wants that content, but cant really differentiate good from bad.

 

Some forum owners choose to exploit that edge. I'll give you an example. One forum owner proactively promoted a particular broker as their "preferred broker". This possibly involved falsifying membership polls, but definately involved censoring posts that where critical of the broker. The spreads offered by this particular broker where not particularly competative, the broker was illegally operating a policy on slippage that was detrimental to their clients (for which they later recieved record fines). To make matters worse, their own staff members where proactively advocating a trading method which involved opening simultneous long and short positions, and therefore paying double the spread (from which they recieved a juicy IB kickback)

 

The forum owners edge in that case is the ignorance of a certain section of their membership, who are perhaps unaware of the typical range of spreads on offer from different brokers, or the rather significant effect of that spread.

 

When a forum owner censors or deletes posts that are critical of an advertiser or strategic partner thats exploiting an edge. The forum owner has the power to create a false impression of reality. I'll give you an example. A couple of years ago, a large financial fraud was committed in Australia. Another known criminal decided that they'd replicate a similar fraud, and paid a particular trading forum to email an offer of a fraudulent ponzi scheme (already closed down in various countries) to their Australian members. IIRC the forum recieved about $1.60 for each email sent to their membership list. Every single post by membership pointing out that they where promoting a fraudulant and illegal scheme was deleted. The same forum deleted links to official state regulators including FSA, CTFC etc. That particular forum deleted links to the New York courts website, because the links provided documentation that one of their official partners and advertisers, who claimed to be a successful hedge fund manager and trader was in reality a multiple discharged bankrupt due in each case to trading losses, and had actually been charged and found guilty of common law fraud.

 

However, the illusion to the sites membership simply had to be maintained, and this was achieved through censorship.

 

Are you serously trying to tell me that the ability to act in that way isnt an edge for an unscrupulous forum owner ?

 

Obviously some forum owners have a little more integrity and choose to exercise a little more restraint, but the fact remains, there is an edge that can be exploited, and is exploited if the forum operates commercially. There's nothing wrong with that, its not illegal, but it is most certainly an edge.

 

Lets take a hypothetical situation. Lets assume that a brand new member with one post start a thread at your forum, and posts unsubstantiated claims that your main advertiser FXLulz have cheated them in some way. A bunch of other people join in slagging off FXLulz reporting problems.

 

You have no idea these claims are true. The other members slagging off FXLulz are probably:

 

a) unhappy traders who dont actually trade with FXLulz but hate all brokers and grabbing the opportunity to stick the boot in

b) Just posting for lulz

c) Sock puppet accounts paid by FXLulz's major competitor to discredit them

d) Legitimate traders with a genuine grievance

 

The official company rep from FXLulz calls or emails you about the thread. He claims that the complaint is completely unsubstantiated, that the person who posted it is a known trouble maker, he didnt lose 165,000 dollars when they slipped his stop, as he only has a $200 account, he used 500:1 leverage and placed a stop 1 pip away etc etc

 

So its now your latest members word, against FXLulz word ? and advertising from FXLulz pays your salary. Are you really telling me that doesnt influence your decision making ? I'll be frank, it would definately influence mine.

 

Lets assume that you are a man of absolute integrity (and I'm sure you are), and you tell the FXLulz representative that your members have the right to free speach, that you wont intervene, and the thread must stay warts and all, and that you will not sucumb to threats of losing advertising.

 

FXLulz pull their advertising, and a week later, you get a letter from FXLulz legal department threatening high court action, or an injunction, or veiled threats not to walk in the woods alone. What do you do then, call up your lawyers and instruct them to accept service, and spend god knows how many thousands of dollars fighting a court action to protect the rights of one member who might possibly be lying or confused, or a shill paid to discredit the guys who used to pay your bills ?

 

You might be a man of absolute integrity who would do that. However, its a matter of public record that certain forum owners would not act in that way. They would delete the thread even if true, becasue its not in their commercial interests. I hate using t2w as an example, they are after all at the black end of the spectrum, but their "CEO" has publically admitted that they delete and censor to protect their commercial interests, and I cant blame them really.

 

Im not really sure that I fully agree with oilys conclusion that "the more members are banned , the dirtier the site owner", after all members get banned for a variety of different reasons, but I think if you narrow that down a little, and look at those banned for expressing opinions that differ from those of the forum owner, particularly if those opinions are detrimental to the owners financial interest, then he might have a point.

