Trading Coaches

[SIUYA 11]

An interesting article.....

Weather or not you like/believe in it ....

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-11/traders-beat-market-indexes-borrowing-tools-from-sports.html

 

 

Has business picked up from institutions Rande?

 

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A side thought.....

For those who think there is 'smart*' money out there looking to screw you (a crappy term IMHO).....have a think about this.

If this sort of stuff has been known for years, and discussed in retail forms for years and the large guys are only just stumbling across it (I dont believe they really are simply discovering it) then it should make you question the idea of smart money - maybe its just that the easy money has gone (or moved).

(* Not to confuse smart money with scammers and sharks)

[tradingwizzard 10]

An interesting article.....

Weather or not you like/believe in it ....

 

Traders Beat Market Indexes Borrowing Tools From Sports - Bloomberg

 

 

Has business picked up from institutions Rande?

 

//////////////////

A side thought.....

For those who think there is 'smart*' money out there looking to screw you (a crappy term IMHO).....have a think about this.

If this sort of stuff has been known for years, and discussed in retail forms for years and the large guys are only just stumbling across it (I dont believe they really are simply discovering it) then it should make you question the idea of smart money - maybe its just that the easy money has gone (or moved).

(* Not to confuse smart money with scammers and sharks)

 

agree with your here, there is no "big guys" gunning for your stops.....you are gunning for them either through lack of knowledge or psychological instability

 

TW

[SIUYA 11]

agree with your here, there is no "big guys" gunning for your stops.....you are gunning for them either through lack of knowledge or psychological instability

 

TW

 

Hi TW - there are times people do try and set off stops make no mistake. As a small guy there are not out to get you though - its just the market - and they are not necessarily any smarter than you, and they also a looking to stop out bigger players than the single retail guy. Plus there is a difference between 'front running', margin squeezes etc - even the big guys get caught in that.

 

You are right - if one thinks that as a retail guy and can show it happens enough then allow for it. Easy....that makes you the smart one.

 

I trade FX, and sure I have been stopped out sometimes right near a top or bottom, to me its worth it rather than getting caught in something that runs away. Its a cost.

I have also been nearly stopped out by a tick or two but not, only to have something run my way. Swings and roundabouts.

 

but the idea of smart money out to get you - baloney - smart money has better things to do.

 

Anyways - it will be interesting if Rande was able to shed insight into if there has been a move into more institutional high end coaching, OR if this was just an untimely article, OR nothing is really new.

[fxeconomist 11]

I stopped out several times but keep my patience and wait for my luck again and again. Eventually you get what your are haunting on, even in forex. Guess it can be kinda of luck but nobody abolished it so far..

[roypeck 10]

yes, i agree.. we have to keep patience to achieve anything.. and expertise comes with time..

Microgaming

Edited September 26, 2014 by roypeck

[zdo 20]

Hi SUIYA and all,

 

...at the risk of getting banned, here is something peripherally related to the 'coachiness' of trading... it's also somewhat related to the social ewave of participation rates in trading (and in forums, etc) I've discussed elsewhere

http://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/spurioustail.pdf

[SIUYA 11]

kinda reminds me of Peter Thiel - Peter Thiel: Competition Is for Losers - WSJ

 

dont try and compete unless you have an uneven playing field or some exceptional talent.

[zdo 20]

kinda reminds me of Peter Thiel - Peter Thiel: Competition Is for Losers - WSJ

 

 

SIUYA, I’m getting a whiff of the associations you just made… and as usual I will trash or ignore them… what’s new, right? (hey you do it too )

 

You know (don’t you?) that with that link you just argued with the bottom of your OP … and more importantly, you shifted the conversation from with those around the cusp of ‘profitable’ / ie those trying to enter or stay in the 78 to 97% ‘surviving pareto’ to those at or past the cusp of the top 3%

Hey jack! That is verboten on TL … it is an unspoken rule (that they rarely even break on ET). You must stay with the ‘voice’ of trading that is by and for those clustered around and attempting to break cleanly out of the bottom 78% ‘loosers’ into the ‘surfivers’ ‘pareto’ that make up the ‘middle’ ~ 19% of traders…

There is only a tiny audience for those who attempt to post for those at or near the top cusp… or for the weensy teensy group that will actually attempt to authentically jump the ‘turtles’ (as in the top illustration in your link) to the third tiny top tier of the trading equivalent of ‘monopoly profits’

(… and, btw, posts for those at or near the top cusp will quickly get corrupted by posts from the mindset of the ‘voice of trading’…)

 

 

 

…

Back on topic to your first link in the OP… what is the most salient phrase or point in that article? To me, it is the part about “Neurological [* ] studies show that financial losses are more than twice as painful emotionally as the same size gain is ‘pleasurable’” [the ‘single quotes’ around “pleasurable” are mine]

I have yet to see a trading coach (in here or anywhere else) conspicuously acknowledge and confront that (… and relate it to its parallels in sympathetic and parasympathetic ‘burnout’ …or to its parallels in Basedowoid and Addisinoid overtraining,… etc.).