 

Even you have to see the funny side, oily says site owners/operators ban people for telling the truth, and he tells the truth, and then you ban him, and you'll probably ban me too, which is no problem, Ive just wasted 30 minutes of my time and I need to a) make a cup of tea and b) get on with some work

[tradingwizzard 10]

I had to laugh.:rofl:

 

Ive watched oily posting absolute drivel across a range of forums for well over a decade.

 

Its rather ironic that he gets a ban now for writing something that is, in my experience at least, very close to the truth !

 

I think he has a very valid point when he talks about a vendor or site owner having an edge. If we cut to the chase, a commercial trading forum needs members with an interest in trading, and page views. If you have a mailing list of people interested in trading, that opens up the opportunity to sell them products and services. Page views opens up the oportunity of advertising revenue etc.

 

In order to attract that membership and those page views, forums need content. Practically every trading forum out there tries to maintain a balance between user generated content, and articles from vendors.

 

Vendors do not provide that content for altuistic reasons, they provide that content in order to market their products and services. If you dont believe me (and some forum owners and managers dont) try this simple experiment.

 

The next time a vendor provides you with an article for publication, tell them you'll quite happily publish, BUT they have to publish under an annonymous name, and remove all links to their websites, or mention of any product or service that they supply, or financially benefit from. Then see how many accept or reject those terms.

 

The fact that a trading forum will publish and proactively promote articles written by a vendor, providing credability and legitimacy by association, is part of the vendors edge.

 

Ive discussed this in some detail with content editors on other sites (t2w for example) and even the most hypocritical charlatans such as Tim Wilcox at t2w has admitted quite publically that the quality of vendor submitted articles is variable, and that some on occassion fall short of the standard that they would ideally wish to achieve.

 

That state of afairs, where a trading forum will knowingly accept material that it knows to be of no practical use or value to their membership, but which will lead to marketing exposure for the vendor has to be an edge. Im not saying all forums do that, but most certainly do.

 

That relationship also works both ways for the reasons that Ive outlined below.

 

If you look at the top 20-25 trading forums, and the people who own and operate them, then in some cases, you'll see that they are owned and operated by traders, who in some cases actually participate in the day to day running of the site, posting content, and generally getting involved. Some take a more hands off approach which is fine. I didnt look too hard, but I cant find a forum operated by anyone with a publically audited track record, but if you know different, I'd be interested to hear details. In other cases, the people who own and operate these forums also own and operate other non trading related forums. Their knowledge and expertese in internet marketing is equal or greater than their knowledge of trading.

 

I think its a fair assumption to make that there are forum owners out there whose knowledge of trading is limited, and it wouldnt surprise me if some had never made a trade in their entire life.

 

I also think its a fair assumption to make that there are forum owners out there with a genuine interest in trading, but who could not in all honesty claim any long term success, and whose principal incomes are derived not from their trading, but from the commercial operation of their forum businesses

 

I also think its a reasonable assumption that there may be successful traders running forums, either because they are genuinely altuistic, or they run a forum to smooth out cash flow. I certainly have unprofitable months, even unprofitable quarters, and at times Ive even taken long periods of time away from trading, so I understand why someone might want to establish a secondary source of income

 

The problem of course is that the people running forums who either do not trade, or trade unsuccessfully for a punt, cannot differentiate between "good" advice or vendor generated articles, and "bad" advice.

 

Ive been doing this stuff for over a decade now, and whilst I may be able to spot complete nonsense, and "intelligent nonsense" I am certainly NOT qualified to assess the quality or legitimacy of many vendor submitted articles. I know very little about fundementals, I know very little about psychology, I know very little about various financial instruments other than those I trade, my knowledge of options theory is sketchy, and I think its reasonable to assume that this also applies to the small minority of genuine traders who also run forums as a side line.

 

In summary, almost noone who runs a forum, and accepts vendor sumbitted marketing fluff is qualified to determine if those articles are beneficial, or detrimental to their membership, and yet, they accept and promote them. I acknowledge that complete nonsense can be screened out, and probably is by the better websites.

 

Furthermore, If you take any objective measure of retail trader performance, lets say the quartery CTFC data releases, or even performance from various audit sites or social media type platforms, then its beyond all reasonable doubt that the number of successful traders in percentage terms is fairly low, certainly far less than the fabled 5% nonsense that gets discussed ad nauseum. Therefore you have a readership that are simply not qualified to tell fact from fiction either.

 

This really is a perfect storm, in the best case we have publishers who cant differentiate good material from bad (even if they are 100% sincere in their wish to help others) providing educational material to an audience who cant differentiate fact from fiction.

 

In 80% of case we have the blind leading the blind

 

In the worst cases, we have internet marketers with no knowledge, or interest in trading, misleading and exploiting a mainly inexperienced readership who know less than zero

 

There's an edge there for the forum owner. They have a an army of vendors willing to provide free content, and a membership who wants that content, but cant really differentiate good from bad.

 

Some forum owners choose to exploit that edge. I'll give you an example. One forum owner proactively promoted a particular broker as their "preferred broker". This possibly involved falsifying membership polls, but definately involved censoring posts that where critical of the broker. The spreads offered by this particular broker where not particularly competative, the broker was illegally operating a policy on slippage that was detrimental to their clients (for which they later recieved record fines). To make matters worse, their own staff members where proactively advocating a trading method which involved opening simultneous long and short positions, and therefore paying double the spread (from which they recieved a juicy IB kickback)

 

The forum owners edge in that case is the ignorance of a certain section of their membership, who are perhaps unaware of the typical range of spreads on offer from different brokers, or the rather significant effect of that spread.

 

When a forum owner censors or deletes posts that are critical of an advertiser or strategic partner thats exploiting an edge. The forum owner has the power to create a false impression of reality. I'll give you an example. A couple of years ago, a large financial fraud was committed in Australia. Another known criminal decided that they'd replicate a similar fraud, and paid a particular trading forum to email an offer of a fraudulent ponzi scheme (already closed down in various countries) to their Australian members. IIRC the forum recieved about $1.60 for each email sent to their membership list. Every single post by membership pointing out that they where promoting a fraudulant and illegal scheme was deleted. The same forum deleted links to official state regulators including FSA, CTFC etc. That particular forum deleted links to the New York courts website, because the links provided documentation that one of their official partners and advertisers, who claimed to be a successful hedge fund manager and trader was in reality a multiple discharged bankrupt due in each case to trading losses, and had actually been charged and found guilty of common law fraud.

 

However, the illusion to the sites membership simply had to be maintained, and this was achieved through censorship.

 

Are you serously trying to tell me that the ability to act in that way isnt an edge for an unscrupulous forum owner ?

 

Obviously some forum owners have a little more integrity and choose to exercise a little more restraint, but the fact remains, there is an edge that can be exploited, and is exploited if the forum operates commercially. There's nothing wrong with that, its not illegal, but it is most certainly an edge.

 

Lets take a hypothetical situation. Lets assume that a brand new member with one post start a thread at your forum, and posts unsubstantiated claims that your main advertiser FXLulz have cheated them in some way. A bunch of other people join in slagging off FXLulz reporting problems.

 

You have no idea these claims are true. The other members slagging off FXLulz are probably:

 

a) unhappy traders who dont actually trade with FXLulz but hate all brokers and grabbing the opportunity to stick the boot in

b) Just posting for lulz

c) Sock puppet accounts paid by FXLulz's major competitor to discredit them

d) Legitimate traders with a genuine grievance

 

The official company rep from FXLulz calls or emails you about the thread. He claims that the complaint is completely unsubstantiated, that the person who posted it is a known trouble maker, he didnt lose 165,000 dollars when they slipped his stop, as he only has a $200 account, he used 500:1 leverage and placed a stop 1 pip away etc etc

 

So its now your latest members word, against FXLulz word ? and advertising from FXLulz pays your salary. Are you really telling me that doesnt influence your decision making ? I'll be frank, it would definately influence mine.

 

Lets assume that you are a man of absolute integrity (and I'm sure you are), and you tell the FXLulz representative that your members have the right to free speach, that you wont intervene, and the thread must stay warts and all, and that you will not sucumb to threats of losing advertising.

 

FXLulz pull their advertising, and a week later, you get a letter from FXLulz legal department threatening high court action, or an injunction, or veiled threats not to walk in the woods alone. What do you do then, call up your lawyers and instruct them to accept service, and spend god knows how many thousands of dollars fighting a court action to protect the rights of one member who might possibly be lying or confused, or a shill paid to discredit the guys who used to pay your bills ?