They never address Why - for most traders at that ‘voice of trading’ cusp or level discussed above - what is statistically ‘good’ performance at, for instance, a 60% hit rate with well controlled losses will NEVER be ‘enough’ subjectively - no matter how many or what kind of freakin ‘coaches’ they have. I know for dam sure it was not enough for me - which is why long ago I went 'innovative' full bore for 5 years demanding 80% ++ hit rates from all but a few systems in my portfolio of systems.

 

Jmo’s SUIYA… but, all in all, the content of that first link is dated rehashing of bullshit hypnosis. The “large guys” are NOT discovering / “stumbling across” ‘coaching performance (back) up’. ‘Coachy’ approaches are faddish, sparodic, and attractive to only a small sample of managers.

 

… and the academic shills paid by the scientific ‘dictatorship’ run by pharmaceutical corporations, etc. to prefix “neuro” in front of everything* and ‘study’ things like “find correlations between, for example, a steady heart rate and astute investment decisions” [from link in OP] .

OMG! a steady heart rate is NOT where it’s at!

Rapid recovery from elevated ‘heart rate’, etc IS closing on where it’s at!

… and btw I have also yet to see a trading coach who would throttle back emphasis on ‘mental fixes’ and ‘progress’ to preserve ‘flow’ - which is really where it IS at!

 

(… and OMG! “investment decisions” from somewhere in OP link are NOT “trading decisions”… )

 

… and jmo there is “ ‘smart money’ out there looking to screw you “ - they are the top 3 % ‘pareto’ who strive to ‘monopolize’ ( that term taken from the article linked to in your most recent post... that is actually about businesses, not individual performance workers …)

 

:helloooo: Sorry I don’t have time to be ‘sweet’ and ‘supportive’ right now…

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled ‘disorderly dismount’

 

zdo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*bannabl offnsz

“Neuro-______ seems to provide not only a desperate ultimate attempt at being original in science where everything has been said and done, but, morover [sic], a guaranty of attracting attention and simulating importance.”

The Neurocritic: The use and abuse of the prefix neuro- in the decades of the BRAIN

(

The Neurocritic: NeuroPsychoEconomics!

Neurocoaching? | Melancholia and The Infinite Neurocritic

The Neurocritic: Journomarketing of Neurobollocks

)

[SIUYA 11]

"You know (don’t you?) that with that link you just argued with the bottom of your OP"

 

I see your point.

my point on this is more related to the idea that - what many see as trading is in fact market making or making money via commissions or other. This is different to being a monopoly, (related maybe yes) or being an outright scam. Those that think the 3% consists of these guys, or that these guys are out to get you, or that the 3% are out to get you...are wrong

 

so often the cross talking blurrs the lines especially for the retail punter. However, for many large trading firms as well, I have always argued that there are very few who actually 'trade' as such anyways. So the numbers probably remain the same.....

 

the ways of making money as Thiel points out is not so much in joining the crowd with 'disruptive new tech - its about finding a monoploy edge - get rid of the romance of mastering the market.....simply focus on making money, then offering marketing lip service and a sales pitch as to how you make it. The smart money is not out to out trade you it simply sells you the pitch. You either become a muppet or not and that is a matter of costs and business and not so much to do with trading.

 

......

so getting back on the original post of the discovery of coaches....imho it is much the same. jingoistic etc. + academic.

 

As to how to get to the 3% - been said before. start with a plan, work it out, tailor it to yourself. blah blah....do that then maybe you have half a chance if you dont have some natural inbuilt talent....and even if you do all the above then maybe thats when a coach might help when in a slump. (I think this is the part that relates to your point of 80%++ hit rates if I read you correctly)

 

To me - The 3% - dont involve those in monopolies, or sales and they are not out to get you in the way you think. They do their own thing (even though others believe its a ll a dog eat dog world that mindset is not where the money is made for those traders who succeed.)

 

They are also not simply a random selection as a result of large numbers....there is some consistency there, and if it is simply luck then we are all scrwed....and I would take luck overt talent any day.

 

it is all talking sub-sets that confuses the issue.

(hows the writing going?)

[zdo 20]

my point on this is more related to the idea that - what many see as trading is in fact market making or making money via commissions or other. This is different to being a monopoly, (related maybe yes) or being an outright scam. Those that think the 3% consists of these guys, or that these guys are out to get you, or that the 3% are out to get you...are wrong

 

so often the cross talking blurrs the lines especially for the retail punter. However, for many large trading firms as well, I have always argued that there are very few who actually 'trade' as such anyways. So the numbers probably remain the same.....