 

You might be a man of absolute integrity who would do that. However, its a matter of public record that certain forum owners would not act in that way. They would delete the thread even if true, becasue its not in their commercial interests. I hate using t2w as an example, they are after all at the black end of the spectrum, but their "CEO" has publically admitted that they delete and censor to protect their commercial interests, and I cant blame them really.

 

Im not really sure that I fully agree with oilys conclusion that "the more members are banned , the dirtier the site owner", after all members get banned for a variety of different reasons, but I think if you narrow that down a little, and look at those banned for expressing opinions that differ from those of the forum owner, particularly if those opinions are detrimental to the owners financial interest, then he might have a point.

 

Even you have to see the funny side, oily says site owners/operators ban people for telling the truth, and he tells the truth, and then you ban him, and you'll probably ban me too, which is no problem, Ive just wasted 30 minutes of my time and I need to a) make a cup of tea and b) get on with some work

 

yes, you have a point, this is why I banned him only for 14 days and not more

TW

[bobcollett 10]

Alright, enough with that.....you've just been banned from here for two weeks.....coming back and behaving the same, will get you some more.

 

Well Oily,

In my about 8 years on this forum , its the first time I have witnessed a banning.

Its really interesting. :haha::haha::haha::haha:

You have made some very insulting comments:shocked:

So you deserve to be banned .

But its only for 2 weeks :missy:

Perhaps you should write a book on your experience

And look forward to your return :did I say that?:

bobc

[zupcon 10]

You have made some very insulting comments:shocked:

 

Who did he insult ?

 

He quite acurately points out thats there's a symbiotoc relationship between forum owners and vendors, and that the relationship is mutually beneficial to both parties.

 

The forum owner gets free content of a quality thats reasonable enough to satisy the requirements of the majority of the readers of that material. The vendor get exposure to potential customers, and social verification that they are considered by the forum owner to be providing a legitimate, and valued product or service.

 

He quite righly points out that anyone who questions the legitimacy of the vendors material, or posts a contradictory opinion is potentially acting in a way detrimental to the interests of the vendor, and the foum owner. I grant you, this is a complex issue, and situations can arise where the public crusifiction of a vendor may be in the forum owners interests (if for example a fradulent vendor goes into liquidation without paying his bill, and the public trashing of that vendor generates page hits a forum owner may wish to turn a blind eye)

 

All of those points are fact, and its been openly admitted by the management of numerous forums that they act in their own commercial best interests. A forum owner who operates as an IB for FXLulz will not take kindly to posts pointing out FXLulz's appalling track record with regulators etc. The site owner will not take kindly to posts pointing out the astranomical stupidity of following methods advocated by that forum in a deliberate attempt to trick people into paying double FXLulz's spread.

 

Oily talks about "dirty" and corrupt forum owners. He's being a little unfair in tarring all owners with the same brush, but it is a matter of public record that at least one forum owner has been investigated, tried, and jailed for their part in pump and dump schemes. I stronly suspect that a similar fate could await others if the regulatory authorates or law enforcement recieved enough complaints. Even the folks at the t2w zoo openly admit that there's a spectrum of corruption in the industry ranging from light grey, to jet black.

 

The idea that all forum owners are whiter than white (or slightly grey) is ludicrous. I can give you numerous examples where NFA registered sites blatently breached rules and guidelines, simply because they can, and the gains exceed any slap on the wrist they may recieve if investigated and found wanting.

 

His comment about appointing chimpanzees as moderators is a little unfair. Many moderators do a good job in difficult circumstances. However, lets be honest, moderators are generally the people who are manipulating content, and censoring posts that are critical of advertisers. They may only be following orders, or applying site guidelines imposed by those above them, but they are the people getting their hands dirty and implimenting these directives. Lets be honest, most of the constraints that apply to whistleblowers in regular employment, such as the loss of ones job/salary/financial security/career advancement does not apply to an unpaid moderators position. Im sure if moderator X at forum Y refused to censor posts, and ban members considered disruptive by the owner, he wouldnt be blacklisted in the industry, or able to provide financially for his family. There's no good reason why a moderator should act in the way they do, and they act in this way due to personal choice, not eternal presure.

 

Whilst it is certainly derogatory calling a moderator a chimpanzee, I think he was right to draw attention to the role of moderators in these case, and I've seen people called far worse things without being banned

 

Lets not forget that its generally moderators who ban members too (although in t2w's case it was their "CEO" who banned me although someone probably had to show the dimwitted oaf which button to press)

 

I thought oilys post was quite thought provoking.