 

the 'perceptual blurs' that the 'voice of trading' traders have btwn real traders, and the agencies and brokers that spring up to exploit them, may be much more extant than I imagine or am in touch with. But I'm still trying to figure out why you would bring this stuff into this conversation/topic.

“it is all talking sub-sets that confuses the issue.” SUIYA.

I asked myself "what does this remind me of?” and a memory from long ago about the subgroup who consciously believe they aren't trying to screw you but really are unconsciously trying to screw you from a robert ringer book popped up... if you insist on continuing with this aspect, please make some clear distinctions for us around business and commerce and how various ways of trading fits in to that... and then tie it somehow back to the topic, how all that is coachable.

 

….trying to get back on topic ....

maybe thats when a coach might help when in a slump. (I think this is the part that relates to your point of 80%++ hit rates if I read you correctly)

sht, SU, I don't know if you read me correctly or not

Let me rehash Re: “Neurological studies show that financial losses are more than twice as painful emotionally as the same size gain is ‘pleasurable’” [the ‘single quotes’ around “pleasurable” are mine]

There is a (cyclically new again annual rehash) thread nearby that brings up the old “95% lose” question - again. My 'stats' have it closer to 80% but the point here is of whatever percentage the industry measures as 'losers', a large portion of those do not really 'lose' as in blow out... 30 + %, of traders I've met over the years that turned out to be losers were really promising (... guys who I could tell just by looking at them and listening to them that they had what it takes to 'select' good trades...) and their PL statements didn't turn out to be red on the bottom line. Instead, they turned out to be 'faders away' from the game.... and most of them NEVER realized that's what happened to them. In my current level of understanding, I'm saying that at a structural level, they were never able to fully acknowledge and accommodate to “financial losses are more than twice as painful emotionally as the same size gain”. In my own trading, the only way I was able to stay in the game was to reach for and attain a higher hit rate and smaller stop size than any crowd meme in the 'voice of trading' of trading forums will allow the possibility of .

 

So, again, in that 78% who don't make it, a large percentage do blow out. But a large percentage doesn't blow out – they fade out because of the bound flow they bring to the game to start with... bound flow that is not acknowledged by the gurus of the voice of trading. The 'voice of trading' won't hear of it, but dealing with this is far more important - ultimately - than learning wackoff or any other of many wonderful methods...

… so to the coaching part of the topic

Find us a coach on this planet who truly demands raising acknowledgement of “Neurological studies show that financial losses are more than twice as painful emotionally as the same size gain is pleasurable” and who knows how and will really work with that structurally instead of behaviorally … show us a coach who really understands ( the largely unacknowledged) impact of pain throughout any and all performance work.

Remember this audience is largely those trying to pass out of the group below 78% to above 78%. They do not really realize qualitatively how 'winning is hard'. Where's the adequate coaching for that?

 

... so while for those already firmly away from the 'cusp' of winners / losers, “a coach might help when in a slump”

ie even for them , the available 'coaching' on this planet is statistically not worth a try.

 

re: “how's the writing?” It is not 'safe' for me to write freely herein about it.

 

:missy:

“My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular.” Adlai Stevenson

[SIUYA 11]

Zdo - if you think that most of the traders who dont make it fail because they dont acknowledge certain fundamental things - such as the emotional gain v pain of winners v losses....when you read the article, you might find that this is exactly what a coach might help point out. That in the stats there are certain emotional triggers or reasons a trader has gone from winner to loser....or is in a slump.

Now many coaches might not actually be good at pointing that out, recognising it or being able to provide a solution to a trader....sometimes a coach is not what you need.

 

You are really commenting then on the quality of coaching.

 

Like every profession there are good ones and bad ones, suitable ones and unsuitable ones for certain styles/strategies and personalities. Scammers, snake oil salemen and those that pitch to the amateur v professional (Hence my then linking of items that require first a definition of what your are trying to get at....what game you are playing and who the opponent really is.)

 

ultimately this profession requires a commitment and a real motivation to make it work. Even in sports if the motivation aint there, a coach might be able to bring it back, but all the talent in the world without the real motivation and drive --- which can be lost over time....wont save you. Note: a lot of drive and motivation from some is simply wheel spinning and searching for answers rather than asking questions.

[wmck6167 10]

The existence of "smart money" might be a good tool or design for you to handle the risks, from my point of view. In interactive system, the only one you can control is "you", but most of time, you found you really can not control youself. Purposely design a tool or system to control self is indeed not so bad. "smart money" might help you to forsee the risks in the future, benefits on control on "self". It's existence may not be so improtance for other side, but for your side, maybe some help, I think. Cheers.

[shuvo7748 10]

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